Lucy Letby case #28

[avabella]

Right I’m beginning to feel maybe I’m no normal - no one else found themselves balls deep in your pals exes cousins sisters neighbours holiday photos from 2002 and wondered if they enjoyed Lanzarote?

 

[MmmB777]

Probably wouldn't be a good thing to secure a guilty verdict. I think she's guilty because of the medical evidence not the circumstantial. I've taken handover sheets accidentally home normally crumpled in a bag I've also googled a couple of patients , relating to crimes they have done. They change their names by deed poll (criminals do this a lot) so I looked up the old name. I'm definitely not a pyscho killer just curious HCPs could relate to some of it , I think the focusing on FB searches and handover sheets is weakening the case. She's a freak ok but many people are doesn't make them a killer.

The medical testimony and she was the only one there and the baby collapses stopped when she left the unit. This is what they need to focus on. They need to stop focusing so much on FB searches and handover sheets if there's any hcps on the jury.
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Reading the reddit it's split almost 50/50 on whether there's enough evidence . The incidents stopped after she left the unit but also the unit was downgraded to less poorly babies which logically would mean baby deaths went down. I think the balance of probabilities she did it but it's so tricky.

There is so much evidence. It’s taken 6 months for the prosecution. None of the babies were expected to die (I’d only exclude poor baby K possibly) or have life threatening problems out of nowhere.
There are mountains of records to show they were on upward trends with health, that their stats, gasses obs were all ok - they all have to be wrong. Mountains of evidence from witnesses at the hosp ranging from parents, consultants, medics from different hospitals, all explaining that the responses to resus were insane, they’ve never seen things like it before or since, they were shocked, their babies went repeatedly from stable to deaths door, lots of the time it’s when they’ve just decided to go home or get food. Every single one was a shock and unexpected. They have compelling forensic evidence of large amounts of air. Where it’s there in veins, she has just accessed veins. There’s a large bubble of air by baby D’s catheter. There is a line of air down the spine to the rectum. Air comparable with car crashes and overwhelming infection. Where babies were fed by Letby, their stomachs and bowels are inflated like balloons. CPAP doesn’t kill 33 week old 4lb babies on low setting after a couple of days. It doesn’t happen. Or there would be dead babies up and down the country. Prem babies life expectancy would be horrendous.
A lot of the babies had an over 90% chance of survival and would still have been treated at CoCH after the downgrade. So then we’re into possibility vs probability. Even if you want to believe that (and it’s not an insult it’s a fact that if you think Letby is innocent it’s all chance) this is pure coincidence even related to Letby working overtime, you surely have to accept that this all down to her bad luck is really really slim. Her colleagues found it shocking it was all happening to her. She didn’t seem to worry until the very end.
I have seen absolutely nobody explain the triplets deaths? Or what conceivable innocent scenario there is for the insulin? Even if you’d like to say
Letby herself incompetently gave insulin at a lethal dose, inappropriately and without a prescription… this isn’t just negligence, she asks for constant updates about the baby’s hypo all day and night. Nobody did that by accident. It’s not possible and it’s not claimed by defence. The next dose was higher. Someone wanted to finish the job. If you think it could have been the shift leader, who is still a senior neonatal lead, quite frankly that’s on a par with swastika gardens imo!
You’re totally right about the sheets and the Facebook searches, they’re far more easy to explain away although personally I absolutely cannot! Especially when these things are incredibly common in cases of healthcare serial killers.
I find it totally mind boggling that someone could be more compelled by Letby’s waterworks and her saying it’s just normal for her to search people and just had no idea she had hundreds of illegal docs and was just so so upset when she tucked her I’m evil note into her diary.. than all the evidence we’ve heard that these babies were killed.
I would really like to know.. if people are able to accept that these babies were killed or harmed by air embolism, or even if there was a hypothetical case of babies being killed by air embolism, what evidence would you expect to see that is not in this case?
- fleeting embolism rashes
- pale and unusual mottling
- unusual and inexplicable air at PM
- pain, screaming, signs of discomfort
- breathing and chest wall moving but heart stopping
- strange responses to resus - as if something has passed through and begin to breathe again.
-poor outcomes, death, brain damage
- sudden deterioration
- no soft signs of infection, on antibiotics, recovering
- prominent veins
- one person having accessed circulation or been found alone with the patient before the event.
- one person frequently around the collapses

 

[elloelloello]

I haven’t caught up with the whole thread yet but I’ve just got off the tube in Covent Garden and I’d like whoever was sat next to me on the train to show yourself! We were both catching up on this thread on tattle!
If your brunette in a cream jacket that got off at lec sq pls show yourself! I’m the stunning ginger blonde girl next to you!
Sorry for being a nosy slag and staring at your phone but I can’t help myself! 🥲

 

[Ohnoshebettadont]

BBC posting this by the court artist made me lol The judge giving Tattle energy

 

[F1Grid]

Lucy only became qualified to look after intensive care babies in March/April 2015.

