Noel Clarke

[Cassandra333]

All of you who have commented, playing devils advocate and saying trial by twitter, innocent until proven guilty, victim blaming, blah blah blah.

YOU are part of the problem
YOU are why victims of sexual abuse do not come forward
YOU are why perpetrators of sexual violence continue to commit crimes and hold positions of power whilst doing so

Oh, no, Oh no, Oh, no,no,no,no,no.

People who stand up for 'innocent until proven guilty' are not siding with the abuser and they're not blaming the victims. We believe that everyone is innocent until proven guilty when it comes to THE LAW. It's a very necessary part of democracy.

I don't believe he's innocent and that's fine. I can look at the media and make my own mind up. What I CAN'T do, is promptly put him in prison. As far as I'm concerned he belongs in prison but I don't get to decide that and neither does anyone else on this forum. We have to follow the LAW.

And you should all be bloody grateful for that law. It's designed to protect innocent people. And even then it can go wrong. We've all seen appalling examples of miscarriages of justice and the dreadful effect that they've had on innocent people.

But saying that doesn't mean that I think this knobhead is innocent. I don't. I think he's guilty as sin. I'm basing that off the number of allegations against him and the stuff he's said since it all came out.

I believe the women in this case. That doesn't mean I'll automatically believe any woman, although I will still listen to any woman and hear what they have to say.

But to say that anyone who doesn't automatically agree with your opinion is the reason why victims of sexual abuse don't come forward etc is disgusting. How dare you. You know nothing about us, you have no idea of the work that we've done in those fields. And you clearly have no understanding of proper debate.

But worse than anything is how you trivialise sexual abuse. Apparently the only thing that has to happen is for people to agree with you and then it will all stop. And if people don't agree with you? Then those people are the reason sexual abuse is happening in society. You are completely trivialising a complex history of how power is used sexually in society. And you're doing it to virtue signal. How dare you?

 

[Vanelope]

I'm pretty sure she was in Kidulthood right?

Spoiler

Having re-read the Guardian article, I'm convinced she's "Mel".

Have you even read the Guardian article?
His career is absolutely over. There's no coming back from this whatsoever.

He messed with Jaime Winstone? He knows who her dad is right? And she felt she couldn’t say anything when Ray Winstone is connected all over UK tv and film. No wonder NC felt powerful.

 

[Sarah777]

Love Noel’s productions, its a pity this will all come to an end. Yeah his stuff might be a bit grimy but it’s reflecting that particular world, and the actresses could have dropped out if they didn’t like the script. That said, hope justice is served.

 

[Wackie Jeaver]

Love Noel’s productions, its a pity this will all come to an end. Yeah his stuff might be a bit grimy but it’s reflecting that particular world, and the actresses could have dropped out if they didn’t like the script. That said, hope justice is served.

Yeah of course they could. Because it's like really easy to make it in the acting world, especially if you don't have the family connections that many do, Why do you think the casting couch was/is still "a thing"?
I really hate the idea that young men and women are expected to put out to men of power in order to further their careers. These men - and it's 99.9% of the time that it's men - are power hungry disgusting pigs who take what they believe they are entitled to.

ETA, and if that fucks one or more the little people up, who really cares? Plenty more to exploit.

 

[atrendingtopic]

He messed with Jaime Winstone? He knows who her dad is right? And she felt she couldn’t say anything when Ray Winstone is connected all over UK tv and film. No wonder NC felt powerful.

This is what threw me! But then again she might not have felt comfortable to tell her dad. Maybe she didn't want to be seen as using daddy's name to influencer her career - even though taking down a predator is undoubtedly a worthy cause.
Alternatively, she could have blocked it out of her mind due to the trauma and only realised the severity of what happened as she got a bit older.

Love Noel’s productions, its a pity this will all come to an end. Yeah his stuff might be a bit grimy but it’s reflecting that particular world, and the actresses could have dropped out if they didn’t like the script. That said, hope justice is served.

