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Futtrit

VIP Member
1:56pm

Mr Myers says none of the other staff, including Dr Ukoh, give a discolouration description for Child M.

He says Child M did make a good recovery, gradually, from the collapse.

He says the significant issue is Letby's last contact with Child M is when she is involved with administering antibiotics at 3.45pm, and if air has been administered at that time, he says it would not take 15-16 minutes to have effect.

He says air embolus is fast acting.

He says the amount of air alleged to be administered in this case is 0.5ml.

He says if there was an intention to kill, it would have been larger.

He asks how someone would measure 0.5ml or calculate it.

He says even a minute quantity would have a quick impact.

He says fortunately, neither twin of Child L or Child M appeared to have suffered harm as a consequence.

He says the theory of air embolus is "utterly unrealistic" for Child M.

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1:57pm

Mr Myers refers to the case of Child N, for which there are three counts alleged against Lucy Letby. He outlines the events for Child N, who had haemophilia.

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2:01pm

Mr Myers says Professor Sally Kinsey said Child N was more likely to suffer a bleed from trauma than babies who do not have haemophilia, and the amount of blood would be larger.

Prof Kinsey had said the process of instrumentation had the potential to cause bleeding, such as a naso-gastric tube.

Mr Myers says the Countess of Chester Hospital did not have Factor 8 for Child N at birth.

He says for the first Child N event, for which it is alleged there was trauma and/or an air embolus, he asks if Letby was even there.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
10:32am

The trial judge, Mr Justice James Goss, says to accommodate timetabling issues, the court will be sitting until 3pm today.

To make up for lost time, the lunch break will be shorter than usual, and the court will begin at 10am on Friday.

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10:33am

Mr Myers refers to the case of Child J, and outlines the events which happened to the baby girl in November 2015, and what is alleged.
 
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I wasnt disagreeing with you I was probably thinking outloud more than anything and where i am it was 1am haha I really havent been following this case to well like i said :) so ignore my musings
so it being a neonate with no other bloods to go off yeah first thoughts would be sepsis, always because neonate and yes CRP is generally used as an indicator of infection severity but I would also look at a hypoxic event because of the rapid rise and it being a neonate hypoxic ischemia causes rapid CRP increases and like I said ive not been following all that well i was a rambling half asleep person last night haha but if the baby had any period of hypoxia this could be attributed to the rapid increase in CRP with no other infective markers present
Thank you for your reply, I had not thought of/ seen mentioned the possibility of hypoxic ischemia being responsible for the sudden increase in CRP in this baby. I jumped straight to the conclusion of infection which I guess is what the defence was hoping by mentioning it again.
I’m not meaning to agree/disagree I’m genuinely just curious about what other people think/know.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
12:56pm

He adds there was a delay in inserting the second chest drain, and Child H had not been sedated.

He says the issue of the 'moving second chest drain' is "hotly contested".

Highlighting the 'sub-optimal care', Mr Myers says there is "a very good reason" why babies got better when transported to a tertiary centre, and it 'wasn't because of Lucy Letby'.
 
