Lucy Letby Case #2

[crumpets2]

She was in completely different rooms to the one was she supposed to be working in on multiple occasions though. Maybe she felt superior and thought she was in charge of the entire unit?

Perhaps. It’s hard to say without hearing a different view of why she was in the other rooms.

 

[acsunderland]

Yeah it's the mottled skin/rashes for me... if it is an unusual occurrence, what did they think it was? Numerous times?

Yeah I’d like to know what they thought medically caused that

 

[MrsDimSum]

Yeah it's the mottled skin/rashes for me... if it is an unusual occurrence, what did they think it was? Numerous times?

had it been explained what caused these? If she’s used air, milk and insulin. What is the common thing that’s caused the skin mottling

 

[Cosytidy]

I can’t understand how these deaths continued for over a year. So far the deaths and collapses have happened very close together and they all had concerning rashes but nothing was said? No staff meetings or staff room chatter?

This is what I’m querying-how did it go on for so long? I don’t believe she was fitted up by staff but surely this could only have happened in a tit show of a unit?
for me they need to prove each death/assault was deliberate but if it is so clearly a deliberate act why weren’t actions taken to investigate & prevent further injury. The hospital could have shut the unit, called the police in, put CCTV in etc but none of that happened for at least a year.
So either it wasn’t so clearly a series of deliberate acts, which means it’s tricky to state that in court now, or the hospital were horrendously slow to identify the pattern of potential deliberate harm.

 

[stardust1]

Thanks for answering. I was also in NICU at a hospital in Newcastle! Many many years ago, of course. I'm deliberately avoiding talking about this case with my mum because I know it's such a sensitive issue when you've been in that situation. I hope all the parents on this thread are okay. It's a very upsetting topic.

It hits extremely hard after being in the NICU and I have been hugging him tighter. The poor parents wether she is guilty or not guilty something has gone wrong.. extremely wrong at that. I’ve mentioned before about him being given too much morphine causing respiratory arrest but what sticks in my mind is how quick they were to pull the buzzer, how quick they were to get him ventilated, the support we were offered afterwards, the investigation into what wen’t wrong and how closely they looked after him. To me it seems there was so many people who just let this all go on for so long and so many things people found ‘unusual’ but still did nothing. I read the hospital was pretty piss poor to start with that probably doesn’t help.

 

[MammaChar]

Just catching up on todays thread, haven’t caught all the way up yet and have yet to catch the live updates. I think, if she is guilty, she was either looking them up on Facebook to possibly get a kick out of seeing the pain she’d caused (especially viewing the profile on Christmas Day), or maybe she was keeping an eye out to see if any of the families thought there was something odd with their babies death/were going to pursue a complaint with the hospital? Hope that makes sense I’ve just sat down after a 15 hour day.

 

[iLoveNectarines]

I just don't understand any of it.

How can they say that the babies have been killed with insulin and air, but it wasn't picked up in a post mortem at the time as this would have obviously would screamed something was going on?

Its not like they could dig up the babies and do tests on them now as it's already been said on here that these 2 methods are hard to prove as they are quickly absorbed.

I just can't see what their evidence for this method of killing will be at all.

 

[acsunderland]

Thanks for answering. I was also in NICU at a hospital in Newcastle! Many many years ago, of course. I'm deliberately avoiding talking about this case with my mum because I know it's such a sensitive issue when you've been in that situation. I hope all the parents on this thread are okay. It's a very upsetting topic.



Another aspect of this that absolutely devastates me is how those babies were so close to being fine and able to go home. Like, you'll hear that one baby seemed to recover only to get worse again. It's tragic enough for a premature baby to die from natural causes, but if they were harmed when they were otherwise on the road to recovery it's just horrendous. Imagine being a parent and going over it in your head, that if they'd had a different nurse or been at a different hospital, they would still be with you. There are no words.



That's another thing I thought was strange. I can't imagine police would dig up your garden for no reason. What were they looking for? It's not like they had a missing person to find.

If the babies had died due to hospital failings/negligence, why not keep the investigation focused on that? Why would you assume a murderer's at work? That's a much rarer occurence than some kind of medical malpractice, so for them to zero in on Lucy in particular? It just seems odd.

