Narcissistic and toxic parents #2

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Has anyone got any wisdom on the impact of narc parents on current relationships? Only just found this thread.
Have realised that my mother is probably a narc. All my life her bad behaviour was excused as being not her fault because of depression. Father is an enabler. Sibling is the golden child. Feeling really stupid that I've spend 4 decades trying to please these people when its all really f**ked up. Always felt guilty and not good enough. Its easy to blame myself for things, other people will say she doesn't mean it or she's just down but when you take events and look at them objectively its really not OK. I've had a lot of mental health issues and the reaction to it was awful from the family. A combination of ignoring and mocking. I've never felt loved or supported. And all this time I've thought it was because I was defective and unlovable.
So since realising I've decided I need to go even lower contact with them but the therapy I've had to help me to realise that has now revealed to me the difficulties in my current relationship. Some pretty toxic and familiar patterns that have built up over the years. I'm terrified. Part of me thinks I need to cut and run but I literally have nowhere to run to. Another part of me is worried I'm overreacting because of all the grief and shock of realising what my family is really like. What I thought was love was really abuse. I feel like I can't trust myself at all and it feels super hopeless.
I could have written everything you described as your family. And yes, growing up around a narc affects other areas of your life and relationships. For me, it’s the people-pleasing, guilt/shame-driven responses that are maladaptive approaches adopted from young age that helped us cope with the awful aspects of family life. There are also some genuinely positive personality traits that children of narcs tend to develop such as being empathic, good listeners, trustworthy people.

For me, I’ve been very lucky with finding a supportive and loving partner who consistently reaffirms that I am a good, lovable person which has had a massive impact on how I see myself. However, I have issues with how I respond in friendships (esp with women) as I’d often resolve to the same maladaptive approaches, which lead to resentment and disappointment.

I think a lot of it comes from low self-esteem and doubt that I could be liked and loved for who I am which is the most destructive part of growing up with a narc parent. It needs a lot of practice and reminding that we are good as we are and worthy of love and respect, as well as keep practicing healthier ways to respond to people and situations. For me, acknowledging that the environment I grew up was not my fault and I deserved better has been a huge break through and I can see this more objectively as a parent now. I’ve accepted my family won’t change and stopped trying or expecting to get a different response from them, but also refuse being emotionally drawn in any more. My peace of mind is the biggest priority.
 
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I did the same - I spent decades trying to get my mother's approval. I felt like an idiot when I finally woke up.

AlwaysSummer has articulated everything I'd like to say. Hang in there.
 
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Worth remembering though that narcs feed off peoples’ reactions.

she knows her request is bizarre - how could she not?

if it were me, I’d grey rock. “I’m not able to come feed your dog”

your priority when interacting with a covert narc is protecting your own peace. What is her likely response to you pointing out how ridiculous the request is?

IME, my mum would maybe resort to calling me names “you’re so ungrateful” or maybe guilt tripping me “well I can’t feed the dog so now he’s going to starve and it’s your fault” or “you never do anything for me” etc etc.

IME with my own narc mother, the more I pushback with her, the more opportunity I give her to go off on a rant. The more ammo I give her to hurt me. Because the unjustness and the harshness and unfairness of her response always hurts me.
IME, she’s never going to suddenly realise her request is ridiculous. She’ll never be honest about her motives. She’ll never consider my POV. So it’s pointless trying to reason, which is why I grey rock.

pointing out how ridiculous she is gives some short term satisfaction, and helps me feel like I’m sticking up for myself. But ultimately it opens me up to more hurt when she responds with gaslighting or guilt and shaming. So over time I’ve learned that protecting my peace and ignoring her crappy texts is the best way to interact with her. I actually have her blocked on WhatsApp so I can control when and where I see her messages to me.

I’ll sometimes have a conversation with myself to validate how I’m feeling. “I’ve received this crappy annoying and confusing text, it feels so unfair and it’s unsettled me and I really want to stick up for myself and make her see how unfair she’s being”

then I’ll maybe point out to myself that narcs live off creating confusion and settling people. I tell myself that it is indeed, very unsettling and crappy and I validate my own feelings. Then I ask myself what outcome I want. Well, I want her to be fair. I want her to see my point of view. I want her empathy. I’ll then maybe rationalise that, she has never ever given those things to me in any conversation. So in lieu of that, what’s the next best thing?

the next best thing is peace of mind. And I don’t need her to realise her request is ridiculous to get that. I can give that to myself. If I believe it’s unreasonable and a stupid, unfair request - I don’t need the unreasonable and unfair person making the request to agree.

it’s been about maybe, 6 years? Since I realised my mum was very likely to be a covert narc. Protecting my peace of mind has always made me feel more contented and happier, but every person has to come to their own realisation on what works best for them.
This advice is 💯 spot on.
 
