Lucy Letby Case #42

[DellaC]

So for the first time I've voted not guilty.

Ben's performance in the theatre court has been staggering, of course all those professionals are lying, of course the grieving parents are lying. It's all been a big set up and I'm so glad that Benjamin has finally made me see the light.

only joking motherfuckers

 

[People-huv-tae-know]

Hi everyone, I've only been skim reading these threads as some of the details are quite distressing. I just wanted to quickly share my experience and thoughts if thats ok.

Spoiler: Long Read

I was a NICU mum when LL was arrested in 2018. It came on the news when I was expressing milk for my very poorly baby and up til then it had never occurred to me that a nurse could do this. It made feel fear for my own baby and suspicious of the nurses on our unit. I feel so guilty for that because they were all lovely and helped my baby numerous times when complications arose. Many nurses became friends and they were our family whilst we lived nearby. NICU is a bubble experience and some of the things you can witness are very traumatic and it never leaves you. I can still remember everything. We were also given diaries and encouraged to fill in everything our baby experienced from day to day. We got we certificates every time there was a scan, X Ray or surgery. As parents, we kept a complete and detailed written record. It was a coping mechanism. I also photographed my baby every day because we did not know if she would make it. When she was brought out of her coma, we took film too. We were not the only parents to do this. My baby was on a ventilator, ECMO and had chest drains. She was monitored heavily and had two nurses for when she was receiving ECMO. She would never have been able to dislodge any tubes and have that go unnoticed but then again we had 8 to 10 nurses in our room. I shared that because it's in contrast to a lot of what LL described or claimed. That's not how it should be.
This purely anecdotal evidence but our NICU (Scotland) was a large very busy one where all the specialist cases went, babies were flown in from the Highlands, Islands, England and Europe sometimes too for treatment so it's fair to say the staff have seen it all. I was there for several months and I witnessed collapses and there were sadly 2 deaths on our unit but everything had a rational explanation (NEC and Anencephaly which is a condition incompatible with life). We never had staff issues but there was issues with the drains and sometimes the sinks could not be used. None of that affected the babies though. Every other baby that was treated when mine was, went home safe and healthy, they are all at school now

I've been team guilty since the news broke, not sure why, just a gut feeling at first but BNE evidence really clinched it for me and much of what LL claimed is at odds with my NICU experience. I believe the parents, there is no way you would ever forget something so traumatic happening to your baby. A lot of her behavior sounds weird and inappropriate too. Our nurses were never like that. I'm hoping and praying the jury make the right decision. She is a monster and she needs locking away.
I've loved the humour on these threads and the love you all have for each other. It's made some of the really sad parts a little easier. Fingers crossed for next week.

 

[MmmB777]

Petition to be allowed to start a WhatsApp group so we can hear @nosycowmoo ’s insider knowledge. Who’s with me

 

[Lincoln34]

What a shit day, we totally underestimated how low he could go.

I am FUMING !!!! Dr J was there when my tiny son needed him most ( in 2005). Dr J was amazing. So calm. Got a blood sample from my little one in seconds whereas nurses had tried for 15 mins. He came to check on my son and I later and explained everything really well . ( They thought my son might have kidney reflux but it was actually a bad kidney infection). I feel ready to swing for those defaming him. He's a REALLY good doctor.

My son has just finished A levels. Might not have done but for Dr. J.

 

[slingo16]

For the jury to return a NG verdict they have to accept seven babies can just die with no explanation. That isn’t going to happen imo. Even if Ben creates reasonable doubt in certain cases on an individual level, it’s simply not enough here. I can’t see any juror concluding that Ben is the most reliable medical expert in this case anyway. I think most people will find it highly suspicious he came with no experts of his own and yet has a lot to say about the medical side of the case, he’s obviously spoken to an expert but decided not to bring them to caught, he seems to have cherry picked the pieces that suit him and presented them to the court in a way that can’t be challenged. I personally think he didn’t bring experts because they would have to agree with the prosecutions theory to some extent and make the whole confirmation bias/conspiracy defence pretty irrelevant

 

[nahm8]

If it helps people feel more comfortable - when I was on Jury Duty our case had only circumstantial evidence. The judge told us we can still find guilty beyond 'reasonable doubt' with circumstantial evidence and gave this scenario:

You go into your kitchen and notice the cookie jar is open, and a chocolate chip cookie is missing. You go into the living room and find your child with chocolate around his mouth and crumbs in his lap.

