Lucy Letby Case #68

[Tofino]

I put money on it that Letby's mum has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Everything @nosycowmoo has described from court screams this, but I thought it from the moment I heard she wailed when her daughter was sentenced.

Spoiler: Narc Parents

If you have a Narc parent specifically a mother you will recognise that wail and shreaking... I swear I could hear it myself.... they cannot cry normally... it's always a show and it is always just never quite right as it's an imitation of emotion.

By extension I firmly believe Letby is one herself, her behaviour has always not just been psychopathic to me. It doesn't happen to all children with a parent like that but if Letby was born not wired right to begin with and then had that as a parent.... well then you have the perfect environment for a Narc to be created and as it turns out, a serial killer. A perfect storm...

Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers: What You Need to Know

Narcissistic mothers have a profoundly damaging effect on their daughters, inflicting serious psychological trauma on them as they grow up.

www.carlacorelli.com

.

Yes this crossed my mind too as I’m also a daughter of a narcissistic mother so can see some signs of that in Susan Letby. I actually thought this very early on in those messages we heard from Lucy about her parents being suffocating etc and why it also frustrated me when people said Lucy had an uneventful and happy childhood with loving parents. Childhood emotional neglect such as having narcissistic parents is so incredibly damaging but very little is understood compared to physical abuse (and SA). I think most people are actually unaware about CEN but there are some experts that think we are on an epidemic scale of it.

this is wild speculation as we really don’t know but if that’s the case then her dad could be an enabler of Susan and also a victim of emotional abuse and controlling behaviour. I see that in my own dad, who I can feel very sad for but also angry at too.

 

[LittleMy]

Thanks so much for your insight @nosycowmoo it must’ve been surreal the level of attention drawn to the trial/court after the verdicts had all been given. We felt it here too but can’t imagine how hard it must’ve been knowing before anyone else and not being able to say. Well done for not caving in, pity we can’t say the same about some other people eh?

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Yes this crossed my mind too as I’m also a daughter of a narcissistic mother so can see some signs of that in Susan Letby. I actually thought this very early on in those messages we heard from Lucy about her parents being suffocating etc and why it also frustrated me when people said Lucy had an uneventful and happy childhood with loving parents. Childhood emotional neglect such as having narcissistic parents is so incredibly damaging but very little is understood compared to physical abuse (and SA). I think most people are actually unaware about CEN but there are some experts that think we are on an epidemic scale of it.

this is wild speculation as we really don’t know but if that’s the case then her dad could be an enabler of Susan and also a victim of emotional abuse and controlling behaviour. I see that in my own dad, who I can feel very sad for but also angry at too.

I'm so sorry you had to grow up with that Tofino 🩷 I have been no contact for nearly 5 years now, best decision I ever made.

I suspected when I read the texts as well about the suffocation but hearing about the wail in court gave me serious flashbacks and I suppose in my head it confirmed it for me. I know we don't know for sure, but Narcs seldom get a diagnosis and I think with our real life experience we are probably pretty spot on!

I really do think it was just a perfect storm, so many children experience this kind of abuse and if anything they go on the be the most soft/kind hearted people as a result but there is always that anomaly and a person predisposed to cruelty will just have that cruel nature amplified by this treatment.

Sadly I think you are so right about the experts who think we are about to experience and epidemic of CEN abuse. Just look at all these "influencers" who use their children as content and mini sales reps!?

 

[Tofino]

I'm so sorry you had to grow up with that Tofino 🩷 I have been no contact for nearly 5 years now, best decision I ever made.

I suspected when I read the texts as well about the suffocation but hearing about the wail in court gave me serious flashbacks and I suppose in my head it confirmed it for me. I know we don't know for sure, but Narcs seldom get a diagnosis and I think with our real life experience we are probably pretty spot on!

I really do think it was just a perfect storm, so many children experience this kind of abuse and if anything they go on the be the most soft/kind hearted people as a result but there is always that anomaly and a person predisposed to cruelty will just have that cruel nature amplified by this treatment.

Sadly I think you are so right about the experts who think we are about to experience and epidemic of CEN abuse. Just look at all these "influencers" who use their children as content and mini sales reps!?

God yes it’s going to get so much worse for the influencer kids but also I think the current generation of parenting style is a lot more attachment focussed and things like leaving baby to cry it out are frowned upon now so hoping it will be much better for some kids too.

I’m sorry you also had to go through it! I do consider NC but I don’t think I can cope with the fallout of that esp as I don’t have any other support and I don’t really want to go NC with my dad.