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A but if a random question, but how does everyone navigate having children with narcissist parents?

this is something that has weighed on my mind for years. My partner and I are trying for a baby soon, and I feel like having kids with a narcissist is a minefield too. (we are also planning a wedding which comes with its own challenges too…)

I moved overseas from my parents so I purposefully created a lot of distance between us, and I don’t really keep in much contact with them.

I absolutely have no intention of exposing any future children of mine to my parents. I don’t plan on letting them babysit, ever. I don’t want my children growing up seeing their mother being spoken to and treated the way my parents treat me. That’s a given.

but I don’t feel it’s my right to cut off a relationship completely. If they want to visit to see any children I have, fine.

part of my concern though is, how do you navigate conversations about narcissistic parents and what is age appropriate?

I’m jumping the gun here a lot but still…

how (and when?) do you explain to kids that grandma and grandpa weren’t nice to their mum? And to what extent? How can you help them realise that grandma is a covert narcissist and help them reconcile the cruelty behind her fun, bubbly facade?

one of my biggest fears with my mother and telling people about her narcissism, is not being believed. She’s so outgoing and charming and bubbly and nice. It took me years to appreciate that behind all that, is a deeply cruel, selfish and vindictive woman. If I struggled to believe it even though I witnessed it first hand, how will anyone else see it?

I don’t want to rob my child of an opportunity to have a relationship but equally, I wouldn’t want any kids to be duped and gaslit and harmed by her. The self doubt she instilled in me in childhood, is a constant battle for me.

interested to hear of peoples’ experiences with this or general views
 
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I’m in a similar position as living in a different country to my parents and keeping contact to a minimum. When my daughter was little they would babysit for a few hours if my husband and I went out for a meal. However she point blank refused to be left with them when she turned 6 and we’ve never left her on her own with them since. You can’t underestimate how perceptive kids are even at young age.
She’s 13 now and during a visit to see them last year she asked me directly why they are ‘not nice with me’. I explained that granny and grandpa are a little ‘weird’ and that how they treat me is not ok but that I’ve accepted them as they are. It was quite comical that my daughter’s immediate reaction was of incredulity- ‘but you are so lovable, mummy’.
I don’t feel the need to slag them off as they are her grandparent at the end of the day but equally I have made an effort to shield my daughter or at least explain that certain behaviours are no ok. They show minimal interest to be part of her life or get to know her for who she is (essentially the same toxic treatment they’ve given me) and that’s their loss really.
 
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A but if a random question, but how does everyone navigate having children with narcissist parents?

this is something that has weighed on my mind for years. My partner and I are trying for a baby soon, and I feel like having kids with a narcissist is a minefield too. (we are also planning a wedding which comes with its own challenges too…)

I moved overseas from my parents so I purposefully created a lot of distance between us, and I don’t really keep in much contact with them.

I absolutely have no intention of exposing any future children of mine to my parents. I don’t plan on letting them babysit, ever. I don’t want my children growing up seeing their mother being spoken to and treated the way my parents treat me. That’s a given.

but I don’t feel it’s my right to cut off a relationship completely. If they want to visit to see any children I have, fine.

part of my concern though is, how do you navigate conversations about narcissistic parents and what is age appropriate?

I’m jumping the gun here a lot but still…

how (and when?) do you explain to kids that grandma and grandpa weren’t nice to their mum? And to what extent? How can you help them realise that grandma is a covert narcissist and help them reconcile the cruelty behind her fun, bubbly facade?

one of my biggest fears with my mother and telling people about her narcissism, is not being believed. She’s so outgoing and charming and bubbly and nice. It took me years to appreciate that behind all that, is a deeply cruel, selfish and vindictive woman. If I struggled to believe it even though I witnessed it first hand, how will anyone else see it?

