Lucy Letby case #28

[Pulltheotherone]

After 3 hrs sleep last night I have been to tired to post so big catch up tonight.
So my takeaway from today - I suspect BM not massively enamoured with Letby on the stand but that’s what we have. He’s got to make her look as good as he can so ease in gently with an hour on the stand and then an ickle breaky wakey to compose herself. Tears obviously but all for herself. Who gives a duck that she was arrested at 6am in her pyjamas ( notice her dad staying with her not her mum and dad - she’s a daddies girl for sure ) or that she’s been in 4 prisons ( Bronzefield and Styal - what could the others be ? ) probably because someone has got wind of who she is and has been spirited off in the night as they usually do. Bless poor letby as it takes 90 mins each way to get back to prison ( M56 a witch at that time ) She’s obligatory dressed in black of course for dramatic effect.
She spouts Word salad and deflections. Contradictions and lies all the way through. I get that she’s fighting for her life here but she seems contrite and unmoved by the allegations. She seems childlike to me - who has a picture aged 25 of Snow White on the wall ? I don’t believe she and Doc “ just friends “ he just binned her when he realised what she was and don’t get me started on the shredder !
I cannot WAIT for the prosecution to cross examine her. She will be weeping then.

 

[Whazgoinin]

That’s a bit different, doctors have to write formal reflections on any serious incidents they’re involved in. Bawa Garba did this into her online portfolio that’s maintained by the royal college, those reflections were used in the case.

LL’s written it into her diary and we’ve not heard anything about any actual reflections.

I'm a bit behind so this may have been mentioned but nurses have to revalidate every three years. The process was introduced in 2015, LL must have completed this to maintain her registration. Part of this process is to submit reflections from the last three years. I'm intrigued as to what she may have reflected on....

 

[gmf21]

I don’t see how she could ever go back to nursing.
She surely can’t have current registration, or if she has it’ll lapse any second, how could you do enough practice hours in prison?

if she’s found NG I doubt she’d get accepted onto a Return to Practice so her NMC pin is toast whatever.

Rebecca Leighton was struck off over them finding tramadol in her house, LL had handover sheets and from what we’ve heard her documentation at work left quite a bit to be desired. If she tries to go back in I think COCH have probably already done what the NHS do to whistleblowers and gone through everything she’s ever done, found all the errors and so they’d fitness to practice her and find her wanting.

it would be weird to want to go back after this anyway wouldn’t it?

 

[MmmB777]

I don’t see how she could ever go back to nursing.
She surely can’t have current registration, or if she has it’ll lapse any second, how could you do enough practice hours in prison?

if she’s found NG I doubt she’d get accepted onto a Return to Practice so her NMC pin is toast whatever.

Rebecca Leighton was struck off over them finding tramadol in her house, LL had handover sheets and from what we’ve heard her documentation at work left quite a bit to be desired. If she tries to go back in I think COCH have probably already done what the NHS do to whistleblowers and gone through everything she’s ever done, found all the errors and so they’d fitness to practice her and find her wanting.

it would be weird to want to go back after this anyway wouldn’t it?

Strange isn’t it how somebody so concerned that people thought she was evil (oh she’s changed that story now) because she possibly made mistakes with babies care, felt the police were hot on her tail even in July 2016 (oops that’s changed now too) still managed to have masses of medical records that she shouldn’t have had and knew she’d get sacked for having? And kept a note tucked into her diary explaining that she did it on purpose. But that’s because she writes everything down.. yet there’s no comprehensively thoughtful written stuff like the blue note about trying to get a different job at AP, none that read sensibly about how she’s innocent, her disbelief at everything, about specific things she felt she did or didn’t do.
I see the last thing BM did yesterday was imply how terribly hard it is to remember everything and in police interview it was so hard too. But she was really confident with her timeline of that year that she’d created which wasn’t hugely long before police interview? She’d gone through everything and thought they’d look silly cos they’d have “nothing on her”. Why wasn’t she obsessing with that then

 

[DellaC]

If she gets off and goes back to nursing I am selling up and shipping out! I'm going to go to bloody Virginia with @pissedandsad and this country can piss off.

But I really do have faith in our justice system it may be flawed but I think they'll reach the right verdict. They've just got to.

