Lucy Letby Case #9

[Emmelina Ball]

[

Re: Dr Jayaram. It hasn't said what channels he went through to raise his suspicions though and he is still only giving evidence on baby A and B at the moment which are the first suspected cases. We have no idea how many times he had raised concerns at that stage or since then as it hasnt been reported on. It's a huge jump to blame him when we have no idea at this stage what he did or didn't do. Hopefully that will be revealed as we go further into the evidence during the trial.

You also need evidence and in fairness, if it took the police a few years and 3 arrests to get this past CPS threshold then I would say they've really had to fight to find the evidence to back up the allegations. Therefore, how much power did he really have to take it further if senior managers shot it down?

As a side note, I wonder why a nurse witness wouldn't be named for legal reasons? I get someone being a minor, or the anonymity for fsmily and the babies involved, but its quite unusual for an adult witness to not be named

It said he and senior colleagues raised concerns to hospital managers and that he wished he had been more courageous - that indicates it ended there when they brushed it off.

He not only had power to raise it further, he had a duty to raise it further. They at the very least, suspected that she wasn’t performing well and may be implicated in babies deteriorating some how.

 

[Tofino]

I’ve not seen anyone saying he’s lying? But I may have missed that.

What I am seeing is a lot of people defending someone who’s been professionally negligent and failed to do their job- and those same people somehow asking everyone to be angry at the accused (who’s yet to be found guilty) but not to be angry at someone who’s admitted wrongdoing?

Imagine being told to be angry at her but simultaneously not be angry at him? You can be angry at both of them!!! Why shouldn’t people be angry at him? He admitted to not doing his job properly!

Yeah Slingo was saying him raising concerns wasn’t plausible, and asked me where I thought him raising concerns would fit in the timeline.

What I’ve seen is some individuals defending and justify Lucy’s behaviour on various bits of evidence - who is the one on trial for murder remember - but then outraged at the one witness who has testified he suspected her (I totally agree he didn’t do enough and people can be angry about that). I’m certainly not saying don’t be angry at him. I just don’t know how people can only be angry at him and defend her, or justify her actions.

She was the one that just dismissed the 3 June baby deaths in a message to her colleague who raised how odd it was with her. If you don’t think she’s guilty of murder then didn’t she fail in her job just as much as he did?

 

[I’mThankyou_]

Re: Dr Jayaram. It hasn't said what channels he went through to raise his suspicions though and he is still only giving evidence on baby A and B at the moment which are the first suspected cases. We have no idea how many times he had raised concerns at that stage or since then as it hasnt been reported on. It's a huge jump to blame him when we have no idea at this stage what he did or didn't do. Hopefully that will be revealed as we go further into the evidence during the trial.

You also need evidence and in fairness, if it took the police a few years and 3 arrests to get this past CPS threshold then I would say they've really had to fight to find the evidence to back up the allegations. Therefore, how much power did he really have to take it further if senior managers shot it down?

As a side note, I wonder why a nurse witness wouldn't be named for legal reasons? I get someone being a minor, or the anonymity for fsmily and the babies involved, but its quite unusual for an adult witness to not be named

Perhaps to protect her career and family?
No one wants the UK media at the doorstep hounding them post trial, (we know what they can be like) it's not something you want to be associated with for the rest of your career as someone who worked along side a horrific baby killer.

 

[Lucymyers]

He did take it further. Obviously nowhere near far enough.
To be fair, we don’t actually know just how far he tried to take it yet.
I think, if she is guilty, she’ll be taking a lot down with her, and, if she’s that way inclined, she would enjoy that.
I mean, her post-it note was all about her. No mention of the babies or her colleagues/friends.

it had four colleagues names on didnt it?

 

[Tofino]

[
It said he and senior colleagues raised concerns to hospital managers and that he wished he had been more courageous - that indicates it ended there when they brushed it off.

He not only had power to raise it further, he had a duty to raise it further. They at the very least, suspected that she wasn’t performing well and may be implicated in babies deteriorating some how. View attachment 1675141

Looks like he’s not the only one to be angry at then. But very, very damning for Lucy that multiple colleagues had suspicions about her. Especially if we don’t see her raise any concerns herself. And very damning that the hospital bosses ignored the concerns people were raising.

 

[jackolantern]

Looks like he’s not the only one to be angry at then. But very, very damning for Lucy that multiple colleagues had suspicions about her. Especially if we don’t see her raise any concerns herself. And very damning that the hospital bosses ignored the concerns people were raising.

This is why the scapegoat thing makes no sense. It looks far worse for the NHS that they ignored concerns over a nurse potentially hurting/murdering babies than just admitting understaffing and generally lower standards of care.

 

[Tofino]

Perhaps to protect her career and family?
No one wants the UK media at the doorstep hounding them post trial, (we know what they can be like) it's not something you want to be associated with for the rest of your career as someone who worked along side a horrific baby killer.

I’ve wondered if it’s staff still working in the NNU at COCH that are not allowed to be named?