I don’t want to rob my child of an opportunity to have a relationship but equally, I wouldn’t want any kids to be duped and gaslit and harmed by her. The self doubt she instilled in me in childhood, is a constant battle for me.

interested to hear of peoples’ experiences with this or general views
I grew up never knowing my maternal grandparents. Nothing has ever been said as to why but they where not dead. The fact I never knew them never harmed me the thing that birthed me being a narc did though. So depending how they treat your kid it won’t be a big deal if they never see them. As long as they know they are loved by those around them.
 
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A but if a random question, but how does everyone navigate having children with narcissist parents?

this is something that has weighed on my mind for years. My partner and I are trying for a baby soon, and I feel like having kids with a narcissist is a minefield too. (we are also planning a wedding which comes with its own challenges too…)

I moved overseas from my parents so I purposefully created a lot of distance between us, and I don’t really keep in much contact with them.

I absolutely have no intention of exposing any future children of mine to my parents. I don’t plan on letting them babysit, ever. I don’t want my children growing up seeing their mother being spoken to and treated the way my parents treat me. That’s a given.

but I don’t feel it’s my right to cut off a relationship completely. If they want to visit to see any children I have, fine.

part of my concern though is, how do you navigate conversations about narcissistic parents and what is age appropriate?

I’m jumping the gun here a lot but still…

how (and when?) do you explain to kids that grandma and grandpa weren’t nice to their mum? And to what extent? How can you help them realise that grandma is a covert narcissist and help them reconcile the cruelty behind her fun, bubbly facade?

one of my biggest fears with my mother and telling people about her narcissism, is not being believed. She’s so outgoing and charming and bubbly and nice. It took me years to appreciate that behind all that, is a deeply cruel, selfish and vindictive woman. If I struggled to believe it even though I witnessed it first hand, how will anyone else see it?

I don’t want to rob my child of an opportunity to have a relationship but equally, I wouldn’t want any kids to be duped and gaslit and harmed by her. The self doubt she instilled in me in childhood, is a constant battle for me.

interested to hear of peoples’ experiences with this or general views
If your parents harmed you, they’ll harm your children. I’d stay well away. My mother ruined my relationship with one of my kids. Look up grandparent grooming.
 
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If your parents harmed you, they’ll harm your children. I’d stay well away. My mother ruined my relationship with one of my kids. Look up grandparent grooming.
I agree with this. If they are too toxic for you, they are too toxic for your children. Forget about ideas of societal expectations of families.
 
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So bit of a weird one but does anyone else’s mother triangulate (?) you with her dog??

To give some context, my mother has always used one of her children against the other. So for example, she would “boast” about my sister to me in a deliberately comparative and smug way, and then she would do the exact same thing (about me) to my sister. She would make us believe that the other child was the golden child and we’d actually end up resenting each other because each of us believed that the other was being treated better than us, except it was all false and orchestrated. My mother did this for years and seemed to enjoy - with a smirk - seeing us “jealous” of each other. When I started studying at uni, she said “I’m going to tell your sister that you’re actually lecturing there and have your own office!” (all lies). She also used to do this with my dad - she would put him down constantly and her goal seemed to be to make it obvious to him that she preferred her children. So my dad and I would be talking happily and she’d interrupt him and say, for instance: “ItsDatCuw doesn’t want to hear your crap. Apologise to her for talking such rubbish.”

Ever since my dad passed away three years ago, she’s been doing exactly this to me with that same intensity…except the other “golden” party is now her dog. So it’s the constant and very obvious/dramatic ways of letting me know that the dog is her favourite and her priority. Since I was offered a job at uni, she’s gotten worse. At first, she was all “proud” (for her own benefit obviously) and acting almost high, but a couple of days later she started being extremely cool with me and starting making a huge effort to praise the dog while I was there. So it’s (in a dull tone with a sigh): “Oh hi ItsDatCuw”, and immediately afterwards (in a happy tone to the dog): “Hello my boy! Hello baaaaaaaaby! (If he’s in the next room) I’ll be with you in a minute, love. Good boooooy! Who’s the best boy? Who’s mammy’s favourite? Lovely doggyyyyyyy.”

She will also say to me at random:

“I didn’t get you a birthday present because I had to get one for the dog. I LOVE that dog!”

“Sometimes I call him BABY!”

“If anything happened to him, I’d be LOST!”

“He (the dog) was your dad’s favourite child!”

The funny thing is that before my dad passed, she’d barely acknowledge the dog at all. It’s as though she needs two victims at all times: one to devalue and one to use to make the devaluation of the other seem worse? Wtf? It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic and weird.
 