Ok but what about those who weren't actresses but were sexually harassed by him? Sorry but this comment is stupid.

 

[Reverend]

Love Noel’s productions, its a pity this will all come to an end. Yeah his stuff might be a bit grimy but it’s reflecting that particular world, and the actresses could have dropped out if they didn’t like the script. That said, hope justice is served.

I understand that sometimes he would change the script, or if he promised an actress that they wouldn't have to perform topless, he started putting them under pressure once filming began to strip off. It's difficult for a young actress particularly to object or walk off the set, as they could end up with a 'reputation' for being difficult. Harvey Weinstein did that to Mira Sirvino after she rejected him. Peter Jackson was going to hire her for LoTR but Weinstein told him that she was unreliable.

 

[Sarah777]

Yeah of course they could. Because it's like really easy to make it in the acting world, especially if you don't have the family connections that many do, Why do you think the casting couch was/is still "a thing"?
I really hate the idea that young men and women are expected to put out to men of power in order to further their careers. These men - and it's 99.9% of the time that it's men - are power hungry disgusting pigs who take what they believe they are entitled to.

I 100% agree with everything you say. My point was directed at those saying “I knew he was a creep from watching Kidulthood” as to me, that’s not an indication of him being guilty. Those productions unfortunately are art imitating life; inner city London has pockets of complete depravation, desperation and crime. Girls are pieces of meat.

As for the allegations, I genuinely understand why the women remained silent for reasons you outlined.

I understand that sometimes he would change the script, or if he promised an actress that they wouldn't have to perform topless, he started putting them under pressure once filming began to strip off. It's difficult for a young actress particularly to object or walk off the set, as they could end up with a 'reputation' for being difficult. Harvey Weinstein did that to Mira Sirvino after she rejected him. Peter Jackson was going to hire her for LoTR but Weinstein told him that she was unreliable.

Wow I didn’t know that. Thanks! Why do you think no one on set stopped him? He’s THAT influential? Don’t for a second believe Ashley Walters wasn’t witness to this... look how quick he was to call it out.

 

[FrostyChops]

Well yeah in a court of law the UK have am adversarial system so those brought to trial are presumed innocent until the prosecution proves otherwise.

This isn't a court of law. Those that want to think he is innocent until proven otherwise, fair enough. I don't need to wait for that, l've made my decision based on the available evidence that he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt and that is all my mind needs.

 

[Rockin' Robin]

Love Noel’s productions, its a pity this will all come to an end. Yeah his stuff might be a bit grimy but it’s reflecting that particular world, and the actresses could have dropped out if they didn’t like the script. That said, hope justice is served.

His inspiration came from a dark place - own his mind.

 

[Sarah777]

His inspiration came from a dark place - his mind.

Have to disagree with you. My entire school year, inner city London comprehensive, went to see Kidulthood the weekend it came out, and the characters were doppelgängers of many of our classmates and their parents. His inspiration for those films came from his experiences, although his modern stuff is unrealistic fantasy eg BulletProof and ViewPoint.

 

[Reverend]

Wow I didn’t know that. Thanks! Why do you think no one on set stopped him? He’s THAT influential? Don’t for a second believe Ashley Walters wasn’t witness to this... look how quick he was to call it out.

As the Producer/Director/Creator, he could get away with it. These people have a lot of power.

Did Ashley Walters know? Probably, but if Clarke told him that she had agreed, and she remained silent, he probably didn;t think anymore about it.

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

The actress who had her naked audition filmed said she went to the police about it but they told her they could do nothing unless he threatened her with it. She said she was not in a position to persue at that time, but has gained strength in them all coming together (paraphrasing a tweet).

Ah ... yep. exactly what I was going on about upthread. Police basically interpreting the law in a way that suits them, picking and choosing which crimes to bother with, and brushing off people who DO go to the police and try to use the system correctly. This is why sometimes a public outcry or an investigative journalistic response is the only option. It should not have to be this way. It is this way because particularly in the case of sexual offences, victims are basically told to go swing in the wind time and time again. But suddenly, when there's a public outcry and they're in the glare of the media, same police can't wait to help! Funny, that.

