Michael Jackson

[Youtubegossip]

Jimmy Saville is dead and can’t defend himself, Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a weirdo ffs.

MJ is such an icon that people don’t WANT to believe it. There’s a lot of evidence and statements from other people that don’t look good on him

He was never going to say when he was alive ‘yeah I’m into young boys’ was he. Let’s be realistic

 

[Youtubegossip]

I just think that once a person is dead it should be laid to rest.

Why should it? The people who if it’s true are now traumatised by it can’t be at rest. Maybe the truth coming out can help them move on?

We’re all jimmy savilles victims told to just leave it? Can’t believe you’d even suggest it. Because it’s MJ it’s different?

 

[Peeltheavocado]

I just think that once a person is dead it should be laid to rest.

I’ve only just started reading this thread but had to say something about this comment.
Sorry but this comment disgusts me. I’m a survivor of childhood trauma, my partner was sexually abused, I have friends who were sexually abused. Some of those abusers are dead. Some were brought to justice and some weren’t. It’s NEVER laid to rest for the victims of abuse, NEVER

 

[Inkling95]

I think to have a solid conversation on this topic, we all need to drop tabloid articles and “I read this...” “he did that according to this paper...” - it doesn’t help anyone.

From the perspective of actual science and psychology, they’re either the best actors/behaviour mimics in the world with an in depth researched story or they’re telling the truth. The entire world was groomed to adore MJ, so it was a weird relationship between him and the boys from the get go. The families and parents were also groomed, that’s how abusers work. Look at Ian Watkins and his crimes (don’t they’re horrific - he groomed his fans to gain access to their children).

Just because some people say it didn’t happen to person a, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to person b. So Corey Feldman and Macauley Culkin are irrelevant unless they were with MJ and/or the boys at all times. But as they were also young, they were susceptible to the grooming going on.

Now onto “well they said it didn’t happen before” - Stockholm syndrome and grooming. They’re still somewhat caught in the web. The amount of grooming and abuse (not just physical) psychologically damages children. Inconsistencies with the stories shouldn’t just mean they get thrown away because it’s not timelined perfectly - if it were, that’s too perfect for accurate memory and actually shows evidence of lies tbh.

Either way, MJ was an absolute creep. No grown ass man should be even asking for random children to stay at his house. Whether he committed these atrocities or not is by the by, he was a weirdo period. These men shouldn’t be harassed or abused or called liars - there’s no evidence either way. And that’s the take the Jackson family, friends and fans should take - I’m sad these allegations have come out, but unfortunately MJ isn’t here to defend himself, and if he had we’d co-operate fully with the justice system etc. Doubling down is never a good look (cough Creepy Ingham cough)

But that’s just me, and my take.

 

[Boogs]

I think it’s really important to remember that lots of survivors of childhood sexual abuse never disclose it to anyone or some don’t until their abuser has been dead for many years. He was an expert at grooming boys and they felt like they were in a relationship with him and that it wasn’t abuse. They felt like they had to protect him.

I’m a very open and outspoken person but a few weeks ago I disclosed things that had happened to me 35 years ago and this was the first time I’d ever said it out loud. The reasons why people don’t disclose things even when directly asked are complex and I think that we shouldn’t question people’s credibility because they didn’t speak out earlier.

 

[Youtubegossip]

Wasn't it proven years ago that he wasn't guilty? And let's face it who lets there child sleep round a mans house?
Micheal was allowed custody of all his children, so obviously the social didn't think he was a danger.
Yes MJ was weird but I honestly believe he was to child like to actually do anything to these boys.
Jimmy Saville on the other hand looked dirty and perverted.

At the end of the day I'm just stating my opinion, were all entitled to our own opinion.

Haha now your being ridiculous.

Jimmy Saville looked dirty and perverted? What do Peados look like?? They can be anywhere amongst us, they don’t all look ‘like peados’

I agree with ‘what kind of parent let’s their child share a bed with a grown man’ but again these boys were children so that is MJ and their parents faults. You’re basically victim shaming...

Also, he wasn’t found not guilty he settled out of court to make it go away.

With copious amounts of money comes a lot of power. Let’s not forget he hung his baby out of a window either.

Not exactly coming out of the woodwork AFTER he was dead..
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/people/michael-jackson-paid-134-million-in-payoffs-to-stop-up-to-20-sex-abuse-victims-speaking-out-say-10159103.html?amp

Also, yes your more than entitled to your opinion. But saying people shouldn’t come out just because someone is dead, or saville was a weirdo because he looked like one and MJ didn’t etc etc is just ill informed

 

[Fudgecakes]

I was a Michael Jackson fan (not fanatic) and was ready to disbelieve them. Having watched it all and other interviews, such as Oprah I have NO doubt he was a very powerful, manipulative paedophile. I believe every word those two men shared.