I thought there used to be a thread on here that was similar to the stately homes thread on MN but I could not find it the other day when I tried to look for it. Wondering if anyone knows?

and yes I don’t think having a narcissistic mother = killer but people can experience the exact same trauma but react differently and I think there was a perfect storm.

I do wonder though if people with emotionally healthy, secure, happy childhoods ever become killers?

 

[sazzt]

I wouldn't give it a second thought. They arent going to get very far with that baseless science.

Also this is hardly the data that would set her free. Its not about how many deaths there were, its about the cause for those deaths. "If" they had increased after because of below par care or a virus for example, no one wouldve been at fault.

So unless they manage to somehow obtain medical records proving that all of Letbys babies were accidental deaths (impossible since it was proven otherwise), I cant see any of their nonesense making the slightest of difference.

You’re right, they can’t prove any of it. Thank you

 

[nosycowmoo]

Thanks so much for your insight @nosycowmoo it must’ve been surreal the level of attention drawn to the trial/court after the verdicts had all been given. We felt it here too but can’t imagine how hard it must’ve been knowing before anyone else and not being able to say. Well done for not caving in, pity we can’t say the same about some other people eh?

imagine going from maybe one camera man and van on an odd day, to 6 vans during deliberations to this 5 mins after verdict
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imagine going from maybe one camera man and van on an odd day, to 6 vans during deliberations to this 5 mins after verdict

 

[sazzt]

yes I think they are absolutely misrepresenting the data. It would actually be laughable if it wasn’t so heartbreaking. They are showing their stupidity again.

I haven’t looked deep enough into this but if it’s based on where the baby lives and not the hospital born at then I presume that the ONS stats for neonatal deaths would also include any neonatals that died at home or another hospital. For example Leighton Hospital in Crewe (not Cheshire west) is often the main hospital for people in Northwich (Cheshire west) to give birth at.

They just have no idea what the circumstances were in any of them. Just because COCH is the only hospital in Cheshire West with a neonatal unit doesn’t mean they are involved with a baby from Cheshire West who died in the first 28 days. They may have never even met those babies but being accused of being responsible for the deaths! Idiots.

I was thinking the same thing, thanks for explaining. These idiots are so annoying!

 

[nosycowmoo]

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imagine going from maybe one camera man and van on an odd day, to 6 vans during deliberations to this 5 mins after verdict
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View attachment 2422647

 

[Realitybites]

yes I think they are absolutely misrepresenting the data. It would actually be laughable if it wasn’t so heartbreaking. They are showing their stupidity again.

I haven’t looked deep enough into this but if it’s based on where the baby lives and not the hospital born at then I presume that the ONS stats for neonatal deaths would also include any neonatals that died at home or another hospital. For example Leighton Hospital in Crewe (not Cheshire west) is often the main hospital for people in Northwich (Cheshire west) to give birth at.

They just have no idea what the circumstances were in any of them. Just because COCH is the only hospital in Cheshire West with a neonatal unit doesn’t mean they are involved with a baby from Cheshire West who died in the first 28 days. They may have never even met those babies but being accused of being responsible for the deaths! Idiots.

I was going to say very similar- lots of people in areas of CW&C use Arrowe or even as far as Liverpool Women’s I’ve known people to chose. They’re being very dangerous with their biased interpretation of figures without understanding the basis of where they are sourced from.

 

[Motherofpugs]

It’s so lovely to hear from you @nosycowmoo - it feels surreal that it’s all over (for now) after it being a part of our lives every day for such a long time. I can’t imagine how you must feel having followed it in person! Do you think you will continue following the case in court if more charges are taken to trial?

I still can’t help but feel that a different group of 12 jurors would have found her guilty on all charges. I still feel disappointed tbh that they didn’t take on board the judges direction that if they found her guilty of some charges, they could apply that to other charges to support the likeliness of deliberate harm by the defendant.

Also, I firmly believe that there is zero chance that LL had an idyllic perfect childhood. She has been damaged in some way by her upbringing even if that’s not your typical physical or sexual abuse. Children raised by emotionally healthy parents with love and boundaries do not murder multiple babies that’s for sure.

 

[Onthehop]

Thanks so much for your first hand account. So interesting to hear how narky she was in court. I imagine that is not going to help her at all in prison. Good!

 

[EffingDust]

Thanks @nosycowmoo for taking the time to share all of your experiences, so interesting to read

 

[oldjamfan]

Court in general has been the weirdest, heartbreaking, yet interesting time.