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So bit of a weird one but does anyone else’s mother triangulate (?) you with her dog??

To give some context, my mother has always used one of her children against the other. So for example, she would “boast” about my sister to me in a deliberately comparative and smug way, and then she would do the exact same thing (about me) to my sister. She would make us believe that the other child was the golden child and we’d actually end up resenting each other because each of us believed that the other was being treated better than us, except it was all false and orchestrated. My mother did this for years and seemed to enjoy - with a smirk - seeing us “jealous” of each other. When I started studying at uni, she said “I’m going to tell your sister that you’re actually lecturing there and have your own office!” (all lies). She also used to do this with my dad - she would put him down constantly and her goal seemed to be to make it obvious to him that she preferred her children. So my dad and I would be talking happily and she’d interrupt him and say, for instance: “ItsDatCuw doesn’t want to hear your crap. Apologise to her for talking such rubbish.”

Ever since my dad passed away three years ago, she’s been doing exactly this to me with that same intensity…except the other “golden” party is now her dog. So it’s the constant and very obvious/dramatic ways of letting me know that the dog is her favourite and her priority. Since I was offered a job at uni, she’s gotten worse. At first, she was all “proud” (for her own benefit obviously) and acting almost high, but a couple of days later she started being extremely cool with me and starting making a huge effort to praise the dog while I was there. So it’s (in a dull tone with a sigh): “Oh hi ItsDatCuw”, and immediately afterwards (in a happy tone to the dog): “Hello my boy! Hello baaaaaaaaby! (If he’s in the next room) I’ll be with you in a minute, love. Good boooooy! Who’s the best boy? Who’s mammy’s favourite? Lovely doggyyyyyyy.”

She will also say to me at random:

“I didn’t get you a birthday present because I had to get one for the dog. I LOVE that dog!”

“Sometimes I call him BABY!”

“If anything happened to him, I’d be LOST!”

“He (the dog) was your dad’s favourite child!”

The funny thing is that before my dad passed, she’d barely acknowledge the dog at all. It’s as though she needs two victims at all times: one to devalue and one to use to make the devaluation of the other seem worse? Wtf? It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic and weird.
Not the bit with the dog but I suspect my mum did this with me and my sister. My brother was too much younger I think for it to be worth the effort but we both saw him as the golden child so maybe she didn’t need to.
 
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Not the bit with the dog but I suspect my mum did this with me and my sister. My brother was too much younger I think for it to be worth the effort but we both saw him as the golden child so maybe she didn’t need to.
It’s awful when you look back and realise what was actually happening. Why are they like this? 🤦‍♀️
 
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Oh my mum triangulated me and my sister like hell. That’s the worst part of it. A narc doesn’t just rob you of your self esteem, rob you of the experience of having a loving parent… they rob you of bonds with your siblings. Of your trust with other family members. As people, they are truly black holes that make everything around them disintegrate. Dementors if you will.

It makes sense that she’d use a dog to triangulate you. She wants to make you feel like you are lesser than a pet. That’s all it is. To control you through your own shame and feeling of worthlessness.

For my parents, triangulating would look like;
• One sibling would be bought a toy and the other wouldn’t. They’d make a point of it.
• If I spoke about my achievements, they’d immediately start hyping up my sister (and vice versa).
• If I was shopping as a kid with my mum, she’d spend the whole time buying stuff for my sister (and vice versa)
• “why can’t you be more like your sister”
• constantly bitching about my sister to me (and vice versa) growing up. Like petty, teenage girl in high school level stuff. If my sister had a disagreement with my mum, next time we’d be alone my mum would discuss how bad my sister’s temper was etc. this would alternate so the next time my mum had an argument with me, she’d go off and witch about me to my sister. She always made it pretty obvious that was what was happening. If she got into an argument with one, she’d suddenly be best friends with the other. It completely pitted my sister and I against each other; and to my regret I definitely unfairly said things about my sister because it was the only way I knew how to bond with my mum.
• in a similar vein, having a disagreement with my mum would inevitably involve her bringing in my sister (or others) to take her side. Sometimes she’d pretend to be on the phone with my grandma. Have a whole conversation acting like my grandma agreed with her. It wasn’t until I lifted a downstairs headset (landline phone back in the day) and realised there was no one else on the line, it wasn’t until then that I realised she’d been gaslighting me for years via phone calls within earshot.
My sister would be so desperate for my mums approval she would always take my mums side anyway.
• I never felt I could speak directly to my grandparents about things. Somehow my mother facilitated it so that conversations always went through her. Another form of triangulation.
• my mum would ask me to keep secrets, from my grandparents, from my siblings etc. from a young age. I don’t think it serves any real purpose other than to triangulate and create feelings of mistrust/shame and in a way, it created a habit of keeping secrets. Up until they died, I never felt I could tell my grandparents about aspects of my home life. It just wasn’t something I felt I could do. After they died… It dawned on me that I didn’t need to hide my parents’ behaviour from anyone and I started opening up more about it to friends etc.
• my mother wasn’t above weaponising relationships either. I adored my little brother. He was the golden child and was spoiled totally by my mother. He sees her as a wonderful, loving mother. When I disagree with her she threatens to tell him, knowing he’ll take her side in all likelihood.
• my mum was really good at creating a culture of scarcity.. it’s hard to explain.. but it felt like my siblings and I were always having to compete for things like snacks, money, attention.. etc.