Just because a predator is dead, does not mean we should discount the victims and in this case does not make his HIDEOUS crimes forgivable.

Yes, I 100% agree with you. I have no doubt these two gentlemen are telling the truth. People seem to have forgotten that they were conditioned and brainwashed at such an early age. It can take people years and years to come out and speak about their troubles, I hope they find peace.

 

[PineappleQueen19]

It’s often the case in trials and indeed in the court of public opinion, there are “good” victims and “bad” victims. It happens a lot in rape cases (hence why it’s effectively been decriminalised in the U.K. at least), also in everything from child abuse to murder. Look what happened to Joanne Lees in the Peter Falconio murder trial. Or the recent-ish rape case in Ireland where the victim’s knickers were passed around and her sex life openly raked through. Happens every day.

Reading this, for example, does not put Wade Robson in the best light. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....chael-Jackson-sex-abuse-claims-tell-book.html

However. Your character and actions don’t need to be above reproach for the things you claim to have happened to be the truth.

Perhaps neither of the men are textbook “good” victims.. with Wade possibly less so out of the two. Nevertheless I believe both of them. There’s little doubt in my mind that MJ was pedophile and used his money, fame and power to get his way.

 

[Horatio]

Representing the “pro- Michael Jackson” camp really well there.

 

[Catwoman]

I was a Michael Jackson fan (not fanatic) and was ready to disbelieve them. Having watched it all and other interviews, such as Oprah I have NO doubt he was a very powerful, manipulative paedophile. I believe every word those two men shared.

Just because a predator is dead, does not mean we should discount the victims and in this case does not make his HIDEOUS crimes forgivable.

 

[Horatio]

Very common to defend and lie for your abuser. A great many abused children take it to the grave, so that part of this doesn’t seem off to me.

Yeah as the director says in the interview linked above, the documentary is in a way more a study of the long term impact of child abuse on its victims than some kind of scandalous exposè of MJ. They both talk about him in such a similar way - though very upset you can tell their childhood adoration is still with them. Though their logical, adult side know the horror of what was done to them, there’s really no anger or malice towards him. He brainwashed them so thoroughly as children even death and adulthood can’t fully fix it. It’s tragic but facisnating.

And yes it’s what most child abusers do - as they are usually family members or friends. But I think something about the colossal level of his celebrity made his power over people even stronger. the two of them show such similar responses - but are not allowed to be in contact according to that article - it’s almost inconveivable that they could both pull off acts of such complexity if it was all a big lie.
And as has also been pointed out, why shouldn’t they ask for money? They were raped for years as children by one of the richest singers that ever lived. It’s their right to take that to court and sue for damages. As if that will get their childhood back.

(Apologies for lumping Wade and Jimmy together I know their cases do have some differences - it was partly for the sake of the argument and partly because I do confuse some of the stories and details)

 

[Inkling95]

Your both deluded and with a name like fudge cakes well.........

Can you mind your manners? People have different opinions, but to go into a topic as sensitive as these and discredit people’s opinions on the alleged victims by naming calling is not on. Get the fuck outta here with that attitude.

 

[vikka]

Memory is a chronichally unreliable thing, we all remember many things wrong even when we are convinced we remember something 100% right.

Particularly traumatic experiences will be fudged with by our brain, partly to protect ourselves from deeper trauma.

Victims not remembering stuff 100% right, messing up events and places and thinking abuse happened in place 1 instead of 2 (even if that place didn't exist then and was built later) doesn't make these people liars and is one of the reasons people don't speak out, because the victims get such abuse by others for speaking out and being made out to be liars.

I watched Leaving Neverland and don't doubt the 2 mens' stories at all. Seemed very real to me.

Others, like Macaulay Caulkin, who claim they were not abused either were indeed never abused, haven't processed it yet or just don't want to go public with it, not (just) to protect their abuser, but also themselves (not to be seen constantly as victim, to move on from it etc etc).

I don't know why Caulkin's word is taken for truth but the victims' isn't by MJ defenders?

I don't care that MJ has been found innocent by a court, plenty of innocent people are found guilty and plenty of guilty people are found to be innocent by courts.
One juror (old man) voted R Kelly to be innocent (years ago), because he didn't like the way one of the victims (young woman) dressed and spoke!!!! Wtf.

The reason why abuse victims come out only later, mis-remember things etc etc are so complex and deep that it isn't a simple case of "they need money and that building didn't exist then! they are gold diggers and liars!"
I mean it also takes many domestic abuse victims years, some even decades, to leave.
So easy to sit at the other side and say "why didn't you leave sooner?" "why didn't you speak out?" "why didn't you go to the authorities?"

