Nurses striking

[instasham13]

What's the thoughts on the new situation for Scottish NHS staff. From what I grasp of it this years pay offer has been imposed which puts a top band 5 in Scotland at £35,365. The Scottish Goverment have agreed to start negotiates for 23-24 pay offer early and have the offer communicated before end of Feb. I read there's a commitment also to a double digit pay offer over the next 2 years.

Doing my calculations if it's 5% this year and 5% in 2025 as a minimum double digit pay offer that puts the top band 5 salary for a nurse in Scotland at £38,900. That's basically hours so weekends, nights worked would top this up but what are people's thought on a salary in the region of 38k for a nurse?

My personal feeling is that it's about 2k too short.

 

[Former_Antelopee]

What's the thoughts on the new situation for Scottish NHS staff. From what I grasp of it this years pay offer has been imposed which puts a top band 5 in Scotland at £35,365. The Scottish Goverment have agreed to start negotiates for 23-24 pay offer early and have the offer communicated before end of Feb. I read there's a commitment also to a double digit pay offer over the next 2 years.

Doing my calculations if it's 5% this year and 5% in 2025 as a minimum double digit pay offer that puts the top band 5 salary for a nurse in Scotland at £38,900. That's basically hours so weekends, nights worked would top this up but what are people's thought on a salary in the region of 38k for a nurse?

My personal feeling is that it's about 2k too short.

I think 38k is very good just looking it up band 5 nurses 2-4years qualified atm can get up to 29k? So 38k imo is a big difference, I do think after that amount time of time then they should be on higher than 29k. But think 40k+ should be for more specialised/senior nurses. My uncle is a nurse, has done extra training and gets 40k a year and his job doesn’t sound bad.
Also aren’t NHS pensions great? someone who works in pensions told me this and said it’s a huge benefit that rarely anyone else gets anymore.
I don’t understand this whole working in Aldi would pay more as that’s not true.

 

[struggs123]

I think 38k is very good just looking it up band 5 nurses 2-4years qualified atm can get up to 29k? So 38k imo is a big difference, I do think after that amount time of time then they should be on higher than 29k. But think 40k+ should be for more specialised/senior nurses. My uncle is a nurse, has done extra training and gets 40k a year and his job doesn’t sound bad.
Also aren’t NHS pensions great? someone who works in pensions told me this and said it’s a huge benefit that rarely anyone else gets anymore.
I don’t understand this whole working in Aldi would pay more as that’s not true.

The pensions are very good but not as good as they used to be. I think when people are struggling in the here and now a pension which you may or may not be alive to claim isn't such a big draw for staying in a job as once was. Everyone I know who does agency adds to a pension but also manages to save more which in turn means they'll have investments beyond a pension like a property.

I agree with the Aldi thing that it's not the same salary, but for a newly qualified nurse the take home is fairly similar unless you've racked up some unsocial hours etc. Of course earning potential is greater as a nurse but I think when people are feeling so burnt out and hate their jobs so much its hard to see the bigger picture and to wait around for the future- if you can earn similar in a less stressful job why wouldn't you. This isn't to say those in retail don't work hard, but it's not a bad thing to say its not as pressurised and stressful as being a nurse on an understaffed ward.

The pay in Scotland seems like a really positive step, I do think part of the issue is the downgrading of jobs to lower bands even though the responsibility stays the same. Some of the more desirable band 6 jobs were remanded to band 5s for the same duties and responsibility etc as they knew there'd be applicants; for those they'll be underpaid still but it's part of a bigger issue and any progress isn't to be sniffed at as other areas aren't perfect.

 

[instasham13]

The pensions are very good but not as good as they used to be. I think when people are struggling in the here and now a pension which you may or may not be alive to claim isn't such a big draw for staying in a job as once was. Everyone I know who does agency adds to a pension but also manages to save more which in turn means they'll have investments beyond a pension like a property.

I agree with the Aldi thing that it's not the same salary, but for a newly qualified nurse the take home is fairly similar unless you've racked up some unsocial hours etc. Of course earning potential is greater as a nurse but I think when people are feeling so burnt out and hate their jobs so much its hard to see the bigger picture and to wait around for the future- if you can earn similar in a less stressful job why wouldn't you. This isn't to say those in retail don't work hard, but it's not a bad thing to say its not as pressurised and stressful as being a nurse on an understaffed ward.