Triangulation takes so many forms. I think I’m still reflecting and figuring it out.

But I think when you understand it, can identify what it is… it takes away a lot of its power. Also doing a lot of work on building my self esteem helped me.

My mum flew into a narcissistic rage a year or so ago. The last time I spoke with her at length really. Because I’ve done a lot of therapy/work on myself… I didn’t feel as uncomfortable with the guilt. She was calling me a terrible person for XYZ but, I think that she was weaponising certain things against me. As it dawned on her that her old “tools” weren’t working, I could really sense her spiralling. She got more and more erratic and cruel and vicious and I just… kinda calmly responded. Finally, she got to an area that *did* still affect me. She threatened to “tell” my brother about our argument. What she meant by that was, I’m going to give him a heavily filtered version of events and manipulate him into siding with me.

This hurt because.. I love my brother. And for a split second I was genuinely terrified. But I paused before responding, and realised that… I *have* to be comfortable with my brother (and other people) misunderstanding me sometimes. And I have to trust in his love for me as his sister.

So I simply told her she was free to mention whatever she wanted to with my brother, as her relationship with him was none of my business.

I think she knew I was beyond her reach after that point. In a weird way, I found it a bit amusing. Like this poor woman, so desperate and out of control and pathetic that she has to resort to this? What a loser.

I’m not sure what she said to him in the end. He and I had a sort-of conversation about it. I basically said I respected that he has love and affection for our parents, but my experience of them was very different. We’ve kinda come to an understanding that we don’t get involved in arguments on each others behalf now. Having that respectful conversation with him, has protected us from her triangulation tactics for the most part. Unfortunately with my sister, it’s too late and too much damage has been done.

It’s crappy what your mum is doing RE the dog. But I hope that your self esteem and love for yourself reminds you that, just because your mum wants to pretend you’re not worthy, just because she doesn’t want to see your value - doesn’t mean that it’s not there. Narcissists see the world through a rotten, nasty lens and that’s their problem. I hope you’re able to laugh at how pathetic she is being and that that removes some of the sting.
 
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Oh my mum triangulated me and my sister like hell. That’s the worst part of it. A narc doesn’t just rob you of your self esteem, rob you of the experience of having a loving parent… they rob you of bonds with your siblings. Of your trust with other family members. As people, they are truly black holes that make everything around them disintegrate. Dementors if you will.

It makes sense that she’d use a dog to triangulate you. She wants to make you feel like you are lesser than a pet. That’s all it is. To control you through your own shame and feeling of worthlessness.