I also think it's hard for kids, even as adults, to admit to themselves that their abuser is an abuser when they are liked by the parents. If your parents like someone, how can that person be bad? Psyche is complex and it takes time to reconcile yourself with reality.

I don't know about the estate etc, but many people would lie when they think they won't be believed over technicalities etc.
"Do you know of the estate's worth?" "yes" "so you want money?!"
"Do you know of the estate's worth?" (If I say yes they'll think me a gold digger) "no".

There's no way that all these boys' (now men's) stories would have similarities if they weren't true.
And so much more.

I don't get how people so passionately defend MJ, R Kelly and others?

 

[Member 1942]

I believe them.
There’s not a shadow of doubt in my mind that MJ was a terrible, but very clever, predator.

 

[Mayday]

Well if you believe it catwoman then we all should as your opinion must be right because u were there and u know the truth

No one said that?

Your both deluded and with a name like fudge cakes well.........

Its not cool to attack members for having a different opinion to you. You can have a discussion without the childish insults.

 

[Hepaticus]

Those 2 guys swore that nothing happened to them and that Michael was innocent of sex abuse, suddeny they "ready to tell their story" and I smell a rat, its also quite handy that MJ has been dead for nearly 10 years and can't defend himself.

Very common to defend and lie for your abuser. A great many abused children take it to the grave, so that part of this doesn’t seem off to me.

 

[Sassie]

I’m not worked up at all. I’m happy for peoples opinions as I am an all threads. No one has to agree.

The reason I mentioned Jimmy Saville was because someone said if a person is dead their alleged crimes should be laid to rest with them which I disagree with and as per your point here we’re all allowed difference of opinions.

Ps. 1000000% isn’t a thing. Max is 100% ? that’s tongue in cheek incase I have to clarify

Slightly off topic, but .. I have a holiday home in Scarborough (a small seaside resort in the UK).

Jimmy Savile lived there, and was pretty much hailed a hero. When he passed away he was given what was close to a state funeral send off, memorials were erected all over the town (street signs, plaque on his flat, etc) and he was awarded a Freedom of Scarborough honour. He was adored in his home town (predominantly by the older generation!).

Once the massive abuse scandal broke, anything and everything containing his name was removed. Even his headstone was taken down and sent to landfill.

He was once the talk of the town (even after he’d died), but now it’s like everyone acts like he didn’t exist. I was in a pub close to his home last year, and a guy struck up a conversation with a local about him .. the tumbleweed was unreal, and he abruptly left (think he thought he was going to get a good hiding ?).

Basically, in that huge warble, I guess what I’m trying to say is .. the mighty fall extremely hard.

For the record, he ALWAYS gave me the chills .. especially when he wore his marathon gear ?

 

[MunkyMagic]

I just watched it and urgh, it was sickening. I believe Safechuck and Robson. I think (in Robson’s case) just because he’s a known liar doesn’t mean he can’t tell the truth, and in Safechuck’s case he is just hollowed. I watched bits of the Oprah interview before the documentary and looking back it again after hearing his testimony you can visibly see he’s curled in on himself.

They talk of the conflict of deeply loving and wanting to protect Jackson and not recognising their abuse for what it was until they could put it into context as an adult and parent. Robson also talks about the 2014 lawsuit as wanting the same forum to replay the 2003 one to put it “right” - that makes sense in terms of what we know about survivor guilt and wanting to reinact rescue scenarios. In 2003 he was trying to rescue Jackson and in 2014 he was trying to rescue other victims. It just all seems psychologically plausible.

I the case of chandler saying Jackson was circumcised when he wasn’t, without wanting to be too graphic I guess it’s possible for a 13 year old to understand that to be the case when seeing an erect adult penis with the foreskin pulled back and glans exposed.

I can understand people having difficulty believing Jackson would carry out such things, though. It’s a huge thing to reconcile.

 

[uwu]

Now we all know MJ was a bit weird and creepy which made he him do some unusual things, but the fact not one piece of evidence of child molestation was found by the FBI over a 10 or so year period of them investigating him makes me wonder why these two men have come out now. Wade Robson already seemed a bit shady and was still praising MJ for many years after his death and then apparently wakes up one day and says he was abused. Kinda seems a bit fishy, also in court documents he says he has to ask him mum many times what exactly happened to him.

I don't really know what to believe if I'm being honest because it's literally their word against a dead man with no actual evidence to back up any of their claims.

 

[SarahGard83]

Just finished watching it and there's no doubt in my mind that they are telling the truth. Was horrifying listening to them recall the way Michael used his power to abuse them