The pay in Scotland seems like a really positive step, I do think part of the issue is the downgrading of jobs to lower bands even though the responsibility stays the same. Some of the more desirable band 6 jobs were remanded to band 5s for the same duties and responsibility etc as they knew there'd be applicants; for those they'll be underpaid still but it's part of a bigger issue and any progress isn't to be sniffed at as other areas aren't perfect.

I really hope they will also stand by their commitment to look at agenda for change as there are some band 5 roles that should deffo be a 6.

I think there should atleast be a difference between clinical and clerical in terms of banding. There needs to be recognition of being a degree educated professional.

I say 38k is a little too low but in my opinion only by a little. 40k seems about right in my opinion. Will be interesting to see what teachers in Scotland get from their strikes as I believe their top salary for a normal teacher is 40-42k I'd need to check that though. Can't quite remember the exact figure and I've no idea how many years it takes to reach that level.

The new 2015 pension is not as good as the previous one. Its linked to the state pension age and is a career avaege appose to final salary. The amount the NHS pay in is good I think though but I believe it qpuld be heavily taxed if you were to take it before state pension age where as most people on the old pension can go at 55 with a lump sum.

 

[struggs123]

I really hope they will also stand by their commitment to look at agenda for change as there are some band 5 roles that should deffo be a 6.

I think there should atleast be a difference between clinical and clerical in terms of banding. There needs to be recognition of being a degree educated professional.

I say 38k is a little too low but in my opinion only by a little. 40k seems about right in my opinion. Will be interesting to see what teachers in Scotland get from their strikes as I believe their top salary for a normal teacher is 40-42k I'd need to check that though. Can't quite remember the exact figure and I've no idea how many years it takes to reach that level.

I think what happens in the NHS is clerical roles of which there's external competition for are generally fairly highly banded because they have to compete with other departments and private sector for staff; eg procurement, finance etc. For healthcare specific roles like A&E receptionist, ward clerks etc they're low bands as there isn't direct competition. It's really unfair. One of my close friends is a band 6 procurement officer, by her own admission she can work at home most days, the work isn't overly stressful and she has just a few years of experience; compare that to a ward clerk or receptionist who are usually rushed off their feet and dealing with often rude and aggressive patients. Not saying people like my friend should be paid less, but rather the disparity between the admin Roles should be addressed as well as that between healthcare staff and admin.

 

[instasham13]

I think what happens in the NHS is clerical roles of which there's external competition for are generally fairly highly banded because they have to compete with other departments and private sector for staff; eg procurement, finance etc. For healthcare specific roles like A&E receptionist, ward clerks etc they're low bands as there isn't direct competition. It's really unfair. One of my close friends is a band 6 procurement officer, by her own admission she can work at home most days, the work isn't overly stressful and she has just a few years of experience; compare that to a ward clerk or receptionist who are usually rushed off their feet and dealing with often rude and aggressive patients. Not saying people like my friend should be paid less, but rather the disparity between the admin Roles should be addressed as well as that between healthcare staff and admin.

I know what you're saying. I think the salaries for these band 5/6 admin roles need to be that of the private sector to attract and keep people but from the point of view of of a dietician or nurse etc it's a bit disheartening. Nothing stopping nurses applying for these clerical roles for the same salary and many do but if everyone done that there would be no nurses left (exaggeration but you know what I mean) and that's why nurses and other allied healthcare professionals are fighting for recognition also.

 

[emm]

I think 38k is very good just looking it up band 5 nurses 2-4years qualified atm can get up to 29k? So 38k imo is a big difference, I do think after that amount time of time then they should be on higher than 29k. But think 40k+ should be for more specialised/senior nurses. My uncle is a nurse, has done extra training and gets 40k a year and his job doesn’t sound bad.
Also aren’t NHS pensions great? someone who works in pensions told me this and said it’s a huge benefit that rarely anyone else gets anymore.
I don’t understand this whole working in Aldi would pay more as that’s not true.

I think in terms of "Aldi pays more" it is more about the stress etc and the fact that the exact hours are paid, I know people who worked in care that just had to stay more hours to not leave colleagues alone and it was not paid

 

[struggs123]

I know what you're saying. I think the salaries for these band 5/6 admin roles need to be that of the private sector to attract and keep people but from the point of view of of a dietician or nurse etc it's a bit disheartening. Nothing stopping nurses applying for these clerical roles for the same salary and many do but if everyone done that there would be no nurses left (exaggeration but you know what I mean) and that's why nurses and other allied healthcare professionals are fighting for recognition also.

Oh I agree definitely, I was a nurse but left fairly recently, I always felt a bit aggrieved by it. But that's why they do it because they feel they can, but the mass exodus hopefully demonstrates to the gov that we won't tolerate it any more, pay a fair wage or people will continue to leave.