He said while its possible someone broke into your house, stole the cookie and rubbed chocolate onto your childs mouth, you can presume beyond reasonable doubt your kid nicked the cookie.

I imagine the judge in this case will give a similar explanation to the jury.

 

[gigilouxx]

Given the fact mumsnet seem to think a uk size 8 is fat they can well and truly fuck off with their opinions on this case

 

[nosycowmoo]

I've just looked on Reddit and someone has posted that they went to court today. They admit they haven't a medical background. Anyway someone else on Reddit asked what other people watching the trial are thinking and she said they've been a bit backwards and forwards because of BM but some are thinking the jury might bring a NG verdict because of a lack of evidence.

That could be my friend they tell everyone they are in the middle to come across neutral and get everyone’s opinions

BNE has missed out bits that don’t fit his case, BM has too. I still hand on heart believe she’s guilty and have faith the jury will too.

I think it she hadn’t took the stand, there might be enough doubt, but in person she dug her own grave over and over and over.

The scapegoat theory what are the chances they choose the least suspicious / likely - lovely Lucy, the chance it happened on nights when she was on nights, on days when she was on days, didn’t happen when she was on holiday or moved to admin, the chances of being suspicious of her and going to check and she’s watching a child collapse for 30 long seconds (I’ve watched my own asthmatic child deteriorate best believe I’d have flung for someone if they watched my child deteriorate for 30 seconds), the chances it’s when the parents have just left, the chances when the parents weren’t there, the chances that she’s said the baby had declined and been checked over by a senior yet the parent and grandparent were there and wern’t aware and no doctors note to prove it, the chances that the mum of dad of baby E lied about the blood and the phone call and milk, the chances that she keeps hanging around babies dying so much so she has to be told to go away to look after her own babies, the chances of hanging around the parents, trying to take their dying baby, the chances that the timings of the latter ones Co-insiding with the love interest being on shift etc to spend time with him, the chances that the collapses happened so often on her shifts on her watch, the chance that everyone noticed that and gave her so much attention about it poor LL it’s always you, the chances that she’d lie under oath about seemingly insignificant things, the chance she forgot she wasn’t arrested in a nighty- even tho it caused her ptsd, the chance she didn’t know what go commando means.

NG means all that is all Co-incidence all of it 17 times.

And then, THEN, after choosing lovely LL as a scapegoat you go into her house and find a shredder she didn’t remember, neither did she remember writing keep on the box and taking it to her parents house, then finding handover sheets 257 of them long days maybe 3/4 a week that’s a high percentage she kept, the ones in the question being separate with 15 others under her bed, imagine your best excuse being that you collect paper- paper you aren’t allowed to take home, imagine the girl you pinned it on keeping one pristine safe in her memory box, imagine she searched their parents on fb, even on Xmas day, imagine that when questioned she forgot one baby existed yet repeatedly searched their parents, imagine they said they say they don’t know what an air embolism is in police interview, yet they did training on them and wrote a datix on them, imagine they were narky on cross exam, couldn’t be bothered to turn the pages, imagine instead of explaining they said one word answers or nothing at all. Imagine they didn’t remember things they said 2 weeks before, but imagine they also now remember things 7 years on, that the didn’t remember 2,3,4 years on, in police interview, imagine they argued agreed facts, imagine they contacted people they were not allowed you, imagine they then lied about that under oath, imagine they found post it notes that they scapegoat had written saying ‘I’m evil’ ‘I did this on purpose’
Imagine not one expert witness in the uk would speak on her behalf, imagine watching those babies pass- however it happened and barely shredding a tear re-visiting in court, but imagine them crying at a photo of your own bedroom instead, imagine that someone had put insulin into TPN bags,

The luck they must’ve had to pin all that on Lovely LL, and all these Co-incidences to have happened.

