Lucy Letby Case #6

[jackolantern]

I sorta think maybe the thread should be locked.
It's feels quite disrespectful to the babies and families at times. This is a live murder trial of 7 precious babies but I feel some people view it as entertainment.

Bit much, I don't think anyone views it as entertainment

 

[jackolantern]

It's awful either way lets be honest, if the babies died because of gross incompetence that is horrific in itself, but if they died from murder? Even worse. I can't convince myself it's the former though, there's just too any instances however shit the NHS can be.

 

[jackolantern]

This scapegoat thing is honestly ridiculous. This isn't a small accusation, it would be throwing a young woman under the bus for mass murder of babies, like, come on?! The NHS has it flaws but how sadistic do you think they are? It blows my mind people think the extent of what it would take and how many people would need to be involved is more likely than one, evil woman. They do exist you know.

Logically, either way the NHS looks bad here, they've either had gross negligence that has resulted in the accidental death of many babies or they've been SO grossly negligent that they've enabled a nurse to murder not one, but many babies. Which looks worse? Clearly the latter. Why the fuck would they pick pushing that narrative?

I stand by if this were a man, you'd struggle to find enough people to count on just one hand who would protest his innocence.

 

[Lexi]

Whoever wrote the ‘Wiki’ well done! Just spent ages reading all of it and it’s an excellent account of the case so far. I realise now that I hardly knew anything about this case. Only what I’ve read in the press.

Every day I’ve being going from guilty to not guilty but after reading all that I’m convinced she is guilty. (I will probably change my mind over and over again in the coming months after hearing more evidence). I have so so many questions! Here’s a few I will put out their:

* Who is the doctor she keeps text messaging and FB messaging (In work and after work)? Will he be called to give evidence? Was he suspicious?

* 100mls of air aspirated from a neonatal NG tube? How is that possible?

* The baby on TPN? Did he die the same day as the baby who was on the insulin infusion that morning? I wonder if she took the insulin syringe from that child instead of discarding it? Then tampered with the TPN bag.

*Where and what the hell was management doing while this was all going on? How about the whole team? Nurse love to gossip-so surly this was being talked about non stop on the unit. Even if they didn’t think of her as a murderer they would be thinking she is the most incompetent nurse ever!

*She doesn’t have a good memory when it comes to her patients who have died does she? Despite keeping a diary and knowing their names to enable her to search for their parents on FB ( one child she searched their name once a month for 6 months!) They were her patients and she would have had to provide bereavement care for them and their families. She would have helped wash and dress them, took hand and foot casts, cut a lock of hair, families photos and take the poor babies to the mortuary with their families. You do not forget those experiences. Ever!! They stay with you for such a longtime.

My heart goes out to all the families involved with this case. I can’t even imagine what they are going through.

 

[jackolantern]

I hear you but at the sane time there must be flimsy evidence as why would anyone guilty want this to go to trial ? You'd plead guilty and take a sentence. She's either nuts and is a massive risk taker hoping she would be found innocent or she is innocent, but I don't believe that this is huge misfailing of the NHS either... and why is it lasting 6 months? That is a HUGE amount of trial time that's not that common which again makes me believe it's not that straightforward. I don't know at this point what to believe

That's a bit of a generalisation. A fuck ton of people plead innocent who are guilty, that in itself means nothing IMO. You could equally say you wouldn't take something to trial over 6 months if your evidence was 'flimsy'. Plus your sentence about she's either nuts or innocent - well yeah, she's either innocent or a baby murderer which in itself is nuts.

 

[Emmelina Ball]

There must be previous incidents in my opinion but they can only focus on a limited time frame. I would assume this is why they were advertising for the detective to join the operation as other offences are likely.

Originally there were far more babies involved in the charges - I wonder is baby a & b the first they felt they had enough evidence on so they become the first charges but perhaps weren’t the first victims (if she did murder them).

 

[Treesy19]

Gosh there’s no doubt about the June job advert being Lucy related is it:

“This investigation is one of significant national prominence” big understatement there

“You will be leading and Deputising as appropriate on a sensitive and challenging investigation across the force area and beyond investigating the murder and attempted murder of infants.”

“…dedicated to the once in a career investigation”

“…recruited directly into the investigation for an initial 3 year period” initial? Christ how much more

“…Investigatory base at Chester, however, there will be a requirement to work/share duty time across Cheshire and Manchester due to a lengthy trial 2022/23 in Manchester.”

