Lucy Letby Case #42

[OldBlondie]

I've had a manic week and had to step out of the thread for the first time since the trial started. Just skim read this one to try and get up to speed again.

Is BM skipping over things or is there a genuine chance the jury could be swayed by some doubt? I'm hopeful NJ will have done enough, but you never can tell.

I'm curious to see how the judge is going to sum up and as it's a whole week of summing up (going by them saying jury out on 10th July) then it will hopefully bring back some balance and remind the jury of how strong the prosecution case is.

If you get the chance have a read of all @nosycowmoo posts on this thread, she’s been there in court regularly this week, and has written some really good posts on how she’s found it in person. I have faith in the judge’s summing up and directions, and faith in the jury. BM is just busy giving the performance of his life, but it’s not enough without any other witnesses to back him up, and the absolute mess LL made on the stand of her own evidence. Nosy has told us to keep the faith so I’ve a feeling she knows something crucial that we don’t

 

[Fauxphiehinchcliffe]

I can’t often follow this thread live …so tend to check in at the end of the day/evening but usually I’m very behind so jusr pick random pages to skip through to
Get the jist.

Honestly it is a hilarious way of keeping up with this thread. Picking random pages I never know what I’m getting and it is funny trying to guess the context of whatever random posts I’ve come across - drama with fantasies over the wrong Nick, intense legal debates, discussion about alcohol, chocolate preferences, hair colour or t shirt designs. Not to mention the talk of fuck off meganormous dildos.

A really serious and awful topic ….respectfully debated but the tone is light, fun and supportive. Well done tattlers

 

[nosycowmoo]

Just planning my verdict day T-shirt now this week of shite is out the way…
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Just planning my verdict day T-shirt now this week of shite is out the way…

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Is @nosycowmoo there today?
Really good to read a first hand account. I'm wondering if there will be an extra podcast too? I think I'll find it much easier to pull together all he's said via the pod. Dan's done well but find it harder to follow on twitter.

I was there

 

[DellaC]

Love the new pic Della!

 

[Fruitshop]

I think if I was one of the parents in the courtroom, I would very pointedly walk out when BM started pontificating. It honestly makes me sick what he is saying. And also a bit afraid too, what if the jury are all dumbfuck facebook conspiracy theorist huns?
if I was on the jury, I would keep reminding myself that the doctors on the unit became suspicious, the police were involved and if there wasn’t a good chance of the possibility of foul play, the case would have never got this far. I know innocent people have been accused of crimes they didn’t do, but surely not to this degree. Then, of course, the evidence is damning.

 

[Tofino]

Re child A and not having opportunity to attack. I remember Ben saying the same when I was there in court. But it was clear there was a 10-15 minute window where she could have attacked because she was left alone when Mel went to write up notes and Dr Harkness was seeing to baby B. If Dr H had his back turned, a murderer would easily see that as a thrilling opportunity surely. That’s not far fetched when considering we are talking about intent to kill.

I remember this better because I was there in court. Just wondering if others who went to court have better memory of the evidence from hearing it in court rather than reading online? Hopefully that’s the case and will be a good sign the jury remember the details better than we all do.

I’ve just put the relevant parts behind a spoiler because it’s long

Spoiler

Ben today:

He says Letby helped a nurse with sterilisation. He asks when was she supposed to have done what she was alleged to have done, and next to Dr Harkness and Melanie Taylor.

He says there is "nothing to support" that Letby got a syringe and injected some air.

He says "no-one could access" the lines without opening the incubator first.

_____________________

Lucy’s own evidence:

The 10% dextrose solution is shown from a fluid prescription chart as beginning at 8.05pm.
Letby says Melanie Taylor went over to a computer to start writing up notes.

Letby said she was doing some checks - on cotside equipment, suction points, emergency equipment.

She says Dr Harkness at this point was doing a procedure on twin Child B at this point.