 

[Former_Antelopee]

The pensions are very good but not as good as they used to be. I think when people are struggling in the here and now a pension which you may or may not be alive to claim isn't such a big draw for staying in a job as once was. Everyone I know who does agency adds to a pension but also manages to save more which in turn means they'll have investments beyond a pension like a property.

I agree with the Aldi thing that it's not the same salary, but for a newly qualified nurse the take home is fairly similar unless you've racked up some unsocial hours etc. Of course earning potential is greater as a nurse but I think when people are feeling so burnt out and hate their jobs so much its hard to see the bigger picture and to wait around for the future- if you can earn similar in a less stressful job why wouldn't you. This isn't to say those in retail don't work hard, but it's not a bad thing to say its not as pressurised and stressful as being a nurse on an understaffed ward.

The pay in Scotland seems like a really positive step, I do think part of the issue is the downgrading of jobs to lower bands even though the responsibility stays the same. Some of the more desirable band 6 jobs were remanded to band 5s for the same duties and responsibility etc as they knew there'd be applicants; for those they'll be underpaid still but it's part of a bigger issue and any progress isn't to be sniffed at as other areas aren't perfect.

I wouldn’t say the pay is that similar I went from 21.5k a year (similar to aldi workers) to 28k a year (similar to a nurse) and I was super happy with the extra I got. That was going from days to full time nights. Also in a job that’s unstaffed and stressful, for example last month I had done 50 hours overtime and I’m doing the same this month, including Xmas and new year due to covering staff or lack of staff.
when I first qualified 4 years ago (degree) I got just under 18k a year and was looking at Aldi jobs but didn’t think it was worth it as in the long run it was worth me getting paid less to begin with.
I was just googling doctors pay £50-78k a year(?). I definitely think doctors should be on more than 10k a year difference to nurses

 

[instasham13]

I thought a doctors salary was much higher too? These 2 posts being an example. I don't know anything about levels of doctor though and consultant might be top dog hence why the salary is high.

Oh I agree definitely, I was a nurse but left fairly recently, I always felt a bit aggrieved by it. But that's why they do it because they feel they can, but the mass exodus hopefully demonstrates to the gov that we won't tolerate it any more, pay a fair wage or people will continue to leave.

Can I ask what you do now if you left nursing?

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

My OH is a band 8A in a clerical setting in Scotland. They are STEM degree educated, the job advert actually stated PHD preferable which they dont have but they obviously interviewed the best at the time. They are not medically trained.

We both think their salary is about right for what they do but in the private sector you would easily be paid a good 20k-30k more for essentially running a subsidiary of a department which is what they do aswell as a more specialised job role which I wont state as its perhaps identifable.

Some clerical roles are degree educated individuals with a decent amount of experience.

I know my partner would rather get nothing pay rise wise if those in lower bands in the hands on roles could be offered more.

 

[instasham13]

My OH is a band 8A in a clerical setting in Scotland. They are STEM degree educated, the job advert actually stated PHD preferable which they dont have but they obviously interviewed the best at the time. They are not medically trained.

We both think their salary is about right for what they do but in the private sector you would easily be paid a good 20k-30k more for essentially running a subsidiary of a department which is what they do aswell as a more specialised job role which I wont state as its perhaps identifable.

Some clerical roles are degree educated individuals with a decent amount of experience.

I know my partner would rather get nothing pay rise wise if those in lower bands in the hands on roles could be offered more.

Absoloutely. I had always assumed the high bands 8 and above etc surely had qualifications or a stressful job role. I see what the band 8 head nurse has to deal with in our hospital, constantly dealing with staffing issues, having to male sure wards are as safely staffed as they can be, having to deal with staff grievances etc and I wouldn't want her job for the salary tbh.

 

[Tui]

Just to interject speaking as a doctor, that quoted salary of £50-78k a year is not at all comparable to a band 5 nurse so potentially a newly qualified? It gets wheeled out all the time but that is the rate you would be seeing as a specialty doctor, so a specialised senior doctor who perhaps hasn’t completed UK training in a specialty but is highly specialised, operating towards or at consultant level but not able to call themselves a consultant. They will do their own clinics, have their own operating lists and are not in formal trianing
(https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors/pay-doctors). Most doctors are not specialty doctors, they are either consultants or on/between formal training pathways (“junior doctors”). To be earning £70+k you’re looking at a full time consultant. Obviously this is a decent wage but it is being eroded year on year by sub inflationary pay rises and many of the expenses of our work not being funded (for example, I have to do a mandatory exam as part of my training programme and it cost me £700).