 

[Lonette]

Agreed, she’s done enough to be struck off, even without (very sadly) killing babies.
Then again, here’s the tale of a Scottish nurse who was convicted of murdering a patient by injecting insulin, won an appeal on a technicality, was reinstated to the register and returned to nursing.
A ‘dream scenario’ that even LL would find unlikely.

Jessie McTavish - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So often now I am just at a total loss for words when it comes to stuff like this. Good God!

 

[Morning_Star]

Letby says, for the various searches, they were people "on my mind" at that moment.

Why were those parents on your mind quite so much then Lucy - like parents of E&F?

She did social media searches on the parents two days after Child E’s death (Aug 6), and on August 23, September 14, October 5, November 5, December 7, and even on December 25. The prosecution say there were further searches in January 2016.

At 11.26pm on Xmas day, really?

Also noticed something that didn't add up. In her police interview for E&F she thought she may have searched for them as she wanted to know how baby F was doing. [In November 2020, she was asked why she had searched for the parents of Child E and F. She said she thought it might be to see how Child F was doing.]

But for the first search on Aug 6, the parents and baby F were still in the unit (they left on Aug 10) - so why did she need to search for them or to see how baby was doing, they were right there with her...

Wow. Well spotted. Baby F was still in hospital when she was stalking his parents on FB to supposedly check on how he’s doing!

Also, BM trying to argue these FB searches were random. But let’s look at those dates:

3 August - Baby E (Baby F’s twin) is attacked
4 August - Baby E dies
5 August - Baby F is attacked
23 August - LL searches FB for parents of E&F on this day & all the days below
14 September - 1 month & 10 days after Baby E died
5 October - 2 months after Baby E died & F was attached
5 November - 3 months after Baby E died & F was attached
7 December - 4 months after Baby E died & F was attached
25 December - Xmas Day

So she searches for the parents monthly, almost to the day she killed one of their baby twins & attacked the other, for 4 months in a row, and then again on Xmas day, and this is supposed to be an innocent random search?

 

[coffeeandwine]

After 3 hrs sleep last night I have been to tired to post so big catch up tonight.
So my takeaway from today - I suspect BM not massively enamoured with Letby on the stand but that’s what we have. He’s got to make her look as good as he can so ease in gently with an hour on the stand and then an ickle breaky wakey to compose herself. Tears obviously but all for herself. Who gives a duck that she was arrested at 6am in her pyjamas ( notice her dad staying with her not her mum and dad - she’s a daddies girl for sure ) or that she’s been in 4 prisons ( Bronzefield and Styal - what could the others be ? ) probably because someone has got wind of who she is and has been spirited off in the night as they usually do. Bless poor letby as it takes 90 mins each way to get back to prison ( M56 a witch at that time ) She’s obligatory dressed in black of course for dramatic effect.
She spouts Word salad and deflections. Contradictions and lies all the way through. I get that she’s fighting for her life here but she seems contrite and unmoved by the allegations. She seems childlike to me - who has a picture aged 25 of Snow White on the wall ? I don’t believe she and Doc “ just friends “ he just binned her when he realised what she was and don’t get me started on the shredder !
I cannot WAIT for the prosecution to cross examine her. She will be weeping then.

Your take on BM is mine too: I think he would have been quite happy to have his medical experts and try to plant the seeds of doubt in the jurors' minds that all those deaths were down to her/the cause of death stated. I think he would have been quite happy for LL not to take the stand but she has so he has to make the best of it and the best way to do that is really hammer the 'nice Lucy' narrative. If no one's buying it that's not his fault.

 

[November2019]

The comment made to her father tidying up her bedroom. I wondered the relevance. Had a thought. Do you think prosecution might say, or call him as witness in which he will say he had a tidy up in her bedroom, moved bags under her bed etc? I’m not sure how it works though if when arrested the house essentially became a crime scene so locked down, but I wondered then how her dad had been able to make her bed??

 

[AllieBee]

I don’t see how she could ever go back to nursing.
She surely can’t have current registration, or if she has it’ll lapse any second, how could you do enough practice hours in prison?

if she’s found NG I doubt she’d get accepted onto a Return to Practice so her NMC pin is toast whatever.