I've experienced calling in a situation myself (dangerous driver, likely drunk from the way they were driving, who lost control of their car at speed, mounted the pavement and just missed hitting me, had the plate and everything) and being told basically to duck off by the police when I called the incident in 15 minutes later (called 101 when I got home). A snotty witch who basically sighed at me and said 'What exactly do you want us to do' and then told me they wouldn't bother as it was 'fifteen minutes since the incident happened'. And that was that. There is a police force near me who basically didn't even record a huge number (as in thousands) of reported crimes the other year let alone investigate them to keep their stats down.

I think people who have never dealt with the police or legal system can be VERY naive in thinking that all a victim of a crime has to do is report it and then the angels of justice will automatically swoop down and make things right. It really often is not the case at all.

 

[Flossy2020]

Ah ... yep. exactly what I was going on about upthread. Police basically interpreting the law in a way that suits them, picking and choosing which crimes to bother with, and brushing off people who DO go to the police and try to use the system correctly. This is why sometimes a public outcry or an investigative journalistic response is the only option. It should not have to be this way. It is this way because particularly in the case of sexual offences, victims are basically told to go swing in the wind time and time again. But suddenly, when there's a public outcry and they're in the glare of the media, same police can't wait to help! Funny, that.

I've experienced calling in a situation myself (dangerous driver, likely drunk from the way they were driving, who lost control of their car at speed, mounted the pavement and just missed hitting me, had the plate and everything) and being told basically to duck off by the police when I called the incident in 15 minutes later (called 101 when I got home). A snotty witch who basically sighed at me and said 'What exactly do you want us to do' and then told me they wouldn't bother as it was 'fifteen minutes since the incident happened'. And that was that. There is a police force near me who basically didn't even record a huge number (as in thousands) of reported crimes the other year let alone investigate them to keep their stats down.

I think people who have never dealt with the police or legal system can be VERY naive in thinking that all a victim of a crime has to do is report it and then the angels of justice will automatically swoop down and make things right. It really often is not the case at all.

In recent years I’ve begun to understand this a lot more where I live too. It is true. We’re now being told to report a crime but they won’t actually do anything about it until ‘so many’ people have reported the same crime, but by that time it’s usually too late or they still haven’t bothered.
But will come and close a whole road off for nearly an hour, more than two police cars, because someone accidentally drove into a parked car (impatient giving way situation, not drunk), not much to clear up, didn’t need to close the whole road!

 

[sdmilne]

On the semi related, Barrowman issue......bloody hell....

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

In recent years I’ve begun to understand this a lot more where I live too. It is true. We’re now being told to report a crime but they won’t actually do anything about it until ‘so many’ people have reported the same crime, but by that time it’s usually too late or they still haven’t bothered.
But will come and close a whole road off for nearly an hour, more than two police cars, because someone accidentally drove into a parked car (impatient giving way situation, not drunk), not much to clear up, didn’t need to close the whole road!

I brought up Ian Watkins earlier, but I just remembered another infamous UK case where multiple female rape victims were basically laughed at by police and dismissed and as such, a prolific rapist was allowed to continue predating on women: the taxi driver John Worboys case.

The Met Police literally mocked some of the women who did the 'right thing' legally and went to a police station to report what happened to them in Worboys cab. Worboys got away with serious sexual offences for YEARS because of the police's refusal to pursue the complaints when thy should have.

It's exhausting trying to explain this to people who seem to be able to take in the endless high profile cases where victims reporting serious sexual offences were ignored AND somehow simultaneously seem to believe every other complaint of a lesser nature is going to automatically be pursued and justice restored if the victim 'does the right thing'.