There were so many odd things that happened mainly to do with LL’s mum, she had a massive argument with Jan one day shouting at her in the corridor shouting ‘you just stick up for them again then’ meaning the prosecution she used to be really nice to one of the court regulars, say hi etc to him, then got him into a corner and asked if he was LL’s friend, when he said no a law student she never spoke to him again except to moan at him once. She had a go at most people in court 8 at one point or another. Don’t get me wrong it must’ve been horrific for them but it did seem odd. She took photos of the press too and collared them if she wasn’t happy with what they’d written about her. Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and I can see where LL gets her narky side from im afraid.

In general, the police the crown prosecution etc have all been incredible, you couldn’t ask for a better team, I’m actually missing court days already. And made friends - how bizarre!

The babies families I have nothing but the hugest respect, the dignity, and strength they’ve shown is incredible. All I can say is you don’t know how strong you can be till strong is all you can be, they all seemed to lean on each other too which was lovely. It’s all for them

The verdicts jeez
I arrived about an hour after the first ones. I walked in and it just felt ‘off’ I had to be warned that anything I may hear cannot be repeated and that I’d be in contempt of court and possibly face a 2 year sentence hence why I came off here altogether. It was the strangest feeling. Happy for the right result for the insulin babies. But I was more in shock that after all that time they’d only reached 2 verdicts. We all thought it was going to be a longgggg wait. That’s why he offered them a majority verdict I think. At the same time we all thought that they’d done the hard part, they’d said someone was harming babies. They said it was her so with cross inference they should’ve followed. But nothing for 3 more days. Jammy Radnor blabbed on fb! I’ve never reported something as quick in my life, also heads up they have a social media team working 24/7 monitoring every single comment on here and fb and reddit etc etc

So Friday… I got the train with @O'lee but I needed my lunch so grabbed a sandwich and walked into court for 1pm start then he said he was going to ask for anymore verdicts my jaw must’ve been on the floor I wasn’t expecting it at all. I could barely breathe. The official said in an almost town crier voice ‘it’s been x hours and x minutes’ then asks them in order on count 1 have you reached a verdict then the Forman said yes or no, on the ones he said yes they then say on the count of the murder of Mickey Mouse do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty and they said guilty and honestly I was so tense, I realised after I was holding my hands so hard over my face I had left marks, it was relief scared, happy sad and everything inbetween there was 6 verdicts that day and they became a blur. 4 were murder 2 were attempted. After a couple of the verdicts there was this wailing crying guttural sobbing, it could be heard above everything else, I couldn’t tell who it was it was horrific, I was filling up in shock it was the most surreal horrific moment. LL left, so I knew the noise wasn’t her, the babies families left and then I realised it was LL’s mum. I left the courtroom as her mum left so I ran back in. It was awful we all split up needed some time for it to sink in and have a little moment. Apparently one of the babies parents put their fingers in their ears and walked out.
Afterwards I felt awful for them, that was their moment and instead of being about them it was all about LL’s mum. I get that she’s upset and horrified but she still has her daughter! Those poor babies families don’t!!! And they should’ve had their moment their justice…
It was horrific I don’t even have the words for how it felt like even though I went on the fence and then thought she was guilty it’s the finalness the fact like she really is a serial killer. I’ve sat and looked at this cold narky woman and she’s actually killed these babies. LL saw the first 2 lots of verdicts but then she didn’t come to any of the end of day court sessions only mornings. Judge asked BM about it he said he would find out. Then that was it the low life scum never ever came back out not even in the mornings! She hid in her cell with her comfort blankets and wouldn’t come up. The last power she had and she used it! She’s sick!
The week after there was more verdicts, I missed those first ones. On the Thursday they were asked again and gave 2 more verdicts and were asked if they thought they would be able to reach verdicts on the others and they thought ‘maybe’
Friday came and the video of her being arrested was leaked and it seemed suddenly tense and we were called in again, they were asked if they had anymore verdicts, they didn’t he asked them if given more time they could reach Verdicts and they said no, that was it… one heartbroken family ran out, that was the hardest part. All along I thought the Verdict would be a good job well done moment, but without answers for some it wasn’t… I wish they’d all got an ending, some closure, it was awful. I actually don’t understand with cross inference how they didn’t find all guilty’s if I’m honest and it felt cruel to the NG or no verdict parents. But that’s the law that’s how it works and I really do think they’ve done a thorough job.

That was it he let the jury go and thanked them and it ended. The press knew it was coming I had to get out I needed air it was horrifically sad the press were all filming already we waited around to hear what they had to say in the press conference and then we went to a cafe and talked for the first time in the open, it was hard not being able to offload even to family before then. We all pretty much felt the same glad for the right results in the guiltys but we couldn’t shake the sadness for the other families…
I went on holiday before sentencing, but cried my eyes out listening to the pod and watching the sentencing.