For my parents, triangulating would look like;
• One sibling would be bought a toy and the other wouldn’t. They’d make a point of it.
• If I spoke about my achievements, they’d immediately start hyping up my sister (and vice versa).
• If I was shopping as a kid with my mum, she’d spend the whole time buying stuff for my sister (and vice versa)
• “why can’t you be more like your sister”
• constantly bitching about my sister to me (and vice versa) growing up. Like petty, teenage girl in high school level stuff. If my sister had a disagreement with my mum, next time we’d be alone my mum would discuss how bad my sister’s temper was etc. this would alternate so the next time my mum had an argument with me, she’d go off and witch about me to my sister. She always made it pretty obvious that was what was happening. If she got into an argument with one, she’d suddenly be best friends with the other. It completely pitted my sister and I against each other; and to my regret I definitely unfairly said things about my sister because it was the only way I knew how to bond with my mum.
• in a similar vein, having a disagreement with my mum would inevitably involve her bringing in my sister (or others) to take her side. Sometimes she’d pretend to be on the phone with my grandma. Have a whole conversation acting like my grandma agreed with her. It wasn’t until I lifted a downstairs headset (landline phone back in the day) and realised there was no one else on the line, it wasn’t until then that I realised she’d been gaslighting me for years via phone calls within earshot.
My sister would be so desperate for my mums approval she would always take my mums side anyway.
• I never felt I could speak directly to my grandparents about things. Somehow my mother facilitated it so that conversations always went through her. Another form of triangulation.
• my mum would ask me to keep secrets, from my grandparents, from my siblings etc. from a young age. I don’t think it serves any real purpose other than to triangulate and create feelings of mistrust/shame and in a way, it created a habit of keeping secrets. Up until they died, I never felt I could tell my grandparents about aspects of my home life. It just wasn’t something I felt I could do. After they died… It dawned on me that I didn’t need to hide my parents’ behaviour from anyone and I started opening up more about it to friends etc.
• my mother wasn’t above weaponising relationships either. I adored my little brother. He was the golden child and was spoiled totally by my mother. He sees her as a wonderful, loving mother. When I disagree with her she threatens to tell him, knowing he’ll take her side in all likelihood.
• my mum was really good at creating a culture of scarcity.. it’s hard to explain.. but it felt like my siblings and I were always having to compete for things like snacks, money, attention.. etc.


Triangulation takes so many forms. I think I’m still reflecting and figuring it out.

But I think when you understand it, can identify what it is… it takes away a lot of its power. Also doing a lot of work on building my self esteem helped me.

My mum flew into a narcissistic rage a year or so ago. The last time I spoke with her at length really. Because I’ve done a lot of therapy/work on myself… I didn’t feel as uncomfortable with the guilt. She was calling me a terrible person for XYZ but, I think that she was weaponising certain things against me. As it dawned on her that her old “tools” weren’t working, I could really sense her spiralling. She got more and more erratic and cruel and vicious and I just… kinda calmly responded. Finally, she got to an area that *did* still affect me. She threatened to “tell” my brother about our argument. What she meant by that was, I’m going to give him a heavily filtered version of events and manipulate him into siding with me.

This hurt because.. I love my brother. And for a split second I was genuinely terrified. But I paused before responding, and realised that… I *have* to be comfortable with my brother (and other people) misunderstanding me sometimes. And I have to trust in his love for me as his sister.

So I simply told her she was free to mention whatever she wanted to with my brother, as her relationship with him was none of my business.

I think she knew I was beyond her reach after that point. In a weird way, I found it a bit amusing. Like this poor woman, so desperate and out of control and pathetic that she has to resort to this? What a loser.

I’m not sure what she said to him in the end. He and I had a sort-of conversation about it. I basically said I respected that he has love and affection for our parents, but my experience of them was very different. We’ve kinda come to an understanding that we don’t get involved in arguments on each others behalf now. Having that respectful conversation with him, has protected us from her triangulation tactics for the most part. Unfortunately with my sister, it’s too late and too much damage has been done.

It’s crappy what your mum is doing RE the dog. But I hope that your self esteem and love for yourself reminds you that, just because your mum wants to pretend you’re not worthy, just because she doesn’t want to see your value - doesn’t mean that it’s not there. Narcissists see the world through a rotten, nasty lens and that’s their problem. I hope you’re able to laugh at how pathetic she is being and that that removes some of the sting.
I’m so sorry. I can relate to so much of what you’ve written so I know how crappy it is.
 
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Oh my mum triangulated me and my sister like hell. That’s the worst part of it. A narc doesn’t just rob you of your self esteem, rob you of the experience of having a loving parent… they rob you of bonds with your siblings. Of your trust with other family members. As people, they are truly black holes that make everything around them disintegrate. Dementors if you will.

It makes sense that she’d use a dog to triangulate you. She wants to make you feel like you are lesser than a pet. That’s all it is. To control you through your own shame and feeling of worthlessness.