 

[Notworthy]

In recent years I’ve begun to understand this a lot more where I live too. It is true. We’re now being told to report a crime but they won’t actually do anything about it until ‘so many’ people have reported the same crime, but by that time it’s usually too late or they still haven’t bothered.
But will come and close a whole road off for nearly an hour, more than two police cars, because someone accidentally drove into a parked car (impatient giving way situation, not drunk), not much to clear up, didn’t need to close the whole road!

I have some sympathy for the Police, often they build a strong case, it goes to court and some judge gives the offender a slap on the wrist. I do think it is important where possible to report things. Your report may not result in much if anything but if there are other similar reports, it does help. My personal story is that I was coerced by my parents friend whose daughters I also happened to be very good friends with, to be honest at the time I didn't realise what was happening being young although it turned out not as young as my sister was when he started on her and apparently nearly all the daughters of his friends. Because none of us said anything not only did he get away with it but he was able continue with his behaviour for decades. A few years ago I found out he had moved in with his eldest daughter and she lived with a guy who had a teenage daughter. I had to tell her what her Dad was like, I just couldn't allow him to gain yet another victim even if it cost me a friendship.

On the semi related, Barrowman issue......bloody hell....

And right there is where the problem is, not only is his behaviour seen as acceptable but it's actually turned into a comedy routine.

I brought up Ian Watkins earlier, but I just remembered another infamous UK case where multiple female rape victims were basically laughed at by police and dismissed and as such, a prolific rapist was allowed to continue predating on women: the taxi driver John Worboys case.

The Met Police literally mocked some of the women who did the 'right thing' legally and went to a police station to report what happened to them in Worboys cab. Worboys got away with serious sexual offences for YEARS because of the police's refusal to pursue the complaints when thy should have.

It's exhausting trying to explain this to people who seem to be able to take in the endless high profile cases where victims reporting serious sexual offences were ignored AND somehow simultaneously seem to believe every other complaint of a lesser nature is going to automatically be pursued and justice restored if the victim 'does the right thing'.

So women shouldn't report things then? is that your argument because that's not actually going to change anything. I believe in our system of innocent until proven guilty, I can't pick and choose which crimes shouldn't have that burden on them simply because they're crimes against women, that's not how the process works for me. That doesn't mean I assume someone making an allegation is lying and I don't believe the Police need to automatically 100% believe an allegation as that shouldn't be necessary to do their job properly but what they do need to do is take allegations seriously and investigate appropriately, which clearly hasn't been done in numerous cases, sitting back and not reporting crimes isn't the way to enact change.

 

[Unlikely]

He messed with Jaime Winstone? He knows who her dad is right? And she felt she couldn’t say anything when Ray Winstone is connected all over UK tv and film. No wonder NC felt powerful.

Ray Winstone was at both Kray brothers' funerals. "Bet in play naahhww."

 

[FrostyChops]

On the semi related, Barrowman issue......bloody hell....

I don't understand how this is remotely funny.

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

So women shouldn't report things then? is that your argument because that's not actually going to change anything.

No, clearly it is not my argument that 'women shouldn't report things'. It is neither implied or overtly stated in anything I have said. In this thread I have advised a woman to report a workplace assault, in fact.

What I am pointing out is that 'reporting things' is not the 100% foolproof or often remotely effective road to justice that some people naively believe it to be, because a report does not guarantee any investigation or even willingness to pursue the complaint at all. I have supported this by pointing out the famous cases where women doing the right thing legally have been mocked or ignored for years even when they possessed hard evidence of an accused's criminal interests.

The solution if there IS one is for police to be held to a higher standard of investigation. For justice reform in various areas, Which I know is not going to be achieved easily, if at all.

The point is that in the absence of a perfectly functioning justice system, there will always be a place for the kind of serious, high quality investigative journalism and serious collation of complaints that led to the prosecution of say, the formerly untouchable Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby and may or may not lead to the prosecution of Noel Clarke if indeed he can be proved in a court to have committed prosecutable offences.

 

[sdmilne]

I don't understand how this is remotely funny.

It really isn't. It sounds like abuse.