Lucy Letby case #28

[dxo]

There is so much evidence. It’s taken 6 months for the prosecution. None of the babies were expected to die (I’d only exclude poor baby K possibly) or have life threatening problems out of nowhere.
There are mountains of records to show they were on upward trends with health, that their stats, gasses obs were all ok - they all have to be wrong. Mountains of evidence from witnesses at the hosp ranging from parents, consultants, medics from different hospitals, all explaining that the responses to resus were insane, they’ve never seen things like it before or since, they were shocked, their babies went repeatedly from stable to deaths door, lots of the time it’s when they’ve just decided to go home or get food. Every single one was a shock and unexpected. They have compelling forensic evidence of large amounts of air. Where it’s there in veins, she has just accessed veins. There’s a large bubble of air by baby D’s catheter. There is a line of air down the spine to the rectum. Air comparable with car crashes and overwhelming infection. Where babies were fed by Letby, their stomachs and bowels are inflated like balloons. CPAP doesn’t kill 33 week old 4lb babies on low setting after a couple of days. It doesn’t happen. Or there would be dead babies up and down the country. Prem babies life expectancy would be horrendous.
A lot of the babies had an over 90% chance of survival and would still have been treated at CoCH after the downgrade. So then we’re into possibility vs probability. Even if you want to believe that (and it’s not an insult it’s a fact that if you think Letby is innocent it’s all chance) this is pure coincidence even related to Letby working overtime, you surely have to accept that this all down to her bad luck is really really slim. Her colleagues found it shocking it was all happening to her. She didn’t seem to worry until the very end.
I have seen absolutely nobody explain the triplets deaths? Or what conceivable innocent scenario there is for the insulin? Even if you’d like to say
Letby herself incompetently gave insulin at a lethal dose, inappropriately and without a prescription… this isn’t just negligence, she asks for constant updates about the baby’s hypo all day and night. Nobody did that by accident. It’s not possible and it’s not claimed by defence. The next dose was higher. Someone wanted to finish the job. If you think it could have been the shift leader, who is still a senior neonatal lead, quite frankly that’s on a par with swastika gardens imo!
You’re totally right about the sheets and the Facebook searches, they’re far more easy to explain away although personally I absolutely cannot! Especially when these things are incredibly common in cases of healthcare serial killers.
I find it totally mind boggling that someone could be more compelled by Letby’s waterworks and her saying it’s just normal for her to search people and just had no idea she had hundreds of illegal docs and was just so so upset when she tucked her I’m evil note into her diary.. than all the evidence we’ve heard that these babies were killed.
I would really like to know.. if people are able to accept that these babies were killed or harmed by air embolism, or even if there was a hypothetical case of babies being killed by air embolism, what evidence would you expect to see that is not in this case?
- fleeting embolism rashes
- pale and unusual mottling
- unusual and inexplicable air at PM
- pain, screaming, signs of discomfort
- breathing and chest wall moving but heart stopping
- strange responses to resus - as if something has passed through and begin to breathe again.
-poor outcomes, death, brain damage
- sudden deterioration
- no soft signs of infection, on antibiotics, recovering
- prominent veins
- one person having accessed circulation or been found alone with the patient before the event.
- one person frequently around the collapses

This is why I think there's no doubt in my mind she's guilty. You cannot argue with the medical facts.... perfectly put thank you.

 

[veevee04]

They should read this out just before the jury go to deliberate...bravo!

The defence go last with closing arguments. I think she's guilty but again these cases are hard to convict they will bring out the statistical analysis arguments soon. That Danish nurse who had an eye witness to her poisoning with diazepam had her sentence reduced to 12 years . The defence job isn't to prove innocence it's just to plant doubt in the prosecutions case. That ben myers is slippery he's gotten off quite a few murderers.

Anyway I'm hoping the jury convict , the thing that stuck out to me was she didn't leave nor seem traumatised after all these unexpecred baby deaths. She had to be forcibly moved to admin duties. She seemed to revel in the drama of unexpected collapses in tiny babies. The joy is watching people get better. Maybe she was jealous of people marrying and having children.

