Nurses striking

[judgejohndeed]

I think at this moment with inflation everyone should be paid more. I just don’t think everyone should be paid equal

I don’t think I’ve seen a single post here claiming that everyone should be paid equally?

 

[Tui]

Do people think that if you’re on low income that childcare costs just disappear into the abyss?
If it was about the wider cost of things the whole country would be in agreement, they’ve not once mentioned the cost of anything else just that they should be paid more and no one else is struggling and they’re all using food banks and applying for jobs at Lidl

This isn’t about other people. It’s not a race to the bottom. Sick of people comparing this situation to lowest income workers like that means everyone else should be grateful and never aspire to get the wage they deserve
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People will hate me for this probably. But you chose to have a child so why should that be taken into account? Loads of people get paid similar to nurses and have children.
We were actually talking about this in my job this week. The full time staff where I work get 29.5k a year and one person was saying 2/3rd of their monthly wage goes on childcare.
It’s not just this that makes me think parents are entitled sometimes, it’s the wanting Christmas of as they have a child or what’s happening in my job at the moment with the parents always being late and the manager saying it’s because they have kids. Kids shouldn’t be an excuse, everyone else has a life as well .

If you think like that then maybe we need to look to solve the nhs staffing crisis with nuns because people have a human right to a family life and also if we want to have nurses/midwives/hcas (and increasingly junior doctors) the majority being female then, yeah, we need to consider childcare to enable women to work in a society where women have careers and the traditional multi generational household no longer exists In white western culture

 

[cee-bee]

The country is an absolute state and everyone is finding it tough. But we're expected to support one group and encourage the government to give them a payrise. So great one group of people are sorted. What about the others? Those that can strike could strike for everyone. Demand changes to childcare. Demand changes to housing. Demand the tax loopholes are closed and people are taxed correctly. Then everyone benefits and we all move forward. We've heard lots about strikes have paved the way for maternity pay, annual leave etc but this nurses strike benefits nurses. That's it.
There has been lots on this thread that no one should settle for shit and it's not a race to the bottom all of which I agree with... But I can't get on board with supporting one group of people whilst the rest languish. The cost of living crisis effects us all (apart from one person on this thread who is super rich and earns more than the king).
People ... Well me... Are a bit tired of being preached too about how hard life is for nurses and how amazing them are. It does start to grate and I make no apologies for being annoyed by it all.

its not a race to the bottom though. We should all collectively be asking for more if we are in an industry that’s a shit sow and underpaid for the work done.

the nurses striking doesn’t take away from another group. The opposite. It paves the way and lends credence to other strikes.

it’s not “supporting one group while the rest languishes” that’s such a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. It’s supporting one group in achieving better conditions and doing so, supporting a collective right that we should all have, to better conditions.

showing support to the nurses demonstrates support to other unions and their fights.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

My point is nobody is forcing them to join or remain in the profession! I’m actually from a line of 3 generations of nurses, my great grandmother was a matron. If there aren’t enough nurses and paramedics to do the job what good is striking doing? Surely that just reduces the amount on the frontline even further, thus putting the vulnerable at risk? I find it hard to sympathise when, again, they are in the profession BY CHOICE.

<SLOW HAND CLAP FOR MRS STATE THE OBVIOUS>

Really? You mean young people aren’t being marched out of school to do nursing degrees at gun point?

Nurses aren’t picked up by army truck each morning and delivered to hospitals where they’re locked in all day? WELL I NEVER! That’s exactly what we all thought was happening.
Thanks so much for your informative and insightful comments. Put us all right!

 

[ChrisInghamsBeanie]

I can see this all ending with no decent pay offer for Wales, England and Wales. Many nurses etc will leave but realisticly most won't because the pay is still higher than nat minimum.

I don't get this. Why is the only option for nurses to leave and go into minimum wage jobs? Ive posted before Im ex-nurse & I make twice now what I did when i was a nurse and my current salary scales can progress infinitely higher.

 

[Former_Antelopee]

What's the thoughts on the new situation for Scottish NHS staff. From what I grasp of it this years pay offer has been imposed which puts a top band 5 in Scotland at £35,365. The Scottish Goverment have agreed to start negotiates for 23-24 pay offer early and have the offer communicated before end of Feb. I read there's a commitment also to a double digit pay offer over the next 2 years.

Doing my calculations if it's 5% this year and 5% in 2025 as a minimum double digit pay offer that puts the top band 5 salary for a nurse in Scotland at £38,900. That's basically hours so weekends, nights worked would top this up but what are people's thought on a salary in the region of 38k for a nurse?

My personal feeling is that it's about 2k too short.