Yes BM is trying and clutching at straws to give some doubt, of course that’s his job, but they are allowed to use cross interference and knowledge of how people behave etc, honestly I loose count of how many times I’ve been, I was there again today and in person it’s sooo different can you really say all the above is likely, so many Coincidences etc IMO as much as I didn’t want to believe her to be capable, to use her own words ‘I did this’
---

That could be my friend they tell everyone they are in the middle to come across neutral and get everyone’s opinions

BNE has missed out bits that don’t fit his case, BM has too. I still hand on heart believe she’s guilty and have faith the jury will too.

I think it she hadn’t took the stand, there might be enough doubt, but in person she dug her own grave over and over and over.

The scapegoat theory what are the chances they choose the least suspicious / likely - lovely Lucy, the chance it happened on nights when she was on nights, on days when she was on days, didn’t happen when she was on holiday or moved to admin, the chances of being suspicious of her and going to check and she’s watching a child collapse for 30 long seconds (I’ve watched my own asthmatic child deteriorate best believe I’d have flung for someone if they watched my child deteriorate for 30 seconds), the chances it’s when the parents have just left, the chances when the parents weren’t there, the chances that she’s said the baby had declined and been checked over by a senior yet the parent and grandparent were there and wern’t aware and no doctors note to prove it, the chances that the mum of dad of baby E lied about the blood and the phone call and milk, the chances that she keeps hanging around babies dying so much so she has to be told to go away to look after her own babies, the chances of hanging around the parents, trying to take their dying baby, the chances that the timings of the latter ones Co-insiding with the love interest being on shift etc to spend time with him, the chances that the collapses happened so often on her shifts on her watch, the chance that everyone noticed that and gave her so much attention about it poor LL it’s always you, the chances that she’d lie under oath about seemingly insignificant things, the chance she forgot she wasn’t arrested in a nighty- even tho it caused her ptsd, the chance she didn’t know what go commando means.

NG means all that is all Co-incidence all of it 17 times.

And then, THEN, after choosing lovely LL as a scapegoat you go into her house and find a shredder she didn’t remember, neither did she remember writing keep on the box and taking it to her parents house, then finding handover sheets 257 of them long days maybe 3/4 a week that’s a high percentage she kept, the ones in the question being separate with 15 others under her bed, imagine your best excuse being that you collect paper- paper you aren’t allowed to take home, imagine the girl you pinned it on keeping one pristine safe in her memory box, imagine she searched their parents on fb, even on Xmas day, imagine that when questioned she forgot one baby existed yet repeatedly searched their parents, imagine they said they say they don’t know what an air embolism is in police interview, yet they did training on them and wrote a datix on them, imagine they were narky on cross exam, couldn’t be bothered to turn the pages, imagine instead of explaining they said one word answers or nothing at all. Imagine they didn’t remember things they said 2 weeks before, but imagine they also now remember things 7 years on, that the didn’t remember 2,3,4 years on, in police interview, imagine they argued agreed facts, imagine they contacted people they were not allowed you, imagine they then lied about that under oath, imagine they found post it notes that they scapegoat had written saying ‘I’m evil’ ‘I did this on purpose’
Imagine not one expert witness in the uk would speak on her behalf, imagine watching those babies pass- however it happened and barely shredding a tear re-visiting in court, but imagine them crying at a photo of your own bedroom instead, imagine that someone had put insulin into TPN bags,

The luck they must’ve had to pin all that on Lovely LL, and all these Co-incidences to have happened.

