Narcissistic and toxic parents #2

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Wow so much of this chimes @AlwaysSummer. I’m very lucky that my dad is now sorted and our relationship is much better but after my mum he married another narcissist and it kind of turned him into one as well? She tried to turn him against me and it worked. I think he’s quite ashamed of that now.
My dad used to dismiss any problems I had but he’s much more sympathetic now.
My mum on the other hand will just make it clear how awful she finds it and will adopt any struggle as her own. I’ve also come to expect a performance of the dying swan when I’m about to go home or if I’m doing something I’ve been looking forward to. Im going on holiday soon and I think im just going to turn my phone off.
 
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When your narcissistic parent lists reasons why you shouldn’t apply for another job... in twenty texts....
I cancelled the job application.

All I needed was some support and encouragement. I’m just so unhappy and so unfulfilled in life.

There’s this guy who I’ve met and he (to me) is perfect. We are not dating. He’s too good for me. He’s lived life. He’s travelled and had a career and just lives life to the full. I feel tarnished. I could never give him the life he deserves. I’d drag him down.
Forever alone.

I feel so isolated and scared for my future. It’s not often you meet someone and connect,
I just feel like my life isn’t mine.

External influences like Narc parents sort of ‘plant seeds of doubt’ and that’s it. Does anybody understand this? I feel I have so much to work through.

Sorry x I’m sat at work in my car, after a not so good shift unsure whether to walk back in or drive and not stop...
 
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When your narcissistic parent lists reasons why you shouldn’t apply for another job... in twenty texts....
I cancelled the job application.

All I needed was some support and encouragement. I’m just so unhappy and so unfulfilled in life.

There’s this guy who I’ve met and he (to me) is perfect. We are not dating. He’s too good for me. He’s lived life. He’s travelled and had a career and just lives life to the full. I feel tarnished. I could never give him the life he deserves. I’d drag him down.
Forever alone.

I feel so isolated and scared for my future. It’s not often you meet someone and connect,
I just feel like my life isn’t mine.

External influences like Narc parents sort of ‘plant seeds of doubt’ and that’s it. Does anybody understand this? I feel I have so much to work through.

Sorry x I’m sat at work in my car, after a not so good shift unsure whether to walk back in or drive and not stop...
Yes. 🙁 I doubt myself all the time and also - the feeling of not being good enough. In fact, on the very rare occasion when I don’t doubt myself about something, it feels very odd. With my mum, it’s the same - listing reasons why I shouldn’t do something and naming all the negatives and things that could potentially go wrong. She also asks questions or makes comments that very subtly plant doubts. For example, if she found out I was going on a work trip: “But where will you park? There’ll be nowhere to park! And what if you get lost and you run out of petrol?? And you’ll be on your own, you might get attacked!” And when I first started lecturing, she kept saying at different times: “And I presume you have to talk out loud?” “You’ll have to talk out loud all the time” “Except you have to talk out loud don’t you?” “Did you talk out loud?” “If you don’t talk out loud, they won’t hear you at the back”. So now I’m always very conscious of the fact that I don’t speak loud enough. 🙄

It’s often the subtle things and the things said supposedly out of ‘concern’ that are the worst.
 
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There’s this guy who I’ve met and he (to me) is perfect. We are not dating. He’s too good for me. He’s lived life. He’s travelled and had a career and just lives life to the full. I feel tarnished. I could never give him the life he deserves. I’d drag him down.
Forever alone.
Please please please give it a go with this guy if you feel he’s perfect for you. DON’T LET YOUR MOTHER WIN. narcs feed off putting you down. Take it slowly and try to relax around him. Make sure that the voice inside your head is yours and not hers. Nobody is better than anyone else. You won’t drag him down. You are equals.

I know it’s difficult I’ve been there and I have a constant battle going on inside my head. But I’m dealing with my mother by grey rocking and minimal contact. Remember your phone has a red button. Use it. Cancel the call. Block the texts. Leave the messages unread

You can and will get your confidence back. We’re all here leading the cheerleading.