Detective Chief Inspector - Op Hummingbird - Cheshire Police

ID: 697. Title: Detective Chief Inspector - Op Hummingbird. Location: Chester. Closing Date: 12/06/2022, 23:55. Salary: £58,332 - £60,732

cheshirepolice.tal.net

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

I haven’t caught up with todays thread yet. So don’t know if we are still on the subject of moving to days and the grievance procedure. However, I fell asleep last night going over it all in my brain and trying to come up with something logical. Any way here are my thoughts….

I think it could be a possibility that letby heard whispers about what people were suggesting of her. At this point while staff were perhaps concerned, they hadn’t actually taken any action officially to voice their suspicions, equally, I doubt early on anyone thought it was deliberate, just rumours flying around and Lucy got wind of them. I think it’s possible, Lucy then thought f*ck I need to do something about this.

She went to her seniors with a grievance complaint FIRST! not repeating anything like ‘staff think babies are dying because of me’ , but that staff are bullying her, victimising her, to essentially take back control of the situation and change the narrative in her favour. So should anyone approach management with such crazy allegations she had already planted some seeds of doubt that people had it in for her.

From here management probably chatted with Letby, ensured her they would look into the bullying, suggested she moved to days so to move her away from the night staff, in a way of supporting her ( and are now only saying it’s because of their suspicions because for some wild reason they think that looks better on them ) .

They were probably approached around this time also with the night staff concerns, but as she had already got in there with a bullying complaint they thought that was more likely of two, and even supported her complaint. I mean it really is hard to comprehend anyone let a alone a nurse would intentionally harm a baby. She now thinks she has the upper hand, laid low for a little while (I think there was a three month break after baby K), then got cocky again. I don’t think is out of the realms of possibility. Of course the above scenario would only work if she were guilty. Because another thing that doesn’t make sense is why Lucy then carried on harming babies during the day if she thought they were onto her? Surely she would have been suspicious of this sudden change to day shifts and would just stop. She isn’t a stupid person, she is a nurse. If she is guilty she could have stopped but she didn’t, and surely she wouldn’t carry on knowing they were on to her. The only logical explanation I can come to is that they moved her to days to get away from the victimisation (or that’s what they told her, like the two investigations were running a long side one another), I mean they would have to give her explanation wouldn't they?

Anyway just a thought hope I make sense

 

[stardust1]

Killed what on purpose though? She could be talking about her plants for all we know from that note.

Oh aye cause she would write about the police on her notes because she wilted some Lillies 🥱 cba

 

[jackolantern]

It’s a bit beggars belief to think any organisation would rather be seen to have actively done nothing to stop a nurse murdering/attempting to murder 22 babies than just admit they failed due to staffing etc. Yes the babies died either way but one is clearly much worse for your reputation than the other.

 

[avabella]

Does anyone else think it’s strange that one of the doctors thought ‘Where’s Lucy?’ when he was concerned that she was alone with a baby? It just sounds strange to me. To get to that point of worrying about staff being alone serious concerns should have been raised and interventions should have been in place.

This is what I really cannot get my head around. For a higher ranking senior Dr to go on record saying he rushed in when he realised she was on her own with the baby, and make out like he 'caught her in the act' just feels like such a reach to me? It's definitely something that needs explored more.

 

[Skellig]

Bringing handover sheets home is not normal. I've worked in loads of wards now in ED as a reg and I've never seen it happen. Of course it might happen but very rarely if it did. I'm with the HSE not the NHS. Whatever type of sheet it was - it was a trophy. Only because of the circumstances! Wouldn't acuse someone of it if the murders hadn't of happened.

It's a tough and exhausting job. Of course we will all make mistakes but most of the time they're simple ones such as bringing a sheet home in error. What she is accused of doing however..

As a physician right now I think she's guilty. Who knows she might not be but the evidence all points to her. Some of the stories are horrific and the fact that she attempted to kill one baby 4 times and succeeded on the fourth..

 

[jackolantern]

There is no way I could be on that jury, I can’t even handle reading the accounts nevermind hearing them. Fucking awful for everyone involved. Theres just no words.

 

[Windowtothewall]

For me I have questions about quite a few things. I can be quite dispassionate so someone kick me if needed...

I couldn't find her guilty on current evidence. I'm not in the innocent camp either. I need clarification.

I think the scapegoat theory is being misrepresented.. Here's a possible scenario.... NICU is all shades of fucked up. There's an awful lot of concern at office/director leveland little Miss Perfect has stuck a grievance in... And everything isn't rosy for them. In fact it's so bumpy and they're so slow to act they're relieved individually when another solution, other than their general incompetence and arrogance being exposed, surfaces. They might not have expressed it, but they're all a bit relieved the pressure is off them.