Rebecca Leighton was struck off over them finding tramadol in her house, LL had handover sheets and from what we’ve heard her documentation at work left quite a bit to be desired. If she tries to go back in I think COCH have probably already done what the NHS do to whistleblowers and gone through everything she’s ever done, found all the errors and so they’d fitness to practice her and find her wanting.

it would be weird to want to go back after this anyway wouldn’t it?

Shes on an NMC suspension order atm. Its only interim rather than a permanent striking off order but would assume they are awaiting the outcome.

 

[Tofino]

The comment made to her father tidying up her bedroom. I wondered the relevance. Had a thought. Do you think prosecution might say, or call him as witness in which he will say he had a tidy up in her bedroom, moved bags under her bed etc? I’m not sure how it works though if when arrested the house essentially became a crime scene so locked down, but I wondered then how her dad had been able to make her bed??

I wondered the relevance of them reporting that but because the police had photos with her bed unmade I think they probably did the house search first and he was allowed to do it afterwards.

maybe it was just an explanation why the bed was made in that photo when the original ones weren’t.

I’d hate the idea of my dad making my bed though!!

Would they really have not allowed her to get dressed before taking her to be questioned?

 

[Potatopotaato]

I actually wonder is letting her testify BMs way of giving her enough rope to hang herself with, let's face it losing a high profile case like this isn't the worst career dent when she's surely guilty AF anyway!

 

[DellaC]

Wow. Well spotted. Baby F was still in hospital when she was stalking his parents on FB to supposedly check on how he’s doing!

Also, BM trying to argue these FB searches were random. But let’s look at those dates:

3 August - Baby E (Baby F’s twin) is attacked
4 August - Baby E dies
5 August - Baby F is attacked
23 August - LL searches FB for parents of E&F on this day & all the days below
14 September - 1 month & 10 days after Baby E died
5 October - 2 months after Baby E died & F was attached
5 November - 3 months after Baby E died & F was attached
7 December - 4 months after Baby E died & F was attached
25 December - Xmas Day

So she searches for the parents monthly, almost to the day she killed one of their baby twins & attacked the other, for 4 months in a row, and then again on Xmas day, and this is supposed to be an innocent random search?

Right. So please PLEASE can we stop trying to normalise these searches and relate them to anything we do? Having a nosey on FB and falling down a rabbit hole, accidentally liking your exes pic or stalking the fella from Tesco cos you wanna ravish him is absolutely not the same as what Letby did.

(I've put a little love heart because I feel a bit guilty about getting ratty but I'm only one coffee in)

 

[DoseofReality]

pretty sure ive caught up on everything now but what is the signifcance of the bedroom and garage pics? why did they take and show them?

BM is using them to paint a picture of "nice Lucy" with her Sweet Dreams bed covers and Teddy bears in her bed, the pictures of family and her god children the cards from them saying she's the best god mother, the leave sparkles wherever you go signs and Snow White figures and the infamous Boofles diary. As well as her being a bit of a hoarder (although she's not that bad). And how hardworking she is to have got that house.

I hope the prosecution ask why she never redecorated the nursery? She had plenty of time to not working such long shifts any more and allegedly not socialising.

I wondered the relevance of them reporting that but because the police had photos with her bed unmade I think they probably did the house search first and he was allowed to do it afterwards.

maybe it was just an explanation why the bed was made in that photo when the original ones weren’t.

I’d hate the idea of my dad making my bed though!!

Would they really have not allowed her to get dressed before taking her to be questioned?

Yes, I think they reported that she cried seeing a photo her room after the police had searched it.

 

[November2019]

I wondered the relevance of them reporting that but because the police had photos with her bed unmade I think they probably did the house search first and he was allowed to do it afterwards.

maybe it was just an explanation why the bed was made in that photo when the original ones weren’t.

I’d hate the idea of my dad making my bed though!!

Would they really have not allowed her to get dressed before taking her to be questioned?

I agree. As a grown woman my dad making my bed would feel odd. Yeah, I thought that re being in her PJs, I guess they just made her leave immediately

 

[StatusWoe]

BM is using them to paint a picture of "nice Lucy" with her Sweet Dreams bed covers and Teddy bears in her bed, the pictures of family and her god children the cards from them saying she's the best god mother, the leave sparkles wherever you go signs and Snow White figures and the infamous Boofles diary

It's not working very well. Comes across as creepy instead. Sweet Dreams? Teddy bears? Snow white? You're an adult woman, Lucy! If guilty, she'll be the world's drippiest serial killer.