Go get him girl and have some fun. Bollocks to your mother 🥰
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When your narcissistic parent lists reasons why you shouldn’t apply for another job... in twenty texts....
I cancelled the job application.
Next time you find a job you want to apply for. Post the outline on here and we’ll give you 20 reasons to apply for it x
 
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Can fully relate to narc parents wearing you down out of “concern”.

My mum offered to pay for my wedding dress. Uncharacteristically generous of her, but great. I found a dress I liked - it was an old sample dress from a discontinued dress that I LOVED and found on Pinterest. So, it was pretty cheap. About £200 and will need about £400 in alterations.

Funnily enough, when my mum heard I’d gone out and bought a dress, she wasn’t pleased. No offer to pay for it anymore. I realised that all along, she’d offered to pay so she could be involved in choosing the dress. Because she wanted to be centre of attention at a bridal shop as mother of the bride. Because SHE wanted something out of it, not because she wanted me to be happy.

I felt bad she’d missed out on the whole “say yes to the dress” experience. It wasn’t my intention to rob her of anything. So shrugged the retraction of the offer off.

I tried to make her feel better by letting her see photos of me in the dress.

She made a long list of suggestions on how it should be altered. No compliments whatsoever. I shrugged it off.

A few months later, she’s obviously feeling annoyed I have changed my mind and booked fitting for other dresses. She texts me “out of concern”. How I should try on other dresses so I can get an “honest” opinion on what “flatters” me. She’s basically saying I look bad in my dress in a roundabout way.

Initially, I felt pretty crushed. But I guess I’ve learned not to take it to heart anymore. The whole dress situation wasn’t about me or my dress. Really it’s about my mother wanting something and her reaction to not getting it. I could have worn the most perfect, beautiful dress in the world and it wouldn’t have been good enough for my mother, because she wanted to make the choice and get something out of it for herself - it was never about me or my dress. I’ve learned to Grey rock in response to her “I like my dress and I’m happy with my choice”.

I think I posted here - when my mum saw that the constant criticism was getting her nowhere, she switched tact to being very apologetic. It almost hurt me more, because I knew it was completely disingenuous. I know how to grey rock her criticisms and digs now, but the kind, empathetic approach, took me off guard.

my advice to @Good Egg and anyone else struggling with narc parents is… don’t ever forget that their insults, digs and comments are always about them, and never about you.

the project their hatred of themselves (because all narcissist hate themselves deep down) onto others, because it’s easier than feeling it for themselves.

it makes me sad to hear about people not going for opportunities or not believing in themselves because they start believing what their narc parents say. And when it gets to this point, you have to treat yourself like you love yourself, even if you don’t. You have to distance yourself from these people at all costs. Physically and emotionally. Because it was literally save your life. Do not communicate or see people who make you feel this way. Do not spend your life letting this posting infiltrate everything good in it. Value yourself more than these people ever can, I beg you.

for me, a turning point was when I visited home for Christmas after about a 5 hour journey. My narc sister (with the support of my mother) treated me horribly. Started a fight, kicked me out of the room I was staying in, threw my clothes everywhere… I honestly felt so small and so destroyed. Like I wasn’t worth living, because if my own family couldn’t be kind to me then who would? I felt in that moment like my life wasn’t worth anything. It’s a horrible place to be in mentally but it’s where narcs drive you to.

it made something click in my head. Maybe a survival instinct, that told me that it was up to me and me alone to chose better for myself.

so that Christmas I packed my bags up, called a friend and booked a hotel room for the night. I then went to stay for the remainder of the holidays with my best friend.

I haven’t been back home for Christmas since. I’ve barely spoken to either my mother or my sister since. And my life has improved exponentially because of it. I don’t cry in the middle of the night, upset over their treatment of me anymore. I feel more confident. It’s like stepping into the light in all honesty, like shifting a huge weight.
 