 

[Deeznutslol]

For the last few threads we’ve had pretty much above 75% guilty votes, but looking at the poll on this thread it seems that more people are starting to believe she’s innocent / moving back to unsure.
I think it’s interesting because I didn’t hear anything from her yesterday which made me think she was innocent, if anything it made me think she was more guilty. At the end of the day, the only opinion that actually matters is the jury’s, but given how 50/50 public opinion still appears to be, I wonder if there are similar differences of opinion regarding her guilt within the jury too.

 

[IGiveUp22]

Re the police not letting her get changed etc this is standard practice. Sounds like they did a pre-planned raid which almost always occur early hours as it’s assumed most suspects will be in bed so less chance of them resisting/running.
The only way they’d have allowed her to get changed would have been if what she had on was indecent. This is also normal as someone said above, she could potentially try destroy evidence/do a runner.
Plus, they’ll have wanted the house search to commence asap so they’ll have wanted her out of there.

It’s possible they also took her clothing at the station due to the charge she faced but as the alleged murders were in the past & at work, unlikely her clothing was needed. But she would have been given something to wear if she was cold etc. so as long as she was decent, it’s standard practice when you’re arrested - it’s not a bloody fashion show. You’re off to custody hun. Where everyone stinks

 

[Lonette]

I just can't make my mind up.

Mostly I think she's guilty because it just does not look good in terms of the evidence produced thus far but then I think what if she's not? There have been horrendous miscarriages of justice throughout history, after all.

 

[fcukthispoo]

I'm new to this thread (just found it!) and by all accounts (including her own admission in her diary) she is guilty.
However, has anyone speculated about *why* she killed / attempted to kill babies? (sorry, I'm new and this might have been asked before)....

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

I know they are not huge to a lot of people but for me the NOTES tell me a lot - if she had said she wrote these after a disciplinary hearing or after the police interviews … but they were her thoughts BEFORE she was taken into custody.

What innocent person writes I killed them on purpose, I am evil I did this.

 

[MedeaWho]

I'm new to this thread (just found it!) and by all accounts (including her own admission in her diary) she is guilty.
However, has anyone speculated about *why* she killed / attempted to kill babies? (sorry, I'm new and this might have been asked before)....

Just read any one of the threads, this has been discussed continually

 

[Lonette]

I know they are not huge to a lot of people but for me the NOTES tell me a lot - if she had said she wrote these after a disciplinary hearing or after the police interviews … but they were her thoughts BEFORE she was taken into custody.

What innocent person writes I killed them on purpose, I am evil I did this.

Yeah, those notes are why I heavily lean towards guilty too. Who writes like that other than someone with a very sick mind who does evil things?

 

[veevee04]

I know they are not huge to a lot of people but for me the NOTES tell me a lot - if she had said she wrote these after a disciplinary hearing or after the police interviews … but they were her thoughts BEFORE she was taken into custody.

What innocent person writes I killed them on purpose, I am evil I did this.

It doesn't for me it's established by now she's a full on weirdo who does strange things. There's a lot of weirdos out there who aren't killers. The thing that cements the guilt for me is the stable babies having random collapses, air and insulin injected whilst she was on shift which stopped after she left. If the defence don't pull out a stasticial analysis defence or medical witnesses for the defence imo she's 100 percent guilty. Notes and facebook searches don't sway anything for me.

 

[CyanideKiss]

It's not working very well. Comes across as creepy instead. Sweet Dreams? Teddy bears? Snow white? You're an adult woman, Lucy! If guilty, she'll be the world's drippiest serial killer.

I agree. Her mind is obviously broken and she wants to remain a little girl, despite being a grown women. I wonder if she saw those poor babies as her 'dolls' to play with as she wished?

 

[veevee04]

Also that she bought a big dildo at an Ann summers party with colleagues doesn't sway me. Maybe I've met too many non murderous weirdos. I think she did it based on the medical evidence if Ben Myers has no strong argument to put back for that she will go down.