 

[MmmB777]

Right. So please PLEASE can we stop trying to normalise these searches and relate them to anything we do? Having a nosey on FB and falling down a rabbit hole, accidentally liking your exes pic or stalking the fella from Tesco cos you wanna ravish him is absolutely not the same as what Letby did.

(I've put a little love heart because I feel a bit guilty about getting ratty but I'm only one coffee in)

Can we add, it’s really easy to take handovers home in your pocket therefore having 257 that span a really long time, moving them house with you more than once, claiming not knowing what to do with them after being a nurse for years, forgetting you had a shredder despite it being and the only thing in the room and filing yet more handover sheets… checks notes.. in the bleeping shredder box. Ain’t the same 🩷

 

[veevee04]

I really hope there are some jurors with medical or nursing backgrounds.

I just don't get what the point of putting LL on the stand has been? She hasn't offered any groundbreaking explanations for what we've already discovered, and if anything has made it worse (which surely will only get more so when the pros get on to her). It's a huge risk for no gain, which makes me think she's gone against BM advice.

Probably wouldn't be a good thing to secure a guilty verdict. I think she's guilty because of the medical evidence not the circumstantial. I've taken handover sheets accidentally home normally crumpled in a bag I've also googled a couple of patients , relating to crimes they have done. They change their names by deed poll (criminals do this a lot) so I looked up the old name. I'm definitely not a pyscho killer just curious HCPs could relate to some of it , I think the focusing on FB searches and handover sheets is weakening the case. She's a freak ok but many people are doesn't make them a killer.

The medical testimony and she was the only one there and the baby collapses stopped when she left the unit. This is what they need to focus on. They need to stop focusing so much on FB searches and handover sheets if there's any hcps on the jury.
---
Reading the reddit it's split almost 50/50 on whether there's enough evidence . The incidents stopped after she left the unit but also the unit was downgraded to less poorly babies which logically would mean baby deaths went down. I think the balance of probabilities she did it but it's so tricky.

 

[slingo16]

Hey what are your thoughts now after hearing the full prosecution and some of the defense? I remember you were one of the few who remained firmly on the fence throughout

Hey… yeah so they didn’t convince me, I feel like we missed/not being told a hell of a lot of stuff though if I’m honest. So just based on what we’ve had reported I’d have say go all the way not guilty at this point, if I had to put my life on it I’d say she didn’t do it, but again I feel like we’re missing loads of information so I don’t think my opinion in particularly informed

 

[AllieBee]

Probably wouldn't be a good thing to secure a guilty verdict. I think she's guilty because of the medical evidence not the circumstantial. I've taken handover sheets accidentally home normally crumpled in a bag I've also googled a couple of patients , relating to crimes they have done. They change their names by deed poll (criminals do this a lot) so I looked up the old name. I'm definitely not a pyscho killer just curious HCPs could relate to some of it , I think the focusing on FB searches and handover sheets is weakening the case. She's a freak ok but many people are doesn't make them a killer.

The medical testimony and she was the only one there and the baby collapses stopped when she left the unit. This is what they need to focus on. They need to stop focusing so much on FB searches and handover sheets if there's any hcps on the jury.
---
Reading the reddit it's split almost 50/50 on whether there's enough evidence . The incidents stopped after she left the unit but also the unit was downgraded to less poorly babies which logically would mean baby deaths went down. I think the balance of probabilities she did it but it's so tricky.

I think that possibly the medical evidence is so strong that defence is just trying to defend her by using the handover sheets/Facebook etc as its hard for him to ask her questions about the babies knowing she will most likely drop herself in it. He's trying hard to paint her as a slightly weird but harmless nurse who loved her job, maybe a girl who was a bit daft but hasn't done anything wrong? And she has been able to prepare her answers for this bit, being put on the spot by cross exam will be the telling part. My gut is she won't cry under cross exam unless she realises she's made an almighty blunder and is trying to gain some sympathy.