It's just a theory. I think the scapegoat isn't like a Conspiracy theory with whispering in corners and collaboration but more insidious.

NOT THAT I'M SUPPORTING THIS THEORY

The hospital brought in the police tbf. They could have brushed it under the carpet with the RCPCH report - which gave some vague recommendations but didn't suggest anything criminal was happening. They could have showed that report to the patients, public, victim's parents and everyone would have felt like they were taking action. Now, they are being investigated for 6 years and counting by the police - so much awful publicity, in the spotlight where every death and action will be scrutinised, not to mention the police too could have found any of them negligent or criminal. Once the police are involved you can't control where the investigation will lead.

Also LL didn't make any grievances or complaints before she was suspected - at least the prosecution and defence did not mention it. Her grievance happened after the police investigation was initiated, when she was already a suspect and put on admin duties.

I can't see any conceivable way the police, civilian investigators, multiple sets of medical experts from around the country, victims' families, her colleagues, the hospital, RSPCH are all conspiring against her. This investigation has cost multi million ££ - all this to protect an already failing hospital (that everyone was aware of with the RSPCH report) seems really unlikely.

 

[abelleza]

The main thing I find odd about this is that the doctor had to go off to find a camera and by the time they were back it was gone. Most drs I've seen have their phones in their pockets, same with nurses, the parents were also there too so I don't know why it wasn't said can you take a photo of it to another member of staff.

And like you say if it's that unusual then LL should've raised it straight away no?

You absolutely cannot take pictures of patients on your phone, and it’s highly inappropriate to ask the babies parents to when they’re already worried sick. He also probably wasn’t expecting the rash to just disappear.

 

[Tofino]

The Chester Standard. I think they do the live reporting too but this was more of an article summing it all up.

Revealed: The 'I AM EVIL' handwritten note by Lucy Letby found at her Chester home

THIS is the note written by alleged killer nurse Lucy Letby, found at her Chester home by police at the time of her July 2018 arrest.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

If Mark Dowling is going to be adding extra titbits in his articles that are not in his live reporting then he’s given me more work to do for the wiki

Killed what on purpose though? She could be talking about her plants for all we know from that note.

oh give over! Even the defence have said she wrote it in anguish about the allegations. Not her plants!

 

[aalmaalm]

I feel like there will be people (just generally speaking, not accusing anyone here) who will say ‘well the babies were really poorly anyway’ as if that means that’s the only explanation for the babies dying/collapsing. Even the defence suggested it on some of the children. And I think this is really unfair to the babies and the families when we are going to hear how unexpected and unusual it was and likely hear from multiple medical experts why this is. The sickest babies could still have been murdered. But they deserve to have other possible causes considered and not just ‘written off’ as being sick and premature.

Exactly this! It’s insulting just to put it down to their prematurity! Feels like the easy way out to me.

 

[friedeggontoast]

The idea that the NHS, police and other organisations have banded together to frame an innocent nurse to cover up failings on a ward is ridiculous. This is real life not Line of Duty.

 

[jackolantern]

I don’t think anyone (and I speak for myself here) is saying it’s a scapegoat situation - what I genuinely don’t understand is how the ‘attempted’ murders have come to that conclusion, and I’m sure there may be more medical evidence to come. I am struggling to understand how retrospectively it can be so certain that the collapses etc weren’t from a genuine medical symptom when it wasn’t deemed at the time?

Because there is clearly a collection of medical evidence to show what happened to the babies wasn't of natural causes after all? And also retrospectively it was inline with the same 'pattern' that occurred in the murders i.e. air embolism etc. Obviously I'm not the prosecution/doctors/police so I can't attest to their exact logic, but so far it seems pretty clear that's where they are heading. They don't just trial someone for this amount of attempted murders on a whim.

Some things only become apparent with hindsight once it's happened more times than could be considered a 'normal' statistic. Obviously there are more obvious ways to murder someone that cannot be anything but, but with stuff like this (except blatant stuff like the insulin) it's not as easy to point the finger so it's only when it happens again and again in quick succession, with the same person every single time (and also twins!) that you start going, you know what, this isn't chance.

 

[Lackofimagination]

Nah I had a patient this morning called Lucy and wrote Letby instead of her surname there's a new mistake off to bed now

Imagine if you saw your nurse do that you’d shit your pants!! I saw a lady on TikTok today who’s got a section booked and the baby will be going into nicu because the lady has had to take morphine throughout pregnancy so baby will be monitored/treated for NAS and she was so upset with the current news of LL she was terrified for her baby to go into nicu. Really sad.