Letby says she observed Child A to be "jittery".
Letby says "jittery" was an abnormal finding for Child A. It was "an involuntary jerking of the limbs".

She says she remembered it was "noticeable".

Child A's monitor sounded and his "colour changed".

Letby says the alarm sounded, but she did not know what it indicated at the time.

She says she noted Child A' "hands and feet were white".

She went over to Child A, who was not breathing, so they went to Neopuff him.
____________________________

Sequence of events:

8.14-8.15pm:Records show a nurse other than Letby is 'using the computer' at 8.14-8.15pm, where she is referring to the family of Child A and B being updated on the condition of Child B.

8.20pm:Lucy Letby's retrospective note recorded: 'At 8.20pm Child A's hands and feet noted to be white. Centrally pale and poor perfusion.'

 

[Caledonianprincess]

[mini c update] mini C has dropped a centile and is only 1lb heavier than he was at 10 days old. I've to hold off on gaviscon as he's got thrush so need to treat that first. Hopefully he starts gaining more weight soon

 

[tennis ball michael]

Love you all. You brilliant, funny, kind, thoughtful people.

I tuned out this week because I literally couldn’t follow BM (too bamboozling) but just finally caught up on the thread and the above is all that has struck me.

So that is all. Big loves and big respect.

 

[nosycowmoo]

how did the judge leave it today? Dan just disappeared after Ben finished telling us his fairytale of a story.

I can’t say, I’m sorryyyy it was all said after the jury left…
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I can’t say, I’m sorryyyy it was all said after the jury left…

I know I’m a kill joy but I want this trial to end properly and don’t want anything causing a mistrial or whatever
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I can’t say, I’m sorryyyy it was all said after the jury left…
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I know I’m a kill joy but I want this trial to end properly and don’t want anything causing a mistrial or whatever

His fairytale was so fascinating I fell asleep and just as I woke he said ‘and she won’t live happily ever after, she’ll be in the jail’ the end…

 

[MmmB777]

It’s nearly laughable isn’t it, him saying about her being busy with her own babies…. the very same LL that has been shown on many many different occasions to forget about her babies and migrate into rooms she shouldn’t have been going into, and interfering with babies she shouldn’t have been near, to the point a more senior nurse has had to reprimand her to leave and go back to said babies. Also has been shown to constantly text complaining about her designated babies, in fact txt for huge amount of time during shift when she’s supposed to be looking after said designated babies. Never mind the fact that every time she migrated to the babies that weren’t her designated ones they either ended up dead or severely harmed. Oh not another coincidence surely. It is obvious that LL using her designated babies as “an alibi” would be hilarious if this wasn’t so sad and serious. Oh did I also forget to mention this is the same LL that also has been proved to falsify paperwork that allegedly showed which babies she was with and when, but we are expected to believe now that her designated babies are suddenly her alibi, and therefore she couldn’t have harmed M. And the fact she had the handover notes and the paper towel with M on at home, and wait let me just think where at home, is yes that’s right they were in fact under her bed, is yet another coincidence for super dedicated to her own designated babies Nurse Lucy, who is also the world’s unluckiest! Okay then. Alrighty then Bowel Movement I now agree she couldn’t possibly have harmed M at that time

Good point! On this day, she’s repeatedly involved with baby L and baby M despite being designated two babies to look after and yet she is texting all through the shift isn’t she. Such a dedicated and hard working nurse! It’s a wonder Letby’s designated babies aren’t the ones to suffer cardiac arrest seeing as that’s apparently a symptom of not being monitored according to BM.

 

[gigilouxx]

Crying cos that dildo is gonna be unshagged for the next 50 years

 

[pissedandsad]

@tay65 - not sure what happened to the quote but it missed your name off.



This is what's bothering me, BM is obviously a clever man but from what I've read he's not using evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to rebut the prosecution's case. He's not used expert witnesses and he seems to be using confusion and almost misdirection to secure a NG verdict.

'gift of the gab' is a phrase that's been often used in my family and fits BM's summing up well imo.