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Tishtushmush

Active member
I am a few weeks ahead of you, but baby K (11 weeks now) had very bad reflux for her first few weeks. She was crying and squirming with pain after each feed and would vomit/projectile vomit at times. I didn’t know what to be doing or if I was doing anythign wrong. It’s quite upsetting when so tired too. Could you get in touch with a lactation consultant? Infacol helped us a little bit (I think) and I would sit up after each feed for about 30 mins (painful when so exhausted). Neither helped much. I got a lovely lactation consultant out who felt I had a fast let down (spraying everywhere and painful at times). She recommended side lying for feeds which kind of helped and advised to pump a little bit before morning feeds when I had a lot of milk. It all helped a little but not enough. I booked a GP appointment but before we went she seemed to just suddenly improve around the 8 week mark. So I never got as far as getting a script for Losec. She still spews occasionally but she is much less distressed now and she’s putting on weight so I think she’s just grown out of it maybe. I think a lactation consultant might be a good way to go. I second the Facebook groups too but some of the women can be quite intense (in the nicest way possible). Do you have La Leche League or any of those groups near to you? Wishing you the best with baby Caledonian. I hope that’s somewhat helpful. 🩷
thank you 😘I'm glad you and baby k have came out the other side. Breastfeeding can be such a minefield at times. I see a lady from the infant feeding team and she is amazing. She was the one who helped me sort positioning when the hospitals way had had me crying in pain for 4 days when he was born. She sorted me within 30mins and it wasn't painful. I do have a fast let down so I stem the flow a bit by pressing gently on my boob when he first latches on
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I don't know how to hide my post but yes, both of mine had silent reflux. My eldest just suffered because dr didn't believe in "silent" reflux but my youngest was given Ranitidine which controlled it really well. Omeprazole is another (but stronger) option for breastfed babies. However both of mine developed reflux symptoms again when they were older and we found out they had dairy/soya allergies. Might be worth discussing with the lady from the feeding team about you trialling dairy free for a month to see if it helps? Really hope your little one is more settled soon- it's so hard!
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
11:51am

Mr Myers says it is important to consider each count separately.

He says it is not accepted Letby has committed this offence.

He says there was a delay in getting the sample taken from Child L sorted, and was outside the 30-minute guidance, whether it was taken at noon or 3.45pm.

He says the Countess of Chester Hospital Pathology department records the lab specimen report notes it was received at 6.26pm.

He says Dr Anthony Ukoh says the sample was taken at noon.
 
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tay65

Chatty Member
I read on the Guardian that last year she was at HMP Peterborough. Maybe she's moved
I wonder if she was moved from Peterborough as Peterborough is too far to travel from each day.
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I wonder if she was moved from Peterborough as Peterborough is too far to travel from each day.
Sorry someone said this before me but I've only ust seen the comment.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
2:55pm

He says, for the first event [that Letby is charged with], the cause of the collapse on September 30 was said by Dr Evans and Dr Bohin to be air down the NG Tube.

Mr Myers says this is the event with Letby's note which the prosecution took issue, that there was 'no doctor review', and she was 'lying about a fictional review at 1500'.

He says the agreed evidence by Child I's mother said she was changing Child I's nappy when a nurse she later found to be Letby said Child I's stomach appeared swollen.

In a second statement by Child I's mother, she said the first time she saw Letby was 3pm, and remembered Letby 'I'll go and get the doctor to come and check her.'

The mother said she agreed, and a female doctor went and checked Child I.
 
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Maisiemouse

Active member
CRP of 218 in a neonate is huge 🥴🫣 within a 24 hour period. That has definitely made me have a wobble with child G.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
12:19pm

The trial is resuming after a short break.

Mr Myers says there was one detail he had omitted before the break.

He says at 3.40pm, bolus of 10% dextrose was administered for Child L.

He says the prosecution says that would account for the higher blood glucose reading.

He says the problem of a 1.5 [heel prick] reading at 4pm still remains, as does the 3pm 1.5 reading.

He says it is difficult to work out what effect it would have.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
12:22pm

Mr Myers refers to the 6.05am 'profound desaturation' for Child G. 'NG aspirated as abdo appeared v large, ~100mls aspirated'.

He says the presumption of guilt is Letby did this.

Alison Ventress had said, in cross-examination, this was most likely to be air.

He says Dr Stephen Brearey first gave evidence in the trial at this point.

He said he "assumed it was fluid".

Mr Myers says that is "extraordinary" and there's "no basis" for that.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
11:34am

Mr Myers refers to the case of Child L.

He says it is the second of the two insulin counts, where Child L had low blood sugar for a period of 53 hours, as identified by Professor Peter Hindmarsh.

He says the laboratory result, if accurate, shows artificial insulin administered exgoneously.
 