An FY1 doctor ie in the first year of practice, their basic pay in England is £29,384. There are then uplifts for unsocial hours like nights and weekends. This increments gradually but only if they advance through training taking on more responsibilities, effectively doing a different job to an FY1. That’s one benefit of medicine is that compared to nursing there is a stepwise progression in pay, but the job does change substantially as a result. You don’t go over £50k basic until ST3 (“registrar”) which is after a minimum of 4 years practice but many have more years than this due to non linear progression by taking years out of training to spend time as a staff grade and get away from the crappy infantilising treadmill that is being a “junior doctor/trainee”. I’m on this £51k as my basic pay rate even though I have been a doctor for 9 years because I haven’t spent all of those 9 years in training (I was working but not in a formal training programme). This is on top of 6 years in university and 2 degrees. I earn a lot less than this due to being part time so doing less hours obviously.
In Scotland the basic FY1 rate is £26,462 before uplifts. Obviously I can’t compare a top band 5 and an FY1, they don’t equate in the jobs they do and the skills set they have and a top band 5 nurse will have many years of experience which an FY1 will not have.

More info here about doctors pay

The complete guide to NHS pay for doctors

How much do doctors earn in different roles across the UK? An NHS doctor’s salary is more complicated than it might at first appear and varies according to grade, years in role, and where in the UK the job is based. NHS pay is reviewed annually by the Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’...

www.bmj.com

And why we are probably going to be striking in March

Why junior doctors are striking - a guide for patients

While workload and waiting lists are at record highs, junior doctors' pay has been cut by more than a quarter since 2008/9. Junior doctors and their patients need change now.

www.bma.org.uk

Sorry to hijack the convo but I keep seeing in the media this £50-78k quote as it’s on the NHS website but it’s just not an accurate reflection of how doctors pay works!

I thought a doctors salary was much higher too? These 2 posts being an example. I don't know anything about levels of doctor though and consultant might be top dog hence why the salary is high.


Can I ask what you do now if you left nursing?

These are consultant posts, it takes 9+ years of training to be a consultant plus some will have done a PHD/MD on top of that.

 

[struggs123]

I thought a doctors salary was much higher too? These 2 posts being an example. I don't know anything about levels of doctor though and consultant might be top dog hence why the salary is high.


Can I ask what you do now if you left nursing?

Junior doctors wages are ridiculously low, even the highest paid NHS consultants pay is really low compared to their contemporaries elsewhere.

I only left fairly recently and I'm privileged enough to have been able to take some time out. I am starting a new job next month for a charity supporting families (I am dual trained so have done a lot of this sort of thing working in paeds) so will see how that goes. I will return to nursing one day i imagine, but not as it is at the moment and personally for me I don't fancy agency or working the bank.

My ex colleagues went on to do all sorts though- some in healthcare but not NHS and some completely different. At the end of the day you're a graduate with a bachelor of science degree, have experience of: working under pressure, working to set procedures professionally, constantly prioritising workload, maintaining accurate records, liaising with a wide variety of people, working with the public, dealing with challenging situations...plenty of stuff!

 

[Nounoupat]

Reading that article made me cry these are truly the things the nhs go thou each day I am a hca in a hospital when u have 6 people climbing out of bed 2 on end life you have multiple discharges that your have to go thou the things with check there body maps family members asking questions bed pans every 5 minutes being verbal attack but they got dementia and your short staffed it’s mentally exhausting and physically everyone who says the nhs shouldn’t strike I ask you to spend a day with us and experience us trying to do our best but we are so short we cant

 

[ChrisInghamsBeanie]

Reading that article made me cry these are truly the things the nhs go thou each day I am a hca in a hospital when u have 6 people climbing out of bed 2 on end life you have multiple discharges that your have to go thou the things with check there body maps family members asking questions bed pans every 5 minutes being verbal attack but they got dementia and your short staffed it’s mentally exhausting and physically everyone who says the nhs shouldn’t strike I ask you to spend a day with us and experience us trying to do our best but we are so short we cant

I felt this too. I worked as a nurse in the NHS a long time ago (and then later in Ireland).
I eventually retrained and left the profession as the burn out is real.
People have no idea, none. Its not tottering around a ward doling out spoons of calpol and taking pulses. It's physically, mentally and emotionally draining.