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So I’m quite confused about this:

At work, one of the students asked me about the procedure for applying for an extension on their project deadline, as they’ve had a lot of health issues recently. They said that they already had the forms filled out with a doctor’s note included, but that the tutor of that subject is away for the rest of the term so they weren’t sure who to give it to. They were stressed out and almost in tears with worry. Seeing as they’re also my student and the fact that the tutor in question is away, I said that they could give the (sealed) envelope containing the forms to me, and I’d give it to the head of the department later, as I’d be having a meeting with him in any case. I’m also one of their tutors so this seemed like a normal procedure. Later that day, on the phone, I was talking to the head of the department and I mentioned this to him. He said no problem, that he’d take the letter at the meeting, and then process the extension on behalf of the other tutor who’s away until January.

My mum happened to be in my kitchen at the time (different room to me while I was on the phone) but was obviously listening intensely at the door because she picked up the general outline of the situation, though thankfully no names or personal details were mentioned. When I went into the kitchen, she said in a really low, almost whispering voice:

“Oh I hope you don’t get into trouble for handing in that letter. The head of the department mightn’t like that - you going behind his back giving him that letter - you’re actually applying for an extension on that student’s behalf - not good. I hope your name isn’t on the doctor’s note or letter, it might not look good for you and your job could be in danger.”

I was shocked, and said “What?!” but she stayed silent and refused to engage.

After a long spell of silence from her, she said, again in an odd, low tone: “And does that student look normal or would you know they have mental issues?”

(Nobody mentioned mental issues btw and I refused to answer this).

What the actual eff? Going behind a person’s back to give that same person a letter?? And “I hope your name isn’t on the doctor’s note”?? I was actually lost for words it was that ridiculous, but at the same time, I’m actually doubting myself and my actions right now and I irrationally feel like I might have done something wrong! I actually feel 10 years old and a misplaced sense of shame now over this which is ridiculous I know. Is this gaslighting? From that time until she left, she acted strangely and was being passive aggressive with her speech, almost as though she was weirdly annoyed and envious of something? In the past, she has acted like this when I would speak about friends, other people, etc., as though she’s jealous of them stealing her limelight. Is this maybe what her problem is?

Then, just before she left, she weirdly started offering to drive me to the department (wtf) so that I can hand over the letter, and she also offered to go and get a stamp in case I wanted to post it instead. It’s as though she was envious initially because she wasn’t involved and then she tried to involve herself? Absolute nutter but that old feeling of irrational doubt is sickening. 😣
 
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It is actually amazing how things are turned on us and everything is our fault and then make us doubt our own minds,while in my case being all sweetness and light when others are around.
 
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So I’m quite confused about this:

At work, one of the students asked me about the procedure for applying for an extension on their project deadline, as they’ve had a lot of health issues recently. They said that they already had the forms filled out with a doctor’s note included, but that the tutor of that subject is away for the rest of the term so they weren’t sure who to give it to. They were stressed out and almost in tears with worry. Seeing as they’re also my student and the fact that the tutor in question is away, I said that they could give the (sealed) envelope containing the forms to me, and I’d give it to the head of the department later, as I’d be having a meeting with him in any case. I’m also one of their tutors so this seemed like a normal procedure. Later that day, on the phone, I was talking to the head of the department and I mentioned this to him. He said no problem, that he’d take the letter at the meeting, and then process the extension on behalf of the other tutor who’s away until January.

My mum happened to be in my kitchen at the time (different room to me while I was on the phone) but was obviously listening intensely at the door because she picked up the general outline of the situation, though thankfully no names or personal details were mentioned. When I went into the kitchen, she said in a really low, almost whispering voice:

“Oh I hope you don’t get into trouble for handing in that letter. The head of the department mightn’t like that - you going behind his back giving him that letter - you’re actually applying for an extension on that student’s behalf - not good. I hope your name isn’t on the doctor’s note or letter, it might not look good for you and your job could be in danger.”

I was shocked, and said “What?!” but she stayed silent and refused to engage.