For my parents, triangulating would look like;
• One sibling would be bought a toy and the other wouldn’t. They’d make a point of it.
• If I spoke about my achievements, they’d immediately start hyping up my sister (and vice versa).
• If I was shopping as a kid with my mum, she’d spend the whole time buying stuff for my sister (and vice versa)
• “why can’t you be more like your sister”
• constantly bitching about my sister to me (and vice versa) growing up. Like petty, teenage girl in high school level stuff. If my sister had a disagreement with my mum, next time we’d be alone my mum would discuss how bad my sister’s temper was etc. this would alternate so the next time my mum had an argument with me, she’d go off and witch about me to my sister. She always made it pretty obvious that was what was happening. If she got into an argument with one, she’d suddenly be best friends with the other. It completely pitted my sister and I against each other; and to my regret I definitely unfairly said things about my sister because it was the only way I knew how to bond with my mum.
• in a similar vein, having a disagreement with my mum would inevitably involve her bringing in my sister (or others) to take her side. Sometimes she’d pretend to be on the phone with my grandma. Have a whole conversation acting like my grandma agreed with her. It wasn’t until I lifted a downstairs headset (landline phone back in the day) and realised there was no one else on the line, it wasn’t until then that I realised she’d been gaslighting me for years via phone calls within earshot.
My sister would be so desperate for my mums approval she would always take my mums side anyway.
• I never felt I could speak directly to my grandparents about things. Somehow my mother facilitated it so that conversations always went through her. Another form of triangulation.
• my mum would ask me to keep secrets, from my grandparents, from my siblings etc. from a young age. I don’t think it serves any real purpose other than to triangulate and create feelings of mistrust/shame and in a way, it created a habit of keeping secrets. Up until they died, I never felt I could tell my grandparents about aspects of my home life. It just wasn’t something I felt I could do. After they died… It dawned on me that I didn’t need to hide my parents’ behaviour from anyone and I started opening up more about it to friends etc.
• my mother wasn’t above weaponising relationships either. I adored my little brother. He was the golden child and was spoiled totally by my mother. He sees her as a wonderful, loving mother. When I disagree with her she threatens to tell him, knowing he’ll take her side in all likelihood.
• my mum was really good at creating a culture of scarcity.. it’s hard to explain.. but it felt like my siblings and I were always having to compete for things like snacks, money, attention.. etc.


Triangulation takes so many forms. I think I’m still reflecting and figuring it out.

But I think when you understand it, can identify what it is… it takes away a lot of its power. Also doing a lot of work on building my self esteem helped me.

My mum flew into a narcissistic rage a year or so ago. The last time I spoke with her at length really. Because I’ve done a lot of therapy/work on myself… I didn’t feel as uncomfortable with the guilt. She was calling me a terrible person for XYZ but, I think that she was weaponising certain things against me. As it dawned on her that her old “tools” weren’t working, I could really sense her spiralling. She got more and more erratic and cruel and vicious and I just… kinda calmly responded. Finally, she got to an area that *did* still affect me. She threatened to “tell” my brother about our argument. What she meant by that was, I’m going to give him a heavily filtered version of events and manipulate him into siding with me.

This hurt because.. I love my brother. And for a split second I was genuinely terrified. But I paused before responding, and realised that… I *have* to be comfortable with my brother (and other people) misunderstanding me sometimes. And I have to trust in his love for me as his sister.

So I simply told her she was free to mention whatever she wanted to with my brother, as her relationship with him was none of my business.

I think she knew I was beyond her reach after that point. In a weird way, I found it a bit amusing. Like this poor woman, so desperate and out of control and pathetic that she has to resort to this? What a loser.

I’m not sure what she said to him in the end. He and I had a sort-of conversation about it. I basically said I respected that he has love and affection for our parents, but my experience of them was very different. We’ve kinda come to an understanding that we don’t get involved in arguments on each others behalf now. Having that respectful conversation with him, has protected us from her triangulation tactics for the most part. Unfortunately with my sister, it’s too late and too much damage has been done.

It’s crappy what your mum is doing RE the dog. But I hope that your self esteem and love for yourself reminds you that, just because your mum wants to pretend you’re not worthy, just because she doesn’t want to see your value - doesn’t mean that it’s not there. Narcissists see the world through a rotten, nasty lens and that’s their problem. I hope you’re able to laugh at how pathetic she is being and that that removes some of the sting.

Thank you so much for your encouragement and also for sharing your experience. The fake phone calls were so horribly typical of a narcissistic mother - very manipulative and emotionally abusive.