Yes BM is trying and clutching at straws to give some doubt, of course that’s his job, but they are allowed to use cross interference and knowledge of how people behave etc, honestly I loose count of how many times I’ve been, I was there again today and in person it’s sooo different can you really say all the above is likely, so many Coincidences etc IMO as much as I didn’t want to believe her to be capable, to use her own words ‘I did this’

And for alll the above reasons I am sure I’m sure, beyond all reasonable doubt

 

[MmmB777]

Historical cases are really difficult and tricky. Sexual assaults have appalling conviction rates, I could talk a lot about that but won’t. Unfortunately, in those cases, it’s often perceived as word against word. My parent works these cases a lot because they often do work in terms of the capacity to consent- what you hear and read about is the tip of the iceberg. There are so many horrors. Where there are vulnerable people, usually women and children, there will unfortunately always be people ready to take advantage. It’s why I firmly believe a society must always safeguard women and children above everything else.
There is also, always more good in the world. For all the baddies, there are countless people trying to make it right, trying to help, trying to bring justice, trying to prevent. Trying to pick up the pieces.

This case, is incredibly complex. It’s historic. It’s full of technical and medical detail. It’s no doubt been utterly painstaking to pick apart. I imagine as they began, they really had no idea truly what they’d uncover. They discovered a poisoner. They discovered the links. They discovered what was in her house. Bags under the bed collated with data on most of these children. The note.
There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence. One BM is currently trying to climb but you can see he’s nowhere near managing it.
But if you think about hard evidence.. what does that look like in this case? Why do people expect there to have been witnesses to see her physically killing? When she killed covertly in her place of work using air and medical equipment. Why does cctv equal a conviction? Is that the measure for all murders now- someone physically witnesses the act and cctv also picks it up. I wonder what percentage of convictions we’d have!

There are bodies. Tiny babies bodies, full of air. Air not seen before. Air by the catheter site. Air in the brain. Evidence from a leading radiologist, that has studied air after death, air in children. He’s telling you there is no other conclusion than air administered. Liver injuries only comparable with abuse or road collisions.
When else would this be described as circumstantial? Are bodies with stab wounds circumstantial if the defendant is accused of stabbing? There’s no DNA evidence, again is that the measure? When a victim is known to the person why would that matter at all.

It still boils down to people believing these tiny babies have a death sentence. They don’t.
All the expert witness evidence is hard evidence in my opinion. The witness accounts support that. The parents. The idea dozens of people are prepared to stand in court and say there were all these unusual happenings and rashes and things they’ve never experienced before or since - and somehow they’ve all been persuaded somehow to do so? It’s not feasible. There isn’t any way that all the other circumstantial pieces of evidence (of which there really is hundreds) add up and match up to these babies little bodies and unexplainable deaths. Or to a poisoner being on the ward which is indisputable however much Ben tries to bust his untalced balls to tell you it isn’t.

She is going down forever for what she’s done. Keep the faith!

 

[Liverbird2003]

Going back to him saying these babies were poorly and likely were going to die anyway, even if that is true, it doesn't make it legal to kill them. I know it isn't true, but murder is murder regardless of the condition of the patient.

Secondly, why is he insisting these babies were at deaths door because they were admitted to a NNU?
A huge % of people who are admitted to hospital are unwell. Doesn't mean they are dying, it just means they need medical support to recover.

 

[Okgolightly]

She's crying because she knows she's going to be penning her wanky post it notes from prison for the rest of her puff

Crying because she’s realising she will never again get to experience the pure exhilaration of a 50% off sale at Matalan.

 

[MmmB777]

For the jury to return a NG verdict they have to accept seven babies can just die with no explanation. That isn’t going to happen imo. Even if Ben creates reasonable doubt in certain cases on an individual level, it’s simply not enough here. I can’t see any juror concluding that Ben is the most reliable medical expert in this case anyway. I think most people will find it highly suspicious he came with no experts of his own and yet has a lot to say about the medical side of the case, he’s obviously spoken to an expert but decided not to bring them to caught, he seems to have cherry picked the pieces that suit him and presented them to the court in a way that can’t be challenged. I personally think he didn’t bring experts because they would have to agree with the prosecutions theory to some extent and make the whole confirmation bias/conspiracy defence pretty irrelevant

If it’s not @slingo coming through with the keep the faith pep talk we all needed

 

[JCMSadie]

Hi new members! Important questions - are you ginger, what are your thoughts on Turkish Delight, and do you have a Matalan card?