---

I know what you're saying. I think the salaries for these band 5/6 admin roles need to be that of the private sector to attract and keep people but from the point of view of of a dietician or nurse etc it's a bit disheartening. Nothing stopping nurses applying for these clerical roles for the same salary and many do but if everyone done that there would be no nurses left (exaggeration but you know what I mean) and that's why nurses and other allied healthcare professionals are fighting for recognition also.

I've said this before but the salaries are set by men who see it as women's work and not the hard graft it actually is.

 

[struggs123]

Reading that article made me cry these are truly the things the nhs go thou each day I am a hca in a hospital when u have 6 people climbing out of bed 2 on end life you have multiple discharges that your have to go thou the things with check there body maps family members asking questions bed pans every 5 minutes being verbal attack but they got dementia and your short staffed it’s mentally exhausting and physically everyone who says the nhs shouldn’t strike I ask you to spend a day with us and experience us trying to do our best but we are so short we cant

HCAs are criminally underpaid (as we all are, but I cannot comprehend people who do so much on such a terrible wage). I have left the NHS for now but healthcare assistants kept me going throughout my career, so so so underappreciated but so so so important both for colleagues and patients.

I keep in touch with a lot of people I have worked with over the years and its sad (but understandable) to see so many fantastic, compassionate, dedicated people leaving because they cannot do their jobs or they have burnt out. Its criminal how this has been allowed to happen and it makes me so scared about the future of accessible healthcare in this country.

 

[Autisteuse]

Don’t support the strikes at all. Nurses know what he pay is before even entering the workforce.
They are putting public health at risk.
Does the NHS in general need a rethink? Probably yes but this isn’t it and people are already turning on them.
If I had an operation cancelled due to the strikes I’d be fuming.
A lot of nurses had also been bullied into “supporting” the strikes.

Absolute balls and nothing anybody says will change my mind. They are better paid than most people

An entry level nurse gets under £20k. From that, s/he has to pay for parking, ever-increasing utility bills, rent, phone (mandatory for staff), food and often childcare. They do hours of unpaid overtime. The Tory Brexit screwed the profession and now we’re tens of thousands of health professionals short. The ones at the bottom have to pick up all the slack.
You think that’s good enough? You think that’s fair? You think all nurses are little Florence Nightingales, pressing their cool hand to a fevered brow and working for free because of their saintly vocation?
Get real. When there are nurses using foodbanks, there’s a real problem. Claps don’t put food on the table. Blame the Tories instead. They’re the ones who have crushed wages since 2010.

---

You're not the bad guys. You can strike.
I'm saying that nurses aren't badly paid. That's it.
Average salary in the UK is about 27k. Average nurses salary is about 33k.
Do I think you should be paid more. Absolutely.
Do I think I should be paid more. Absolutely. I work hard too.
I guess I'm fed up with the strapline of nurses work soooo hard. You do. Everyone does.
It's not personal.

So you’re on your feet for 12 hour shifts, then, responsible for the near-to-death at every second? If so, I’d love to know what industry you work in.

 

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

An entry level nurse gets under £20k. From that, s/he has to pay for parking, ever-increasing utility bills, rent, phone (mandatory for staff), food and often childcare. They do hours of unpaid overtime. The Tory Brexit screwed the profession and now we’re tens of thousands of health professionals short. The ones at the bottom have to pick up all the slack.
You think that’s good enough? You think that’s fair? You think all nurses are little Florence Nightingales, pressing their cool hand to a fevered brow and working for free because of their saintly vocation?
Get real. When there are nurses using foodbanks, there’s a real problem. Claps don’t put food on the table. Blame the Tories instead. They’re the ones who have crushed wages since 2010.

So you’re on your feet for 12 hour shifts, then, responsible for the near-to-death at every second? If so, I’d love to know what industry you work in.

I never clapped didn't think it was needed as the pandemic is what they were trained for. Also a lot of people are struggling not just nurses if you read further on I said they should demand more money just not in this economic climate.
Still don't agree with it.

 

[struggs123]

I never clapped didn't think it was needed as the pandemic is what they were trained for. Also a lot of people are struggling not just nurses if you read further on I said they should demand more money just not in this economic climate.
Still don't agree with it.

The government betrayed healthcare workers by not adequately preparing for the pandemic. There was an exercise not long before covid which highlighted the government's lack of preparedness for a pandemic and recommended actions...which they didn't undertake. Not only did HCPs have to rapidly learn how to treat this particular virus, but also had to work without adequate protection or resource.

I'm not minimising your view that you don't support strikes or a pay rise as that's of course up to you, but the 'what they trained for' line isn't the whole story is it.