It’ll all come out in this trial I believe

 

[candyland_]

I read in an old article that staff were making poor decisions and were reluctant to seek advice from other colleagues.

 

[Milktray]

Unlikely yes. Just not much context why she was always there for babies who weren’t under her care. We’re the other nurses newly qualified, not as much training etc. It is unlikely, and one hell of a coincidence and bad luck IF she is innocent. And I say IF. I am a senior nurse and I will always be there making sure my junior colleagues are okay, I respond to alarms and respond to patients being unwell if they are my responsibility or not.

A report suggested that agency staff were often called in to cover short fall.

 

[Blondetech]

Ok, want to add my two pence worth as I’ve had a idea rattling in my head as to a motive. When something as awful as this happens we always question why. To look at she looks like she couldn’t possibly Kill babies.

I have worked in the nhs for 10 years, 5 in paeds. My Mum is a very experienced neonatal nurse and midwife. I also spent several weeks in neonatal icu with my own child.

I wonder if Lucy had/has a ‘god complex’. I heard of this before but can’t remember now where. So NOT ALL but it is common for a baby to need neonatal input due to the mothers behaviour in pregnancy (drinking, smoking, drugs) general neglect. My mum often talks about looking after these babies with so much love and then knowingly discharging them to unfit homes. Social services are involved that kind of thing. I saw it myself many times, families too busy outside smoking, coming in with all their friends showing them the baby without seemingly understanding the seriousness of the situation. Uneducated families unable to properly care for their new baby. Messy family lives, unfit living conditions, I am not being judgemental, it’s just what I and my mother have seen so much with our own eyes. So much more I could say but I’m hoping you get my gist to the sort of thing. Perhaps Lucy was a very Judgemental person?

did Lucy take it upon herself to ‘save’ these babies from a life she deemed unfit? Like a god complex. Researching them on Facebook to see if they were ‘good enough’? Overly attached to these babies and seeing it as her only way to stop them going to live those lives?
Hoping someone understands that waffle and no one takes offence. Just had to get it off my chest

I have thought this too but you have put it far more eloquently then I ever could have.
Thank you for your post.

 

[Rosie878]

I keep thinking of her response to the mother 'trust me I'm a nurse' just seems very over confident talking about extremely poorly and tiny babies. Surely if anyone is going to give that kind of reassurance it would be a consultant. Just an inappropriate remark in the context of NICU when outcomes are unknown and it can be touch and go.
Also I do think parents can have strong gut instincts regarding their children and this should be respected and at least listened to.

 

[Rembrandt68]

What would be interesting would be to know the key words used for internet searches.
I’m also interested in the text to the other nurse about how being in the room with a live baby would support her mental health.

 

[Tofino]

This is what I’m querying-how did it go on for so long? I don’t believe she was fitted up by staff but surely this could only have happened in a tit show of a unit?
for me they need to prove each death/assault was deliberate but if it is so clearly a deliberate act why weren’t actions taken to investigate & prevent further injury. The hospital could have shut the unit, called the police in, put CCTV in etc but none of that happened for at least a year.
So either it wasn’t so clearly a series of deliberate acts, which means it’s tricky to state that in court now, or the hospital were horrendously slow to identify the pattern of potential deliberate harm.

I think this may be where the hospital failures may play a part. Whatever the outcome those babies were failed. Even if Lucy is guilty I hope there is a full inquiry to how a serial killer was able to go so long unnoticed. And if she isn’t a killer then what the hell actually happened.

My initial thoughts, and maybe some HCPs could shed some light on this, is that the prosecution are saying LL was a constant, which means the other staff members for each incident would vary. I’ve no idea how big these teams are. So for example, these first 5 babies, could they have each had a different senior medic respond (not sure what role, excuse my ignorance) so whilst that individual doctor may think something was unusual, they may not be privy at that stage about the other cases so there wouldn’t initially be any concern?