Your permission to maintain a Tattle membership hinges on your answers to the above, so consider them carefully.

 

[MmmB777]

Just remember absolutely every arsehole out there that has pleaded not guilty has had a defence that will do everything they can to cast doubt, even when it feels blatantly obvious.
Shipman’s defence was his good character, his many other patients that didn’t die (lucky them), the way the morphine results were conducted and their validity were thrown into question, they were all old and ill and about to pop their clogs anyway.
Beverly Allitt’s colleagues took a battering (people killed themselves), the maternity unit that the same consultants worked on had just had a terrible report, they were chronically understaffed hence they employed BA despite having reservations, there was “no proof” BA had been there, there weren’t specifics of what BA had actually done for some children so I’m sure they made a meal of that, they questioned reliability of the insulin measurements, the children were apparently all acutely unwell and about to die (really laughable if you know much about her poor victims), I’m sure they will have given excuses for the medical equipment and recordings that they found at her home too.
This is just an annoying step in the process, one that will hopefully help keep her in prison forever. Judges directions were extremely helpful and the jury will finish on them
Prison name
Etta Bogeyeverydayintheprisoncanteen

 

[DellaC]

09.25am

Benjamin Myers KC has entered the expansive changing area within the courthouse.

As part of his preparation before his performance in the courtroom Benjamin likes to tuck his penis and has a special pair of frilly French knickers he wears. These don't particularly bring him luck but he likes the feel of the synthetic satin against his freshly waxed scrotum.

09.29am

Benjamin Myers is now looking into the mirror whilst repeatedly slapping his cheeks and shouting 'YOU ARE THE BEST' and 'BENNY IS THE BOSS'


09.33

Benjamin is now applying vaseline to his (very hairy and pink) nipples.

Court prep is complete.

 

[MmmB777]

 

[LittleMy]

The jury have one advantage over the Facebook/Twitter idiots. They have access to ALL of the evidence and the added advantage of having sat through the entire process, listening, being able to make notes, seeing her on the stand and her behaviours. They will have heard seen the other witnesses giving evidence, seen the babies’ parents. They will have the opportunity to ask questions of the judge if they are confused at any point. They will be privy to much more than the rest of us. It’s been 8 months out of their lives, I can’t see them making any decisions lightly here. I imagine they will be quite dedicated to it by now.

 

[od12839]

Finding it difficult to deal with the defence but that's natural, he's supposed to make you doubt and you're supposed to reflect on it and make your own conclusion.

In general I'm finding a lot of what Ben says compelling but also.... questionable? "Poor Care" is a description, not a diagnosis. You don't die of poor care, you die of pneumonia, infection, dehydration, etc which can be CAUSED by poor care. I don't know how you can just say poor care with no specifics to back it up.

I'm waiting for the insulin cases, as always they'll be crucial. Very curious to see what comes of the blatant contradiction in the blood test results...

 

[coffeeandwine]

The thing is, extensive reviews were undertaken of COCH after the deaths. They found that even with poor staffing levels there was no reason these babies should have died. BM is absolutely clutching at straws and I hope the jury see that.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I'm sorry but what evidence do people want in order to convict her at this stage?? We live in the real world, serial killers and murders don't just admit they have done it and we aren't going to ever have cctv footage of the likes of Letby doing this. But even if we did people would argue that it's just "circumstantial".

She wrote she did this on purpose. That's the closest thing you will get to a confession. In order to believe she's innocent you need to believe all the nurses, doctors, parents and medical experts are lying and for me that's just not reasonable.

Life isn't a TV show, "circumstantial" evidence carries more weight than people seem to think because if it didn't we wouldn't have very many murderers locked up. It's not just one incidence here that's easy to make excuses for, it's a pattern.

BM isn't a medical expert, I actually don't know how he's allowed to do what he's doing because to me it's tantamount to lying to the jury.

Just because BM says something doesn't mean it has any weight to it. I can easily tell you the sky is green, not blue, that doesn't make it so.

I'm filled with rage right now, if the jury provide a NG verdict on their heads so be it. She will kill again.