There’s the trigger.

 

[Tofino]

I actually find this response unusual. It sounds too prepared -what would an innocent nurse say - but she gets it wrong.

It doesn’t matter if you are a nurse or not, no normal person would ever want to hurt a baby.

 

[MmmB777]

Bet the jury are thrilled to hear the judge mention Letby’s long day when they’ve given up over half a year of their lives to hear about baby deaths and listen to traumatic details and watch parents crying.

 

[DellaC]

It's really shitty to see people expressing their opinions and people responding with laughing reactions or implying that they don't understand or can't read the wiki. Especially when people may not have posted for a while. I really don't understand why people take it so personally that someone has a different interpretation of the evidence.

I remain unsure for lots of reasons, I hope after following for so long I can fall on G/NG by the end of the trial but either way I'm happy to accept the jury's verdict as correct, given that they have heard so much more than we have.

I 100% will not be told by you or anyone else where I can put a smiley face. I love a smile face

When someone says a person accused of murdering multiple babies can't be guilty because they like cats, they look nice or have been set up by the hospital I will laugh but not because I take it personally because I find it ridiculous.

Yesterday there was an influx of goaders, those who don't care or even follow the case but popped on to cause drama and they succeeded.

One person actually came on, doesn't follow any more threads, doesn't contribute but clearly reads everything and left a ridiculously shitty comment that was meant to cause trouble. So I left a laughing emoji and pressed the ignore button, they got their response but they won't get another.

Today is a new day and I am going to rise above those fishing and goading, I'm just going to ignore.

I genuinely do not give a toss if people are on the fence, I admire it and I respect that choice completely. But I do give a toss about people coming in trying to create drama in what is a fantastic community full of all kinds of weird and wonderful people with varying backgrounds and a wealth of knowledge.

 

[F1Grid]

My overall opinion is G, because:

1. The two babies who were poisoned with insulin are undeniably foul play.
2. I believe both of those babies were murdered by the same person, because I think it’s far more likely that there’s one murderer on the unit than there are two.
3. There are only two nurses on for both of those shifts, LL and BS. LL was in the room with those babies, and BS was not.
4. LL is also on for multiple other collapses of well babies, like G and D and I. BS was not.
5. LL has lied in obvious ways in police interviews, such as the shredder, and not knowing about air embolus. These seem inconsequential, but it throws doubt on her account of everything for me.
6. LL has written a note where she said she killed those babies on purpose. I can buy that she’d write she’s killed those babies while in a spiral, but I can’t buy her writing that she did it on purpose.
7. LL is simultaneously the most experienced nurse on the ward (able to tell a baby is deteriorating just from its feet in low lighting), and someone who is out of their depth caring for babies with intensive care needs depending on which baby you ask her about.
8. LL was seen looking at a monitor with a baby’s (who had been stable mere minutes before) sats dropping, and not doing anything about it. That baby’s tube and feeding tube were all of a sudden dislodged.

Cant say why she did it, but these things are undeniable to me.

 

[OldBlondie]

How has this thread gone full circle? I actually can’t get my head round being back to she’s a scapegoat, she doesn’t look the type, Fb searches are normal etc I really don’t have the patience at this point, after there’s been six full months of prosecution evidence some of us are just repeating the same things, so before I say something that I shouldn’t and get myself banned, I’m out until at least Friday. Literally @MmmB777 wrote one of the best posts I’ve seen covering all these points and backing up her points, and still people are saying things like they’ve not seen any evidence . I just can’t honestly can’t. @Tofino sorry I thought you were only joking about me asking Dan, glad you’ve got an answer from him now though.