After a long spell of silence from her, she said, again in an odd, low tone: “And does that student look normal or would you know they have mental issues?”

(Nobody mentioned mental issues btw and I refused to answer this).

What the actual eff? Going behind a person’s back to give that same person a letter?? And “I hope your name isn’t on the doctor’s note”?? I was actually lost for words it was that ridiculous, but at the same time, I’m actually doubting myself and my actions right now and I irrationally feel like I might have done something wrong! I actually feel 10 years old and a misplaced sense of shame now over this which is ridiculous I know. Is this gaslighting? From that time until she left, she acted strangely and was being passive aggressive with her speech, almost as though she was weirdly annoyed and envious of something? In the past, she has acted like this when I would speak about friends, other people, etc., as though she’s jealous of them stealing her limelight. Is this maybe what her problem is?

Then, just before she left, she weirdly started offering to drive me to the department (wtf) so that I can hand over the letter, and she also offered to go and get a stamp in case I wanted to post it instead. It’s as though she was envious initially because she wasn’t involved and then she tried to involve herself? Absolute nutter but that old feeling of irrational doubt is sickening. 😣
you obviously know your mother better than us, but sounds like a narc getting a kick out of making you panic, your reaction to her being inflammatory and enjoying the control of getting a reaction out of you.

im not sure if id call it gaslighting - but I think making you doubt yourself (especially with work. Usually work equates to indepdent, self esteem and sense of worth. Things narcs can’t stand for other people) is highly manipulative behaviour designed to make you feel small and uncertain of yourself. could also be a way for your mum to feel good about herself, by identifying a “risky” situation and inserting herself and taking control to “handle” it.

On a side note… sociopaths and psychopaths get a kick out of seeing others’ emotional reactions because it gives them a sense of control and because they themselves can’t feel those emotions in a profound way, so can find it amusing. Maybe it sounds far fetched but it doesn’t hurt to consider. There are a lot of overlaps with personality disorders.
 
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you obviously know your mother better than us, but sounds like a narc getting a kick out of making you panic, your reaction to her being inflammatory and enjoying the control of getting a reaction out of you.

im not sure if id call it gaslighting - but I think making you doubt yourself (especially with work. Usually work equates to indepdent, self esteem and sense of worth. Things narcs can’t stand for other people) is highly manipulative behaviour designed to make you feel small and uncertain of yourself. could also be a way for your mum to feel good about herself, by identifying a “risky” situation and inserting herself and taking control to “handle” it.

On a side note… sociopaths and psychopaths get a kick out of seeing others’ emotional reactions because it gives them a sense of control and because they themselves can’t feel those emotions in a profound way, so can find it amusing. Maybe it sounds far fetched but it doesn’t hurt to consider. There are a lot of overlaps with personality disorders.

That sounds accurate sadly as she loves to cause drama and to provoke reactions in people (she admitted once that she enjoys making other people get mad). I’ve often wondered about the possibility of her being a psychopath or sociopath tbh because she does seem to have certain traits, and she will often smirk when someone is upset or angry. She hides it a little better now but these traits were hugely obvious when we were children - the things she would openly say and do were cruel and abnormal. Sometimes I can ignore her or laugh it off but today she really caught me off guard - it was just so ridiculous. It seems they have a talent for knowing exactly what to say and when to say it so that we are reduced to sad and confused children again.

Your mum sounds so difficult as well - and your analysis of her behaviour seems very accurate too. They seem to be always scheming, thinking of ways to get themselves into the spotlight and then sulking when it doesn’t work out for them.
 
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Please please please give it a go with this guy if you feel he’s perfect for you. DON’T LET YOUR MOTHER WIN. narcs feed off putting you down. Take it slowly and try to relax around him. Make sure that the voice inside your head is yours and not hers. Nobody is better than anyone else. You won’t drag him down. You are equals.