“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.” W. C. Fields

 

[Windowtothewall]

I am going to disagree here as I don't believe that's true. He can seek advice (and IMO from reading what he is saying in closing, I think he has done) he does not have to use them as expert witnesses in oral or written evidence.

If the police/CPS however, has evidence that they have uncovered during the course of the investigation then they do have to disclose that to the defence as their job (the police) is to investigate not prove guilt. A schedule of disclosure would be given and any documents/reports/photos etc that the prosecution don't wish to use, can be used by the defence.

This is correct. Also the expert witnesses like Dr Evans and Dr Bohin were hired by the police and therefore independent of prosecution or defence - they have a duty to the court. So even though we call them prosecution witnesses, they're really witnesses of the court. They need to pass the threshold of impartiality and credibility to be allowed as expert witnesses. If BM had decided to bring on a medical expert, then they would have been defence witnesses however.

Even though BM can consult experts and still not present their evidence at trial or bring them to the stand, it still needs to be legally admissable by the judge and of course, the prosecution can challenge it too. So can't be completely made up BS. In a case like this, where every medical expert is in agreement on cause of death, I do believe no expert was willing to commit to an opinion that would stand up in court on BM's behalf. If he has gone to the trouble of bringing a plumber on the stand when he didn't have to, it's very hard to believe the lack of medical experts was a choice.

They were happy to share some opinions and ideas maybe, but not willing to put their name to it - and to me that says a lot. Given there's so many professional experts you can hire. Should have been easy to find someone. And that will stick with juries because they're not idiots - they can see that nothing BM is presenting has a medical experts' stamp of approval in the actual trial.

Some more info here https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/expert-evidence

 

[Morning_Star]

Got to admit BM is making me consider the possibility of maybe, just maybe she's innocent.

Then I realise that really doesn't make any sense.
She can't be can she?

I had a mini wobble when BM put her on the stand & started asking her questions. Didn’t last more than 48 hours before I realised - thanks to posters here - that he was cherry-picking the bits that are not so incriminating & leaving out the crucial incriminating bits, and on the basis of that then going on to weave together a narrative of an innocent young nurse who was just going about doing her job.
However, the Devil’s in the detail (pun entirely intended!). For example, when questioning her about her notes, he conveniently left out the bit “I’m evil, I did this ON PURPOSE”. It’s crucial detail like this that, when added up, shows you a side to her that BM was concealing.
Now, during the defence’s closing statement, BM (who’s a clever chap) is deploying the same cherry-picking method, but on steroids! He’s glossing over/ignoring all the dodgy bits that the prosecution admirably and convincingly tied together to make us see what she’s up to (e.g. falsifying paperwork to form an alibi). But he’s not stopping there, he’s also getting things mixed up, taking every bit of evidence in isolation (instead of examining it within context, which is more incriminating) and then trying to cast doubt on it by saying it’s possible to read it in another (benign) way — even though the possibility of it being benign is highly improbable. Take for example the blood samples in the insulin cases (as F1Grid pointed out, the delay in getting them to the lab actually works against the defence because the level of insulin drops as time passes by, so whatever level the lab did find in the end, it was probably even higher had it hit there on time). This is just one example of the sophistry at play.
I guess he’s doing his job as a defence lawyer. I have nothing personal against this: it’s what defence lawyers do. And after he failed to produce a witness other than the plumber, the loony FB brigade came down hard on him, saying he was actually setting her up to be found guilty, and that this must be grounds for a mistrial. I wouldn’t be surprised if these FB nut-jobs even went as far as to stalk him and send him hate mail (or even worse, threaten him and his loved ones. Sadly, these things do happen, and nutters abound. Remember the swastika garden lady?) So maybe BM amped up the defence because he didn’t want to be accused of not giving LL a proper defence. But please remember it’s a patchwork of carefully selected aspects of what happened that he’s weaves together to paint a picture of her innocence — it’s not the whole truth. That, for me, is what BNE showed; that’s the whole picture. If in doubt, remember how he summed up the prosecution’s case & you’ll see all the holes that BM has conveniently left unmentioned.