Even 2 weeks on I can’t get my head around it all, not sure I ever will. She seems so ‘normal’ from a distance.

I have no doubts there’ll be a part 2… it blows my mind that she actually exists, like she actually did it, like I knew she had from seeing and hearing her but actually seeing in person the true evil that she is is incomprehensible.
Taking her freedom isn’t enough. Those poor defenceless babies

Thank you so much for this, and all your other updates over the course of proceedings.
Evil takes many forms doesn’t it? Hope your holiday helped you recover from what must have been at times a traumatic experience.

 

[sebanna]

Science on Trial posted saying that deaths continued to rise after Lucifer was taken off the unit. They used a graph that most of us have seen before, the one that has the area figures on it where COCH figures are in grey & shows that deaths decreased. They are stating that COCH has the only maternity & neonatal departments in the area, so it proves that deaths increased instead of decreased. A few people called them out over it & argued that they were misrepresenting the data. I think they are too. I’ll share the screenshots so you can see what you think.

I thought Cheshire West also included Warrington hospital which has a maternity and NICU.

 

[wine o clock]

If you press on my name all my comments are there. She was quite nicely spoken (her voice and accent) like the police station video, but sometimes she would be narky / sarcy and snap answers back sometimes even before they’d finished answering. She blinked like crazy, literally like every second. Pauses before she answered as little words as possible. She argued ageeed facts. Forgot what she said 20 seconds ago but can remember a doctor didn’t wash her hands after a cigarette. She was cold, no sad emotions just an annoyed one. She just didn’t act how I’d expect someone fighting for their life to behave

Exactly!!! It was like watching somert that wasn’t quite human … it looked human … but the timings was all off … like a computer programme with a glitch … and I thought she appeared very cocky!!! I’ve said it time and time again she come across like she thought she was better than every1 else in that court … was mind blowing …

All these idiots wi their number crunching haven’t even seen her in flesh … an I have no doubt she won’t be sat crying regretting a single thing!!!! Doesn’t feel a tad sorry for those parents!!! She be scribbling tit and trying to out do every1 in that prison !!! It is a monster!!! And it is rightfully locked up for life!!!! Xx

 

[sebanna]

Looking at the graph if Cheshire West and COCH were the same wouldn't the data be the same. The yellow bar shows less deaths, than the grey, in 2015 and 2016, because its deaths per 1000 babies, and more babies are included which brings the death rate down.

 

[wine o clock]

Looking at the graph if Cheshire West and COCH were the same wouldn't the data be the same. The yellow bar shows less deaths, than the grey, in 2015 and 2016, because its deaths per 1000 babies, and more babies are included which brings the death rate down.

I can no longer entertain the cod’s wallop!!!! xx last thing I read was … she will appeal and it will go down to 30 years as it’s too harsh to give a young woman a WLO … xx that was it… I was done!!!! Xx

 

[stardust21]

Re abuse: there are a hell of a lot of children who get abused but are in middle class families and so fall through the net. Especially verbally. But even other types of abuse, these children are often less likely to be believed and outside care givers (teachers etc) are less likely to be looking out for it in these children due to confirmation bias.

I am not talking about Letby here, because there is nothing that can excuse what she did.

However, in general as a society we need to stop assuming because someone comes from a middle class family with parents still together that they had this perfect, ideal childhood.

 

[AllieBee]

Re abuse: there are a hell of a lot of children who get abused but are in middle class families and so fall through the net. Especially verbally. But even other types of abuse, these children are often less likely to be believed and outside care givers (teachers etc) are less likely to be looking out for it in these children due to confirmation bias.

I am not talking about Letby here, because there is nothing that can excuse what she did.

However, in general as a society we need to stop assuming because someone comes from a middle class family with parents still together that they had this perfect, ideal childhood.

Exactly! So much goes on but so much better hidden because on the face of it, these are 'respectable' families

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Re abuse: there are a hell of a lot of children who get abused but are in middle class families and so fall through the net. Especially verbally. But even other types of abuse, these children are often less likely to be believed and outside care givers (teachers etc) are less likely to be looking out for it in these children due to confirmation bias.

I am not talking about Letby here, because there is nothing that can excuse what she did.

However, in general as a society we need to stop assuming because someone comes from a middle class family with parents still together that they had this perfect, ideal childhood.

Especially when the abuse is coming from a Narc. They are obsessed with outside image and portraying a certain narrative to everyone outside the household.