Only very recently (in the last year or so) has my self-esteem reached a point where I can usually see through her actions and find it either amusing or just incredibly sad. I think a big part of reaching that point was letting go of the expectation of having a normal mother and a normal mother/daughter relationship, while also realising that she herself is obviously damaged in a lot of ways. Having said that, there are still times when it does hurt but those reactions are becoming less common, thankfully.

You explained it perfectly and I’m amazed at how similar our mothers are in terms of triangulating patterns: one sibling being deliberately left out of everything; being asked to keep weird secrets; the subtle ways of teaching us not to speak of our own achievements or we’d be devalued in some way; the constant bitching about one sibling to the other; the efforts to recruit “allies” after an argument and the encouragement to take sides; suddenly becoming our “best friend” while the other sibling is being demonized; bonding by speaking mean about your sibling (I’ve done this in the past too and also really regret it now).

My mum would literally run to one of us or to my dad immediately after an argument and she’d start frantically bad-mouthing that sibling, only stopping when she was satisfied that she’d successfully turned that person against them. Because of all this, the golden child/scapegoat labels were constantly being moved around and you never knew which one you’d be on any particular day. It’s awful to say this but it was almost a relief when she was demonizing another sibling, because I knew I’d be treated well and with respect during that time, even if it was false and temporary. All of this was “normal” to us growing up and now it seems horrific. Because of all this, I’m not close to any of my siblings either, apart from one brother, which is quite sad.

One incident that I’ll never forget actually was when my mum, only about 5 years ago, had a huge argument with my brother. She immediately rang my older sister - she hadn’t spoken to her in about 3 years(!) - just to rant about my brother’s bad behaviour. 🤦‍♀️

Behind it all, they’re just childish bullies that never matured, aren’t they.
 
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My mum yesterday when she found out I got a second job at uni:

To me: “Oh well done. That is great.”

Immediately to the dog: “Goooood boy! Who’s the best boy? YOU are! YOU are! GOOOD BOOOOY!”

Immediately to me: “*Dog* didn’t get his job yet - he’s still in play school!”

Wtf? Lmao.
 
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Told my Mum I felt overwhelmed and lonely because I have no support and it's all on me to do everything, hoping she might offer some support, she said yeah life is tough, i'm annoyed with BT and proceeded to change the subject completely. Yawn. Case in point!
 
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Told my Mum I felt overwhelmed and lonely because I have no support and it's all on me to do everything, hoping she might offer some support, she said yeah life is tough, i'm annoyed with BT and proceeded to change the subject completely. Yawn. Case in point!
Apparently we have the same mum! The constant invalidation is one of their worst traits.
 
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First time posting here, have been reading through your posts. I can relate to lots of you and wanted to say I see you and see how absolutely tit it is having narc and emotionally immature parents.
I’ve been NC with my mum for nearly 18 years, I moved away to uni and our relationship broke down when I realised how toxic it was. I’d always been fed and had clean clothes so didn’t think you could call it abuse but now many years on and after seeking therapy, I now understand she’s a narc and it was.
My relationship with my Dad has always just bumbled along (my parents divorced when I was young) he never knew the full extent of what went on but knew it wasn’t good. In recent years my relationship with him has broken down due to his emotional immaturity and we are now pretty much NC.
I just feel so sad sometimes that the two people who are meant to love and protect you more than anyone else in the world can fail so miserably and cause so much emotional hurt and damage. For most of my life I’ve been able to carry on and feel like I can cope with this tit situation but since I’ve had my own kids it’s cracked open a lot of wounds.
 
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How do you deal with a stepmum who makes underlying bitching comments to you? Just last weekend we were away for a family get together and my dad said he liked my boots. I said I got them off vinted and my stepmum said something along the lines of how I’d managed to find a pair in my size. FYI I’m a uk7/Eur40. Hardly gigantic.
Typing it out, it doesn’t sound particularly bitchy, but when she tries to put you down either in front of my dad, or not, who is oblivious to it, it really begins to wind me up.
 
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How do you deal with a stepmum who makes underlying bitching comments to you? Just last weekend we were away for a family get together and my dad said he liked my boots. I said I got them off vinted and my stepmum said something along the lines of how I’d managed to find a pair in my size. FYI I’m a uk7/Eur40. Hardly gigantic.
Typing it out, it doesn’t sound particularly bitchy, but when she tries to put you down either in front of my dad, or not, who is oblivious to it, it really begins to wind me up.
She’s a twit. I’m a 42.5, size 40 is pretty average.
 
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