 

[Tofino]

11:37am

Mr Myers says Letby was seeing friends, going on holiday, enjoying salsa, a win at the Grand National.

He says it is important to keep in mind the person who these allegations are aimed at.

He says at this time, her main concern was moving house "and this was on her mind".

Text messages are shown to the court showing conversations with Letby about her new home in Chester, having been at hospital residence.

Oh didn’t realise serial killers would never be seen doing salsa. How did the trial get this far? She should be released immediately.

 

[Futtrit]

Welcome new friends!

Here's hoping that cursed Orville off twitter and her mate Dick don't show up

 

[tay65]

3:24pm

Mr Myers says Ashleigh Hudson had been away from nursery room 2 'for about 15 minutes', and when she comes back, no-one is in the nursery.

He says Letby is in the doorway of 'a small room'.

He says there was 'certainly enough light' for nurse Hudson to feed Child I.

He says she 'embarked on a lighting reconstruction' five years later, with the lighting level 'made for the purpose of this investigation'.

He says the light would be 'so dark' to 'put the milk in the bottle'.

He says Nicola Dennison said the babies were arranged so you can look at them.

He says the defence case is that is at odds with what Ashleigh Hudson had given.
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3:26pm

Mr Myers says Letby had, in cross-examination, said she had more experience what she was 'looking for - at.'

He says this was the fifth day of cross-exmanation, when Letby was increasingly tired and finding it difficult to concentrate.

He says there is no meaningful difference between the words 'for' and 'at'.

He adds room 2 has a window between the corridor and the nursery.

He says it is "unrealistic" to say the room was "impossible" to look in and see babies.

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3:30pm

Mr Myers asks what evidence there is for air embolus, as there was no NG Tube.

He says Dr Bohin relied upon discolouration of sternum.

He says extensive CPR took place on Child I after this collapse, and there was bruising as a result.

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3:32pm

Mr Myers says there is no clear basis as to what have happened, unless someone had used a 'mobile NG Tube in the most improbable of circumstances'.


3:39pm

Mr Myers says abdominal distention is a running theme for Child I, and while that does not mean harm was not done, it does not alone form the basis of an intent to kill.


He says: "we keep having incidents where Letby isn't doing anything she shouldn't do".

He says the defence are critical of the theory of air down the NG Tube.

He says it is a theory that has been done to support the prosecution.

He asks how much air is needed, and how long it takes.

So Ashleigh Hudson is a liar and there's no meaningful difference between for and at. So why did she change for to at, go silent and then request a break.

 

[biscuitthief]

I’ve heard that most barristers / lawyers do do some actor training. As this is all about theatrics! They have to be able to tell a story, convincingly, they have to project and show emotion. I did a performing arts course and a level drama was taken by some law students who knew acting would be necessary. So both sides will be using this to their advantage.

Yep, this. When I was deciding on my A Levels the law tutor told me that I should take theatre studies/drama as well if I wanted to become a barrister. According tho them, being a barrister is one big performance and the court is your stage!

I can't follow along to the live reporting of the defence closing... it's angering me. That said, if it reassures anyone, when I done jury service, the fact the defendant lied constantly during his testimony stuck with me more than the defence closing speech. The fact the victim never once waivered on the stand during a really difficult cross exam also stuck with me. Once I had heard the evidence, my mind was made up - he was guilty. There was nothing the defence barrister could have said that would have changed that.

 

[jackssack]

There's a few posters on mumsnet that think she's NG.
Apparently tattlers are too biased towards guilty.

 

[bluefootedbooby]

Oh look, they are already here. 17 x innocent she’s a scapegoat votes

View attachment 2281391

Do we think some of these people were waiting with baited breath for the memberships to reopen, just so they could vote NG? lol