 

[LittleMy]

Also that she bought a big dildo at an Ann summers party with colleagues doesn't sway me. Maybe I've met too many non murderous weirdos. I think she did it based on the medical evidence if Ben Myers has no strong argument to put back for that she will go down.

Who knows if that’s even true, could be a buller.

The medical evidence is what I’m going on, and probability. I agree - if BM doesn’t produce his own expert witnesses to strongly contest that which we’ve already heard then her guilt, as far as I’m concerned, is undeniable.

 

[raspberryjuice]

For the last few threads we’ve had pretty much above 75% guilty votes, but looking at the poll on this thread it seems that more people are starting to believe she’s innocent / moving back to unsure.
I think it’s interesting because I didn’t hear anything from her yesterday which made me think she was innocent, if anything it made me think she was more guilty. At the end of the day, the only opinion that actually matters is the jury’s, but given how 50/50 public opinion still appears to be, I wonder if there are similar differences of opinion regarding her guilt within the jury too.

I think the big difference in this threads results compared to previous is just that there was A LOT of press attention yesterday so (as seen on the thread) a lot of people who dip in and out or stopped following the trial have popped up again and voted without maybe fully reading and understanding the evidence presented so far. I’m not saying this applies to our regular posters who sit on the fence or have had doubts, I know they’ve followed along just as closely and shared their thoughts for the past 6 months. But I think a lot of people are suddenly becoming aware or being drawn back in with the coverage the trial is getting now and probably haven’t caught up on 6 months worth of evidence which is skewing the results.

 

[Deeznutslol]

I think the big difference in this threads results compared to previous is just that there was A LOT of press attention yesterday so (as seen on the thread) a lot of people who dip in and out or stopped following the trial have popped up again and voted without maybe fully reading and understanding the evidence presented so far. I’m not saying this applies to our regular posters who sit on the fence or have had doubts, I know they’ve followed along just as closely and shared their thoughts for the past 6 months. But I think a lot of people are suddenly becoming aware or being drawn back in with the coverage the trial is getting now and probably haven’t caught up on 6 months worth of evidence which is skewing the results.

Well I thought that too, but there hasn’t been a significant increase in the number of votes on this poll compared to the last, so I don’t think it’s like new people coming in who haven’t been following the trial skewing the results.
I’ve also been reading around and I think I’ve been too quick to write off the people saying she’s innocent as just a small group of nutty CTists, I don’t think that’s the case anymore. I’ve seen a lot of posts recently where it’s clear that people have been following the trial closely, weighing up the evidence as we have done here and are just simply not coming to the same conclusion as us about her guilt. Or for whatever reasons they think she is guilty but feel that the prosecution has not provided enough evidence for a conviction.

It concerns me because all BM has to do is provide reasonable doubt that what the prosecutions expert witnesses are saying is what happened and it’s over. I don’t doubt that he could find some to do that. The defense has only had 1 day in court so far and already it seems that people are swaying away from guilty. To me that suggests that a lot of people’s minds are not fully set either way and have so far not been convinced by the medical evidence put forward. We have to wait for the cross examinations, but I think if she can hold it together through that then there’s every chance that she will get off unfortunately.

 

[FlowerPower987]

I don’t see how she could ever go back to nursing.
She surely can’t have current registration, or if she has it’ll lapse any second, how could you do enough practice hours in prison?

if she’s found NG I doubt she’d get accepted onto a Return to Practice so her NMC pin is toast whatever.

Rebecca Leighton was struck off over them finding tramadol in her house, LL had handover sheets and from what we’ve heard her documentation at work left quite a bit to be desired. If she tries to go back in I think COCH have probably already done what the NHS do to whistleblowers and gone through everything she’s ever done, found all the errors and so they’d fitness to practice her and find her wanting.

it would be weird to want to go back after this anyway wouldn’t it?