 

[Notworthy]

To me it sounds as though he just raised the point that Lucy was always there rather than actually anything more concrete. According to his testimony it was he and some senior colleagues that raised concerns. Is it really likely that that would be dismissed if they actually presented a reasonable case to Managers. I'd be more inclined to believe that concerns were dismissed if it was 1 Nurse but Doctors, including Senior Drs, no, not buying it.

 

[Lucymyers]

Re: Dr Jayaram. It hasn't said what channels he went through to raise his suspicions though and he is still only giving evidence on baby A and B at the moment which are the first suspected cases. We have no idea how many times he had raised concerns at that stage or since then as it hasnt been reported on. It's a huge jump to blame him when we have no idea at this stage what he did or didn't do. Hopefully that will be revealed as we go further into the evidence during the trial.

You also need evidence and in fairness, if it took the police a few years and 3 arrests to get this past CPS threshold then I would say they've really had to fight to find the evidence to back up the allegations. Therefore, how much power did he really have to take it further if senior managers shot it down?

As a side note, I wonder why a nurse witness wouldn't be named for legal reasons? I get someone being a minor, or the anonymity for fsmily and the babies involved, but its quite unusual for an adult witness to not be named

She still works there?

 

[avabella]

I do wonder if there's any mileage in the adult nurse not being named because she potentially also has a case to answer and it would jeopardise a fair trial for her at some later date.

 

[Emmelina Ball]

Looks like he’s not the only one to be angry at then. But very, very damning for Lucy that multiple colleagues had suspicions about her. Especially if we don’t see her raise any concerns herself. And very damning that the hospital bosses ignored the concerns people were raising.

Yes it is very concerning indeed. So many people have failed those babies from what I can see. We don’t know that she didn’t raise any concerns I don’t think that’s ever been mentioned in the trial? Or has it?
I’m not really shocked that the hospital bosses ignored concerns that’s the culture of the NHS. I’d like to hope this case will turn that around but I very much doubt it.

 

[Deeznutslol]

I do wonder if there's any mileage in the adult nurse not being named because she potentially also has a case to answer and it would jeopardise a fair trial for her at some later date.

Very interesting point, does anyone with legal knowledge know if this is a thing?

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I do wonder if there's any mileage in the adult nurse not being named because she potentially also has a case to answer and it would jeopardise a fair trial for her at some later date.

Now that's something that hadn't crossed my mind! I was thinking more along the lines of she still works there?

 

[Emmelina Ball]

To me it sounds as though he just raised the point that Lucy was always there rather than actually anything more concrete. According to his testimony it was he and some senior colleagues that raised concerns. Is it really likely that that would be dismissed if they actually presented a reasonable case to Managers. I'd be more inclined to believe that concerns were dismissed if it was 1 Nurse but Doctors, including Senior Drs, no, not buying it.

Well if the response they got was “you shouldn’t be saying such things” it makes me wonder did they speculate she was involved in harming them, or incompetent at her job. It would be interesting to hear more from him about what exactly was raised as it’s left very open unless they did and they aren’t reporting it. I wonder if we’ll hear from the other senior colleagues he mentioned raised concerns with him.

 

[Windowtothewall]

To me it sounds as though he just raised the point that Lucy was always there rather than actually anything more concrete. According to his testimony it was he and some senior colleagues that raised concerns. Is it really likely that that would be dismissed if they actually presented a reasonable case to Managers. I'd be more inclined to believe that concerns were dismissed if it was 1 Nurse but Doctors, including Senior Drs, no, not buying it.

But how would he get anything more concrete other than following her around (which she'd probably class as harassment and would mean his other patients were neglected)...... And you can't accuse someone of wrong doing with no evidence or she'd be able to file a grievance against HIM.

With something like this, the reason it was the perfect crime is she did it during the course of her job, using methods not detectable unless you know what you're looking for. And then you need to be able to prove it.

Let's not forget senior doctors did ask for CCTV to be installed (the RHCP report said so). That was before June 2016 but the nurses refused as they thought it showed a lack of trust from management.....And you can't force it on them without evidence of wrongdoing, as unions etc.
I wonder if LL was involved in the nurse's decision to refuse CCTV too.

 

[Tofino]

This is why the scapegoat thing makes no sense. It looks far worse for the NHS that they ignored concerns over a nurse potentially hurting/murdering babies than just admitting understaffing and generally lower standards of care.

Oh yes totally agree. I’ve never been onboard with the scapegoat theory. If anything this latest witness just confirms to me the attitude of the hospital
bosses was to just sweep everything under the carpet and ignore their employees concerns. They are fully responsible either way.

 

[MmmB777]

Sweet Jesus ‍

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

I wonder if Lucy raised concerns to colleagues, was everyone raising concerns on what they are seeing and the increasing number of deaths but her?

 

[EllsBellsWells]

The report sounds very interesting and relevant. Can someone add it to the wiki please? Or if anyone can post the link here I’ll add it.

 

[Emmelina Ball]

The report sounds very interesting and relevant. Can someone add it to the wiki please? Or if anyone can post the link here I’ll add it.

Is it the rcpch review? This is the link for it here

https://pdf4pro.com/cdn/www-coch-nhs-uk-7537c.pdf