I cannot wait for prosecution to rip her to shreds on the stand, they’ll expose her for the liar she is. Maybe actually I’ll just wait til then before posting again, due to there only being two days this and next week, I can’t believe it could be weeks yet before they get their turn to bring her down. Really if you add up her total defence time it’s only going to last a few weeks compared to 6 whole months for prosecution, also telling!! And to finish, I’ve no fear she’ll be found NG, the ones on here that have followed trials before called it right about her taking the stand, she’s digging her own grave literally and I can’t wait to see the evil bitch fall In it
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Oh and I forgot to put this on the end, I really don’t get the whole she looks nice she can’t have done it, this is the real LL, evil bitch:

 

[MmmB777]

Sorry still laughing at “I sometimes took handover sheets home”. 257 times later…
In interview she said
“No. Oh I might take a handover home accidentally in my pocket” and she wouldn’t know how to get rid of them. But put it in a folder instead. And boxes marked keep. Honestly hope the pros wipe the floor with this utter bullshit.

 

[Tofino]

Tends to fizzle out when you get arrested for baby murders I find. Even more so than redeployment which is nearly as bad.
View attachment 2142938

so he was still in touch with her after the first arrest then? God I would LOVE to know what he thinks now. I also want unrestricted access to every text message they sent between 2016-2018. Even if it has zero relevance to the trial

 

[Tofino]

Big tidy up and update on the main wiki page.

the interviews section was so long I have put some sub categories. Same with the agreed facts on the last day.

I’ve started updating today’s reporting but had enough now but it’s right at the bottom of the page. Tempted to move it to the top though

links to live reporting for CS / BBC / Sky are there and also where all the other live reporting links are.

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I know this will have been discussed before but why is Dr no name not named? Loads of other colleagues have been named that have given evidence so why is no name anonymous?

He’s not the only staff member who has been anonymous but for him I think it’s definitely because of his close relationship with her. Personally I’m absolutely convinced he was married or in a relationship. We know for fact he had kids!

 

[Lucyxxxx]

Last I heard the cats were in counselling and weekly AA meetings. Smudge is in talks to sell his story to the Daily Mail.

 

[DellaC]

Fuck it, I'm gonna get my violin out of storage and get myself to court. Someone needs to play a sorrowful tune for this self absorbed narcissist!


Boooohoooo poooor meeeee, wonddeerrful meee. FUCK OFF!

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

Of course she likes Ellie Goulding, of fucking course. Didn't think she could get any more beige. How wrong I was!

 

[MmmB777]

I don’t think changing methods is a good way to avoid detection. I mean from air to insulin to trauma as a murder method as a means of not getting caught is a ludicrous decision and just can’t be the case imo. I really don’t think she has the level of intelligence needed to commit these crimes, she’s too weird and impulsive to not slip up somewhere, I also would have expected some internet search history to be relevant. If she’s dumb enough to kill babies and search for their parents on Facebook she’s not above some sort of incriminating internet search,

I just feel like the prosecution kind of want it both ways a little bit. In one breath she’s so calculated and cunning she’s changing methods, forging notes and all that. but in another she’s also stupid enough to triple the death rate of the ward, in the first month she causes a years worth of deaths all whilst she’s on shift? It just seems ridiculous to me. They also want to say she attacked sick babies to avoid detection and exploited their individual health issues but then there are “perfectly healthy” babies that die in the case too, so it just seems a little bit like they’re making it fit whenever it suits them

with all the other cases you’ve mentioned I’m not familiar with them all but as a general rule I’d say serial murder trials must produce some of the most compelling evidence, most serial murder trials are pretty cut and dry. When the evidence starts it becomes undeniably obvious that they’ve done whatever is alleged. I personally don’t know of any serial killer trials that get this deep and they’re still a fair argument for both sides, like I’ve said ultimately Id need a little bit more before I locked someone up for life