You have to renew your PIN every year to stay on the NMC register and do at least 2 shifts a year (I think), plus revalidation every 3 years which is mandatory to keeping your PIN.
I very much doubt she has been able to do this, I imagine that her PIN status is currently suspended and even if she’s found NG I very much doubt she will be able to return to nursing easily…
---

You have to renew your PIN every year to stay on the NMC register and do at least 2 shifts a year (I think), plus revalidation every 3 years which is mandatory to keeping your PIN.
I very much doubt she has been able to do this, I imagine that her PIN status is currently suspended and even if she’s found NG I very much doubt she will be able to return to nursing easily…

Edit to add - I meant that she very much is unable to renew her PIN/revalidate for obvs reasons! not work a shift ….

 

[raspberryjuice]

Well I thought that too, but there hasn’t been a significant increase in the number of votes on this poll compared to the last, so I don’t think it’s like new people coming in who haven’t been following the trial skewing the results.
I’ve also been reading around and I think I’ve been too quick to write off the people saying she’s innocent as just a small group of nutty CTists, I don’t think that’s the case anymore. I’ve seen a lot of posts recently where it’s clear that people have been following the trial closely, weighing up the evidence as we have done here and are just simply not coming to the same conclusion as us about her guilt. Or for whatever reasons they think she is guilty but feel that the prosecution has not provided enough evidence for a conviction.

It concerns me because all BM has to do is provide reasonable doubt that what the prosecutions expert witnesses are saying is what happened and it’s over. I don’t doubt that he could find some to do that. The defense has only had 1 day in court so far and already it seems that people are swaying away from guilty. To me that suggests that a lot of people’s minds are not fully set either way and have so far not been convinced by the medical evidence put forward. We have to wait for the cross examinations, but I think if she can hold it together through that then there’s every chance that she will get off unfortunately.

The vote numbers are probably the same, but this thread has been up just over 24hrs whereas the last thread where we had a G/NG poll was up for 12 days so much longer for people to find and vote.

I do think the jury will have differing views though and won’t be a unanimous guilty. The evidence can be interpreted in different ways in the way it’s been reported. I think we just have to trust that they’ve heard an awful lot more evidence than us, they’ve seen how she comes across and how she reacts to evidence in court.

The cross examination will be very interesting and settle a lot of minds I think. I think she will trip herself up.

 

[Okgolightly]

I don’t think foul play has been proven by any stretch. I find it really difficult to believe she just chopped and changed her method for no apparent reason and was still able to barely leave a trace, I think some of what they allege surely couldn’t have been initially missed. The insulin is a great example tbh, because as I’ve said before they had the same evidence back then and they addressed the situation one way or another at that time. They definitely didn’t think anybody deliberately harmed that child, just given the setting (hospital constantly monitoring the victims) and amount of charges I really would expect a little bit more in terms of medical evidence

I want to be fair and respond eloquently and I know everyone forms their own opinion…but after 6 months and the things we have heard it baffles me you can confidently say foul play hasn’t been proven by any stretch. I just…I’m sorry but no.

 

[sophiavictoria]

Bit random, sorry, but this is just what's on my mind - the way Lucy behaves reminds me of an extreme form of 'grief porn'. By overstepping with the parents of the deceased babies, watching them as they grieved and overstaying her welcome, stalking their Facebook pages to find posts about them etc. I feel as though she had some sort of obsession with watching them grieve and being involved with that. 'Grief porn' has been described as 'fascination with other people's disasters and a sentimentalism that is out of place', she reminds me of some sort or voyeur.

 

[Deeznutslol]

The vote numbers are probably the same, but this thread has been up just over 24hrs whereas the last thread where we had a G/NG poll was up for 12 days so much longer for people to find and vote.

I do think the jury will have differing views though and won’t be a unanimous guilty. The evidence can be interpreted in different ways in the way it’s been reported. I think we just have to trust that they’ve heard an awful lot more evidence than us, they’ve seen how she comes across and how she reacts to evidence in court.

The cross examination will be very interesting and settle a lot of minds I think. I think she will trip herself up.

Yeah you’re right, it makes far more sense to make the comparison when the thread closes really. I suppose it’s also polls I’ve seen in other places where people are having discussions which have consistently suggested that there’s a much larger split between G/NG compared to here.
I think she’ll trip herself up too tbf, so far I think she has come off better than I expected her too, but I think the prosecution will probably run rings around her with the questions they ask.