I think 38k is very good just looking it up band 5 nurses 2-4years qualified atm can get up to 29k? So 38k imo is a big difference, I do think after that amount time of time then they should be on higher than 29k. But think 40k+ should be for more specialised/senior nurses. My uncle is a nurse, has done extra training and gets 40k a year and his job doesn’t sound bad.
Also aren’t NHS pensions great? someone who works in pensions told me this and said it’s a huge benefit that rarely anyone else gets anymore.
I don’t understand this whole working in Aldi would pay more as that’s not true.

 

[anotheronebitesthedust.1]

Soooo everyone gets more money in the recently announced pay deal. What about the shocking conditions, stress, burn out etc, what’s being done about them ?

Well hopefully with better pay , it will make it more appealing for the nhs to recruit people which in turn will improve staffing ratios which then stops the current staff having to pick up more

 

[Tui]

Serious question, why is it still considered "junior"

It basically means “not a consultant”. The traditional medical culture is one of toxic infantilism which is really hard to convey until you’ve experienced it. The powers that be have renamed us so many times. We used to be called house officer, senior house officer, registrar then consultant. Then the new training pathways came in in the early 2000s and this creeping culture of making us sound as junior as possible. Senior house officer was officially outlawed for fear it gave nursing staff and others a mistaken impression that the doctor was in any way senior. Replaced with core trainee, or junior grade and now they’re suggesting “central doctor”. I wish I could make it make fucking sense but I can’t. Meanwhile someone can do a degree in sport science, 2 years training to be a physician associate and start on £44k 9-5 no on calls. And people wonder why doctors are mad.
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Because what is and isn't a 'graduate entry job' is so arbitrary. I think plumbers and electricians who don't go to uni provide a more valuable and important service to society than someone who did a history of arts degree and now works on the BBC graduate scheme, so it's fine to me if the former earns more despite being 'less educated'. Some nurses don't have degrees as historically it wasn't a graduate profession, should those nurses earn less than the new ones with less experience but have a degree? I also think it would be very undesirable to live in a society where only those who are academically gifted can ever reach the highest wages. There are plenty of more useful and important skills to have. Some vital jobs are also just extremely unappealing - I can't think of anything worse than hauling heavy stuff around until 3am, or driving long distances etc - and to make those jobs worth it they need decent salaries, whereas people with stupid degrees are falling over themselves to do cushty 9-5 graduate schemes. I don't think it's communism to think that there's more to salaries than education, to me that's an extremely crude measure and I say that as someone who has several degrees.

It’s about skills more than education. The university education for nursing, medicine etc is specific skills based programmes Focused at a specific job. I don’t begrudge tradesmen getting a decent wage, I can’t do their job so I need to pay them for their skills and expertise. Nurses and doctors are no different. You can’t easily replace a nurse or a doctor, just like retraining electricians etc takes considerable time and not everyone is up to the job. It’s about skills.

 

[gigilouxx]

This right here is what is wrong with people and why my respect is dwindling.
Already the “we are better and therefore deserve more” is starting.
I couldn’t even get past the first few sentences before what you said showed how little you think of others.

Yeah I can’t lie I’m getting abit fed up of this attitude as well. It’s alright for other companies to pay peanuts for workers we couldn’t live without, like the police, the prison service etc but mention that you can’t understand how someone can’t live off over 30k a year then ur in the wrong

 

[Emsie]

As for the argument someone made that strikes are somehow engineered by union bosses, it’s ludicrous, they follow the wishes of their members after a ballot. Every working person in this country, whether or not they were a member of a union themselves, has benefitted from union actions. Unions won many workers rights which are now enshrined in law, paid maternity leave being one for example. The only bargaining chip workers have is withdrawal of labour.

I agree with this, which is why I'll always support the right to strike, whether I agree with the reason or not. Everyone benefits at some point.

 

[gigilouxx]

Uno what the doctors can fuckin crack on, I hope they get their pay rise, cos 5-10 years in a profession should no way, imo, be a “junior”

 

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

My wages have.

Ofcourse, you've already told us how much money you make. We've also asked if you could make a contribution to the nurses but you've been very quiet.
Have you learned critical thinking skills yet? I'm still waiting for you to make some clear concise points without hurling insults and calling people names for disagreeing with you

 

[cee-bee]

I don’t agree with the pointing the finger of “but people will die” unfortunately people die regardless and instead of playing the blame game the government need to do something before the whole country ends up in the toilet.

I’m fed up of the notion that NHS staff are always the worst off, they do deserve a pay rise, but we all as a collective also deserve affordable housing, childcare, a wider variation of training options to improve job prosperity. Like a previous poster said, this strike is to benefit nurses and nurses only.
Everyone has been hit by the state of the country, but it is wearing thin that the only people deemed worthy of a pay rise are the ones who aren’t really on low income as far as figures go. It’s a shit time for everyone and hopefully it sorts itself out soon

no one thinks the NHS staff are the worst off, but we can recognise they have it bad.