Do you think it is likely babies days from going home are unhealthy and go into cardiac arrest?
Do you think it is likely that 32+ week babies die extremely suddenly? They gulp air to death.
Do you think it’s likely babies die from a mild/moderate infection they were recovering from without soft signs of an infection in the immediate run up to their death?
Do you think babies that have mild haemophilia that hasn’t caused them problems before or since are unhealthy?
Do you think it’s likely for a baby born extremely premature to overcome the first few weeks of their life, be progressing to almost having immunisations or going home, to suddenly be near death at all or repeatedly when treated by one nurse in particular?
Do you think it’s likely for a pink, 10/10 score, slightly preterm baby to die and for its brother to die the next day and it be inconclusive or put down to prematurity?
I could go on and on.
How likely can it all be unrelated to a poisoner at work on the ward? And then how likely can it be that she is always there for these unlikely, unexpected and sudden events?
it is possible isn’t it but it’s highly highly unlikely. It’s not probable. And it is then even more unlikely to say that one person is there for all of that and it is just by chance. That people other than her were at the time absolutely concerned and saying these things did not make sense medically. This one person always there, that is also strange, has also been noted doing strange things several times by multiple witnesses (not caring for her designated babies but hanging around death, telling someone else off for alerting docs to get help, being around alarms not going, being around babies that are paralysed by drugs but pull their tubes out, again could go on and on).
Every baby in the unit needed specialist care, this isn’t the same as being unhealthy or at deaths door. They are vulnerable and they require medicalised care in order to survive and flourish and that care can’t be given at home. Some of it can be trusted to parents when they can be there but other things are medicalised and require close monitoring because it’s little babies they’re dealing with. Nobody is saying they’re not vulnerable. They’re even vulnerable to sudden problems- but again almost always these will have medical explanations like heart defects or awful congenital conditions. In a level 2 unit, the vast majority of these babies are not very sick because they’d be transferred out or will get to go home once a certain weight/age/had checks.
You’re talking about Letby as if she has rational thinking and you can’t do that. I agree with @Tofino there are a huge amount of reasons she could have done what she did and it’s not evidence of innocence that she used varying methods! We don’t know that her search history won’t be revealed at some point but that BM hasn’t had it thrown out. We do know she was reading a book that contained grief of a parent losing a baby in a medicalised way- if she was searching stories like that on Google would it be suspicious? Hand on heart, I would guess everyone that explains away all of the prosecution evidence we’ve heard, would explain away google searches too. Maybe she was doing research for her job.. maybe she looked at this as part of trauma therapy.. maybe someone else used the computer 🫣

Honestly mate I really respect you actually just saying what you think and why. But the ten other deaths thing is not a thing. 17 babies in the case not 17 deaths. And don’t @ me with that little cropped table with the numbers that don’t even work for the babies we’ve heard about again pal cos I’ve seen it enough times if there were ten more deaths involving medical negligence we’d have heard about them.
If I were you and interested in this enough to be here, I would familiarise yourself with other cases of health care murder. You’re absolutely right, working with notes and retrospection makes an already difficult case, even more complex. The management have a lot to answer for for letting this drag on so long prior to involving police. These cases are hard to prove. But we have seen here almost picture perfect case of how it is proved beyond reasonable doubt. there are a lot more than retrospective notes, there are time stamped medical records, X-rays. They are cross referencing things multiple ways, phone records, computer usage, door data. It isn’t all wrong.
There wasn’t seven years gone by when internal investigations found no reason these babies died in the manner they did. The investigations were on going to the point police got involved. You bring up the original PMs but they are sketchy as fuck every medical murder victim is explained normally until the murderer is caught.
No serial medical murders are not cut and dry at all they’re complex to prove and that is largely because their victims are vulnerable for obvious reasons. They are often caught because they kill a less vulnerable person. Old lady after heart surgery cardiac arresting and dying.. not going to raise eyebrows. Young man after routine surgery.. going to begin to. Little old ladies dying.. meh normal. Little old ladies dying after having just been to the shops and chatting with family and then having a house call from Dr Death.. yeah bit odd. Two healthy triplets in two days. Honestly some of the cases of health care serial killers are baffling but it’s happened many times!
We’re not going to convince each other anyways. I respect your honesty in what you think.

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

I’ve been in the guilty camp since the beginning of this trial when Ben said “there sits a woman who says this isn’t her fault” not “there sits a woman who is innocent and wrongly accused” I don’t know why that has always stuck with me, yesterday she contradicted herself many times and gave different answers to those in her police interviews. Ben trying to paint the picture of poor little Lucy didn’t cast any doubt in my mind, in fact it cemented her guilt even more. Talking about her journey to and from court etc is just fluffing, and trying to distract the jury away from what’s important. I’m willing to be proven wrong and have my mind changed but for now I’m not being swayed.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

She got redeployed to another prison, she'll never marry or have kids now!

HMP Styal HATE. HMP Peterborough Bastards. HMP Drake Hall I'll never have friends. All liars except for Ben Myers xoxo Nick is a prick.

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

I want to know who the 2 friends are.

Smudge and Tiggy