I’m wondering who at the hospital would oversee the whole department and look at all deaths and serious incidents and should be alert to unusual trends?

i don’t mean to belittle the case by this comparison but in my old role as a CS manager, I would review all complaint cases but probably on a monthly basis. It might not be until a few months I could spot a particular trend. Who would be the equivalent in the hospital. And if the hospital had significant failures, then what processes fell short to pick up on these incidents - whether it was Lucy harming them or some other cause.

ETA: I said before the trial started that both a failing hospital and serial killer could exist at the same time. Maybe she knew the hospital weaknesses and thought she could get away with it.

 

[super grateful]

I’d imagine it’s different on an ICU or HDU in neo-natal and I’m sure someone with more medical knowledge than I have will know but when I was on the children’s ward with my baby the monitor alarms were going off constantly when the drips stopped working. Usually if baby rolled over and it was a sound all night and didn’t usually get an immediate response. However I’d like to think this wasn’t the case on these units

You learn the noises. An alarm telling you that the medicine line is kinked or lay on or the medicine is finished etc, but you knowing that medicine is due to finish anyway / isn’t keeping that patient alive and you’re in the middle of something else, that can totally wait. A ventilator alarm or heart rate alarm, which as the poster you replied to points out we set the parameters for every shift, you run to. My biggest hate is “Nurse can you not see my family member is alarming?!” - I always try to reassure relatives by saying if I am crying and running for help, it’s bad. If not and I “ignore” the alarm for a sec, then that’s for a reason and please to trust me. But now I see how hard it is for people to trust Nurses.

 

[crumpets2]

A report suggested that agency staff were often called in to cover short fall.

So a slight argument there could be she was checking in on the agency staff patients? Sometimes, you do get agency you have to keep an extra eye on (not slating, I occasionally agency myself the NHS can’t cope without them). If agency are there a lot, could this explain why no other staff members were there as much as LL? Did she pick up loads of bank?

 

[dustyrhodes]

I think this may be where the hospital failures may play a part. Whatever the outcome those babies were failed. Even if Lucy is guilty I hope there is a full inquiry to how a serial killer was able to go so long unnoticed. And if she isn’t a killer then what the hell actually happened.

My initial thoughts, and maybe some HCPs could shed some light on this, is that the prosecution are saying LL was a constant, which means the other staff members for each incident would vary. I’ve no idea how big these teams are. So for example, these first 5 babies, could they have each had a different senior medic respond (not sure what role, excuse my ignorance) so whilst that individual doctor may think something was unusual, they may not be privy at that stage about the other cases so there wouldn’t initially be any concern?

I’m wondering who at the hospital would oversee the whole department and look at all deaths and serious incidents and should be alert to unusual trends?

i don’t mean to belittle the case by this comparison but in my old role as a CS manager, I would review all complaint cases but probably on a monthly basis. It might not be until a few months I could spot a particular trend. Who would be the equivalent in the hospital. And if the hospital had significant failures, then what processes fell short to pick up on these incidents - whether it was Lucy harming them or some other cause.

ETA: I said before the trial started that both a failing hospital and serial killer could exist at the same time. Maybe she knew the hospital weaknesses and thought she could get away with it.

YES exactly this!

 

[stardust1]

You learn the noises. An alarm telling you that the medicine line is kinked or lay on or the medicine is finished etc, but you knowing that medicine is due to finish anyway / isn’t keeping that patient alive and you’re in the middle of something else, that can totally wait. A ventilator alarm or heart rate alarm, which as the poster you replied to points out we set the parameters for every shift, you run to. My biggest hate is “Nurse can you not see my family member is alarming?!” - I always try to reassure relatives by saying if I am crying and running for help, it’s bad. If not and I “ignore” the alarm for a sec, then that’s for a reason and please to trust me. But now I see how hard it is for people to trust Nurses.

I can hear the different alarms ingrained into my brain when reading this post

 

[Cosytidy]

https://media.gosh.nhs.uk/documents/Post_mortem_examinations_F0609_A5_col_FINAL_Mar17.pdf

This gives details of the different post mortem examinations. So unless the coroner directed a forensic/home office post mortem the family can decline.

 

[hello from me]

A few pages back so I have not caught up yet. But could she have been using a fake profile account on fb. And even maybe made friends with the parents. Maybe this is how she was able to view the profiles.