Not a single person on this thread has suggested only nurses are deserving of a pay rise.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

HCAs do an amazing job. They really do. But it’s common in any organisation for more junior members of staff to be unaware of what their senior staff are doing, and because of that, very common to assume they’re not doing much. It doesn’t mean it’s the case.

I don’t care if nurses are “well paid” they should get more. I saw a tiktok the other day showing a nurse in the us can be on $100k after 5 years. Things have moved on, nurses pay hasn’t moved with it

 

[gigilouxx]

Do people think that if you’re on low income that childcare costs just disappear into the abyss?
If it was about the wider cost of things the whole country would be in agreement, they’ve not once mentioned the cost of anything else just that they should be paid more and no one else is struggling and they’re all using food banks and applying for jobs at Lidl

 

[HoGi]

the official business term from multiple sources is " Any yearly pay rise at or below the current rate of inflation is, in real money terms, a pay cut "

In real money terms yes. But it isn't actually a pay cut.

A pay cut is going from earning 35k to 30k.

Not 35k having less buying power as everything costs more.

 

[intheindustry]

I disagree. In pretty much all jobs you either need to gain new and more difficult skills to gain a payrise, or move into management, why should nursing be different? If you're a retail assistant and you don't want to be a manager, you don't get paid more just because you've worked as a retail assistant for 15 years? If I want my fees to increase, I can't be doing the same kinds of cases I did 5 years ago. Doctors progressing up their payscale learn more and more difficult skills. The actual band 5 job you're doing doesn't change by job description when you've done it for 5, 10, 15 years so the idea that you should get more money just for doing it longer is wild tbh, I can't think of any other industries where this would happen. There are also other specialist nursing roles at band 6+, it isn't only management. If you've chosen an area where you stagnate at a band 5 without becoming management and you want more money, then the obvious/sensible thing to do would be to change specialism.

I think this kind of thing is why so many people don't support the strikes tbh. It comes across as 'I want more money but no harder work and no more responsiblity' - well, don't we all.

completely agree
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My husband was in the army and once he reached the top of his rank there were no more payrises and during his time there was a cost of living freeze for public sector. In his case it emphasised the need to work hard and get a promotion to reach the next pay scale.
In the public sector there are scales and if there’s a maximum you can earn then despite your best efforts your pay won’t increase, they’ll be people at the top of their banding that can’t go higher other than the 2-3% cost of living rise. Frustratingly you can’t expect a payrise every year, even if you’ve worked your socks off and bent over backwards, worked overtime for no extra money, kissed bosses arse etc.
Some jobs you end up in are dead man’s shoes so you’ve reached the end of the line both professionally and salary wise. Otherwise you’ve have people in roles earning more than they are feesibly worth.
During covid my husband was working crazy hours in the office at home, no thanks, no extra money. He was lucky he had a job.
If you asked 90% of the population if you think they earn what they are worth the country would grind to a halt, everyone thinks they should earn more?

 

[Emsie]

Could I ask what it is you do?
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What’s your occupation? Just out of interest.

It's totally irrelevant what my occupation is to this discussion.
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I think it’s a case of don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Anyone who expects a Tory government to give an above inflation pay rise is a fool. That’s not the way that they operate.
The detail hasn’t been revealed, but it would be quite controversial to make the lump sum tax free. The private sector pay tax on their bonuses as has already been said.
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As a public sector worker who was also on strike yesterday, members of my union were subjected to comments like this. We worked through the pandemic too but aren’t referred to as ‘angels’. We didn’t get free food or discounts. I’m sure that a charity or Foodbank would gladly accept the donations if NHS staff don’t want the money.
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That's a really spiteful comment.
I think everyone is just exhausted by the strikes now. Nurses, doctor's, trains, buses, passport office. I've said before I support the right to strike. The nurses strike in particular I haven't supported because I think the language used has been emotionally blackmailing and rude "I could earn more in Aldi" as if working in Aldi is beneath them and I've seen these attitudes played out on this thread.
Those of us that can't or won't strike are just exhausted by it all now.

 

[Yel]

when people state the money isn't there, I just wanted to say that it is, but it’s in the hands of tax avoiders.

The thing is that money will never be had. If the UK makes it more difficult for the world's elite to live here they'll just up sticks and move elsewhere.

Also with the multinationals like Facebook and apple it seems to be difficult with their global operations to actually tax them at a fair rate.

The whole problem is a lot bigger than taxing wealthy individuals and corporations.

 

[emm]

Patients are already at risk every day by nurse understaffing. Which will only get worse if nursing pay and conditions do not improve

Exactly they've been very open about the fact that striking is very much a last resort