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urgh I’m sorry you’re experiencing the hell of reflux, I’m in this same hell too my (baby is now 4 months). Sounds like you have a fab supply (if he’s bringing up lots of milk that suggests he’s getting enough from you 🙃). A few things could be exacerbating it so best to ensure it’s still not any of these things; tongue tie, shallow latch, fast let down. Sometimes it’s just their floppy valve and the older they get it self-corrects. As you say you have a fast flow, sometimes leaning back or doing koala position can help this, or letting milk flow into a muslin for the first bit before latching him. If latch & position is good then you can get omeprazole and gaviscon from GP but I’ve found they’re a nightmare to get into breastfed baby & cause constipation but your baby might be more receptive than mine! Is there an infant feeding team in your area? They’re so so helpful. If it’s affecting his weight gain, then your GP should refer to paediatrician and dietician. PS There is a rare condition called pyloric stenosis which does affect more boys so if you’re worried about him then best to get him checked over to exclude this also. Sending you solidarity, it’s an absolute nightmare 😔
I feed sitting back and not bolt upright like the hospital wanted me to as that wasnt comfy. I hadn't heard of that condition before so just had a read up on it. His 💩 are generally quite mucousy and haven't really changed consistency for a while and there usually isn't a lot of it. I'll phone the doctors and see what they can do for us
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
3:24pm

Mr Myers says Ashleigh Hudson had been away from nursery room 2 'for about 15 minutes', and when she comes back, no-one is in the nursery.

He says Letby is in the doorway of 'a small room'.

He says there was 'certainly enough light' for nurse Hudson to feed Child I.

He says she 'embarked on a lighting reconstruction' five years later, with the lighting level 'made for the purpose of this investigation'.

He says the light would be 'so dark' to 'put the milk in the bottle'.

He says Nicola Dennison said the babies were arranged so you can look at them.

He says the defence case is that is at odds with what Ashleigh Hudson had given.
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3:26pm

Mr Myers says Letby had, in cross-examination, said she had more experience what she was 'looking for - at.'

He says this was the fifth day of cross-exmanation, when Letby was increasingly tired and finding it difficult to concentrate.

He says there is no meaningful difference between the words 'for' and 'at'.

He adds room 2 has a window between the corridor and the nursery.

He says it is "unrealistic" to say the room was "impossible" to look in and see babies.

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3:30pm

Mr Myers asks what evidence there is for air embolus, as there was no NG Tube.

He says Dr Bohin relied upon discolouration of sternum.

He says extensive CPR took place on Child I after this collapse, and there was bruising as a result.

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3:32pm

Mr Myers says there is no clear basis as to what have happened, unless someone had used a 'mobile NG Tube in the most improbable of circumstances'.


3:39pm

Mr Myers says abdominal distention is a running theme for Child I, and while that does not mean harm was not done, it does not alone form the basis of an intent to kill.


He says: "we keep having incidents where Letby isn't doing anything she shouldn't do".

He says the defence are critical of the theory of air down the NG Tube.

He says it is a theory that has been done to support the prosecution.

He asks how much air is needed, and how long it takes.
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
12:27pm

The note also refers to 'ETT removed at 0610. Thick secretions++ in mouth. Blood clot at end of ETT...Reintubated at 0615'.

Mr Myers says Child G was not getting air in due to a blood clot.

He says Alison Ventress had agreed in cross-examination the blood clot had interfered with the ETT.

Dr Bohin had agreed, in evidence, blood clots can cause a desaturation, when describing a desaturation event for Child G on a different occasion.

Mr Myers says there was a failure to ventilate Child G for hours
 
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Futtrit

VIP Member
11:17am

Mr Myers says the evidence is the stock [replacement] bag must have been contaminated with insulin.

He asks how can Letby can be responsible for that bag, as no-one could have foreseen it would have been needed?

He says the first bag was replaced as the cannula line had tissued.

He says it is like "Russian dolls of improbability".

He says a TPN bag lasts 48 hours.

He says there are a number of stock bags kept, not kept in any particular order.

He says there is no evidence no other babies subsequently displayed symptoms of high insulin from the other bags.

He says unless Letby had a "Nostradamus-like" ability to read the future, in the event of a targeted attack, a stock bag would not be contaminated with insulin on the off-chance it would be needed, and the bag was the one chosen 'at random' by a colleague.
 
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