I know it’s difficult I’ve been there and I have a constant battle going on inside my head. But I’m dealing with my mother by grey rocking and minimal contact. Remember your phone has a red button. Use it. Cancel the call. Block the texts. Leave the messages unread

You can and will get your confidence back. We’re all here leading the cheerleading.

Go get him girl and have some fun. Bollocks to your mother 🥰
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Next time you find a job you want to apply for. Post the outline on here and we’ll give you 20 reasons to apply for it x
Thank you so much. This was such a lovely post.
 
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Could you share if you have accessed therapy and found it useful for coming to terms with your narc upbringing?
 
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Could you share if you have accessed therapy and found it useful for coming to terms with your narc upbringing?
i have accessed CBT which, to be honest, I did find useful. Especially in terms of reframing my brain not to essentially repeat the lies my narc parents instilled me with. It helped me question their version of me and think about alternative interpretations to situations.

it also helped me become more conscious of my reactions. For example, I noticed that whenever my partner would come home from work, my body would tense and i would start to get a little panicky and anxious and go into “fawn” mode. CBT helped me recognise that was happening but it was up to me to think about it and out 2 and 2 together; my narc father coming home from work was a massive stressor for me growing up because I would never know what mood he’d be in. His job was a major source of frustration for him, so he’d usually come home and take it out on my and my siblings through yelling or starting fights over minor things. Without being aware of it, as a kid I’d learned to try and assess his mood as soon as he came in the door and try and appease him as best as I could (or avoid him totally).

unfortunately, for victims of any abuse; it manifests itself a lot in romantic relationships and often at awkward times. I’d never lived with a man until my partner and it’s only been the last year he has gone to the office while I’ve worked from home - so the dynamic that mirrors my situation from childhood is relatively new. I noticed that I was tense and anxious when he came home, monitoring his mood, offering to make him tea and get him water as part of a fawn trauma response.

CBT helped me notice my reaction so that I could do so more digging and realise this was the case, but I’m not sure it’s necessarily given me the tools to overcome them. The rationale with CBT is that when you become aware of your emotional state and in tune with it, you can challenge/change your own behaviour. But it’s hard to snap out of a fawn trauma response when it’s what kept you “safe” in childhood and your brain mentally goes straight into that response.

I’ve heard of some people feeling like CBT can help reinforce gaslighting because it asks you to question and challenge assumptions, which can feel like gaslighting yourself. However I’m not sure this is the case for me. Something to be conscious of though. The point of CBT isn’t to deny reality or assume you’re wrong, it’s to ask yourself to observe your emotional state and challenge assumptions and beliefs, not automatically disbelieve them.

I think therapists or psychologists who specialise in complex PTSD are probably the best for victims of narcissistic abuse - but I do think CBT is good prep work and much more easily accessible.
 
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Thank you, @cee-bee, this is super helpful and I really appreciate your personal experience and feedback. It’s really interesting what you say about noticing manifestations of learned responses from your childhood in your current relationships.

I’ve read up quite a bit and more and more inclined to seek professional support to help me deal with maladaptive responses learned through childhood. On an intellectual level I can see where my triggers are but often I’d go back to responding in an automatic way which then I get frustrated about when I have time to analyse it. I have been trying to take time and give myself space before responding which def works.

I recently read Narcissistic Mothers by Caroline Foster which I found really insightful and it talked a lot about complex PTSD. It’s only a short book, I def recommend it. She describes one of the roles given to children of narc mums as the invisible child which I’ve not come across previously and I felt I’ve had a lightbulb moment as this totally fits my experience.
 
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I had lots of talking therapy which helped me work through a lot of issues with my parents. I actually started going after the death of my MIL because I missed so much having a mother in my life. My therapist was great and I was with her for over 18 months. I completely recommend therapy to air and organise all your thoughts and feelings.
 
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I had lots of talking therapy which helped me work through a lot of issues with my parents. I actually started going after the death of my MIL because I missed so much having a mother in my life. My therapist was great and I was with her for over 18 months. I completely recommend therapy to air and organise all your thoughts and feelings.
Thank you, @Nonah, that’s so encouraging and glad you have found therapy helpful.
 
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One of the things that made me doubt my own judgement with my mum and where I actually gaslit myself, was when she would get extremely angry if she thought that someone else had insulted or disrespected me. Because of this, I would think “If she gets this annoyed over someone else disrespecting me, then there’s no way she’s doing it to me - I must be imagining it all.” What I didn’t realise until much later was that, in her mind, her children were her possessions and hers alone to abuse. It wasn’t that she was offended for me, it was more like “How dare they use my possession - only I am allowed to play those games with my possession!” - like a child throwing a tantrum when they’ve seen someone else play with their toys. Realising this was a fairly sad lightbulb moment, but an important one in realising that I’m not actually imagining her behaviour.
 
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One of the things that made me doubt my own judgement with my mum and where I actually gaslit myself, was when she would get extremely angry if she thought that someone else had insulted or disrespected me. Because of this, I would think “If she gets this annoyed over someone else disrespecting me, then there’s no way she’s doing it to me - I must be imagining it all.” What I didn’t realise until much later was that, in her mind, her children were her possessions and hers alone to abuse. It wasn’t that she was offended for me, it was more like “How dare they use my possession - only I am allowed to play those games with my possession!” - like a child throwing a tantrum when they’ve seen someone else play with their toys. Realising this was a fairly sad lightbulb moment, but an important one in realising that I’m not actually imagining her behaviour.
All of this ❤
 
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When your narcissistic parent lists reasons why you shouldn’t apply for another job... in twenty texts....
I cancelled the job application.

All I needed was some support and encouragement. I’m just so unhappy and so unfulfilled in life.

There’s this guy who I’ve met and he (to me) is perfect. We are not dating. He’s too good for me. He’s lived life. He’s travelled and had a career and just lives life to the full. I feel tarnished. I could never give him the life he deserves. I’d drag him down.
Forever alone.

I feel so isolated and scared for my future. It’s not often you meet someone and connect,
I just feel like my life isn’t mine.

External influences like Narc parents sort of ‘plant seeds of doubt’ and that’s it. Does anybody understand this? I feel I have so much to work through.

Sorry x I’m sat at work in my car, after a not so good shift unsure whether to walk back in or drive and not stop...
Easier said than done but gove the guy a chance of you have genuine feelings for him. If he is a genuine person and likes you he won’t give a flying duck that you haven’t done XY&Z
Also apply for jobs and tell no one. Keep it tou yourself you don’t need to explain to anyone why you are looking for a new job.
If you get an interview amazing if you don’t then don’t worry there’s probably lots applying for the job and could have already found someone. And if you don’t get the job also don’t worry if theres only one job and twenty people interviewed then only one can get it and it doesn’t mean in anyway shape or form you aren’t good enough for the job.
 
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My mum when she found out we were thinking of buying a house:

“Oh you won’t get a house for less than €300,000 today - house prices are way up now *smirk*.”

Less than 10 minutes later:

“Oh you won’t get much for your house if you sell it - a few years ago maybe but not today - house prices are gone way down recently *smirk*.”

Saying whatever they think you don’t want to hear, even if it means contradicting themselves. What an utter arsewipe.
 
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One of the things that made me doubt my own judgement with my mum and where I actually gaslit myself, was when she would get extremely angry if she thought that someone else had insulted or disrespected me. Because of this, I would think “If she gets this annoyed over someone else disrespecting me, then there’s no way she’s doing it to me - I must be imagining it all.” What I didn’t realise until much later was that, in her mind, her children were her possessions and hers alone to abuse. It wasn’t that she was offended for me, it was more like “How dare they use my possession - only I am allowed to play those games with my possession!” - like a child throwing a tantrum when they’ve seen someone else play with their toys. Realising this was a fairly sad lightbulb moment, but an important one in realising that I’m not actually imagining her behaviour.
Those lightbulb moments are very bittersweet…
 
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