I'm finding this thread the best - only? - place to get any idea of what is going on. Thanks to all for their expertise, opinions, debates.
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Parents had requested hospital transfer, jury told - BBC News
Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of trying to kill a twin boy by giving him insulin, a court hears.
www.bbc.co.uk
Really nothing new in today’s bbc article. Basically the same as what Dan has tweeted today.
Lucy Letby trial: Colleague denies adding anything to baby’s feed bag
A NURSE who was working with Lucy Letby when a baby was allegedly poisoned has denied adding anything to his feed bag.
And here is Chester standard. Again not much new but some mention of the second bag again.
The court has heard his glucose levels remained low on the day shift of August 5 even after the intravenous line, and a connected bag containing nutrients, needed to be replaced after swelling to Child F’s leg.
Child F’s blood glucose rose to safe levels later that evening after the nutrients were stopped and extra sugar was given independently, the court was told.
Oh confirmation of live reporting tomorrow, yay!
The trial will continue on Tuesday, November 29.
The Standard will be providing live updates throughout the day.
I have always thought how blessed people are to have twins. I wonder if she was jealous of their good fortune which is why she particularly targeted them.
I’m a twin but I don’t know how blessed my mother felt. She didn’t know she was having twins until after my twin sister was born, during a home delivery, and the midwife said ‘there’s another one in there’ and I came out, bum first, 20 minutes later. We both weighed 6lb 6oz.
That was a long, long time ago!
Yeah if someone had said that to me after my baby was born I wouldn't have felt blessed! What a trooper!
Can you imagine what it must have been like in Victorian times, before antibiotics and vaccines were available? Something like 50% of children never made it past 5 years old, and if you look around any old churchyard you will find headstones listing a succession of children and babies succumbing to an infectious disease. I just don't know how they coped, it doesn't bear thinking about.
Love this story!
It’s been a while so I have a few questions excuse me if they’re stupid
Are the blood glucose levels the only thing that points to the first bag having insulin in?
we’ve heard the reason for insulin not being mixed into the TPN is because it would bind and stick to the plastic so it would be impossible to give a consistent dose, but we’re being told two or more bags were poisoned but managed to give a pretty consistent does over 17hours which doesn’t make sense or am I missing something with this part?
also it says they calculated a dose of 0.56ml/hr or something like that so would that be like 9ml she’d have injected into the bags in total? And is that a lot?
Are the blood glucose levels the only thing that points to the first bag having insulin in?
we’ve heard the reason for insulin not being mixed into the TPN is because it would bind and stick to the plastic so it would be impossible to give a consistent dose, but we’re being told two or more bags were poisoned but managed to give a pretty consistent does over 17hours which doesn’t make sense or am I missing something with this part?
also it says they calculated a dose of 0.56ml/hr or something like that so would that be like 9ml she’d have injected into the bags in total? And is that a lot?
Yes it’s awful isn’t itCan you imagine what it must have been like in Victorian times, before antibiotics and vaccines were available? Something like 50% of children never made it past 5 years old, and if you look around any old churchyard you will find headstones listing a succession of children and babies succumbing to an infectious disease. I just don't know how they coped, it doesn't bear thinking about.
and all the people that ended up in the workhouses and their poor babies died and suffered, just horrendous Modern medicine is an absolute wonder and we are so lucky in the uk that most survive now.
Even my dad, my aunties & my uncles who were all twins all survived being born in the 50’s & 60’s despite being premature and tiny.
This reminds me of that friends episode “another who will be along in a what now”
I still think in the long run your mum was blessed although at first it was probably hard work for her and you had a sister and friend to grow up with.
This is just my understanding from what we’ve read.
They have determined it was deliberate poisoning because of the seriously high insluin / low peptide values from the blood test. can only have been synthetic insluin.
The blood glucose levels show how long the baby was receiving synthetic insluin for - as it went on for 18ish hours the expert has said it must have been a continuous supply so must have been in the bag (I think a single dose would wear off quickly.
The point you make about the insulin binding to the bag so how could it be consistent is an interesting one which has not been reported on but from my understanding I think that’s because typically the doses are so tiny so if it stuck to the bag they might not get enough? But if she did put a large amount in (although 10ml wouldn’t look a lot ?) I imagine it would be a more consistent supply. The same thing happened to Charles Cullen victims, it was an ongoing poisoning of insulin via a bag.
Professor Hindmarsh explains it better than me
For a skin injection, he says the duration of action [for the insulin] of 4-6 hours would not fit with the 17 hours of hypoglaycaemia. It would require multiple injections.
He says an intravenous route "would be the most likely explanation".
The way to do so would be a bolus of insulin - from testing in endrocrinology, the blood sugar level would fall within 90 minutes, then rise back to normal.
To maintain hypoglycaemia "over a protracted period of time" would require multiple insulin boluses "roughly every two hours".
The second route would be via infusion - "probably the most likely way of achieving the blood glucose effect that we have observed".
The infusion would be "continuous", using the bags available, and "fit nicely" with the time course of events
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You know what as well now I'm looking at it differently little things are popping into my head. My youngest was a very high risk pregnancy. I was told before the birth he would be in neo natal for at least a few weeks, I had my own room before the birth and he had a crash team with equipment waiting for him when he was born as they said he would have breathing difficulties. I had a haemorrhage during the birth and he was 4lb 10oz, he needed NO assistance whatsoever and was straight on the boc boc like a trooper. The next day we were released. He had those blood sugar tests and they told me he had to have 3 successful blood sugar readings in a row to be discharged and to be aware babies never have 3 in a row straight away. Of course my baby had 3 in a row straight away. I've said it before in the thread he does have mild CP (doesn't stop him trashing my house and wreaking havoc though) but my point is little tiny babies are alot more resilient and strong then we give them credit for.
Colleague of Lucy Letby denies adding anything to baby’s feed bag | ITV News
Letby, 32, is said to have tried to murder the premature twin by intentionally giving him insulin on the Countess of Chester Hospital’s neonatal unit. | ITV News Granada
www.itv.com
A little bit more info from today from ITV news, with the designated nurse confirming she did not give baby F any insulin at any point during her shift.
Yes this was my point. there are defo still people, especially on facebook preaching the babies were ill anyway. I’m not sure if it is one of those things that is hard to comprehend if you haven’t experienced it. I have lost count of how many times a nurse must have said to me ‘he will be ok babies bounce back’ which honestly is true.
I hope your son is doing well and you have the right support in place
I also agree with your post yesterday about hindsight because there is a few things with my Son that are now obvious in hindsight but because he had other things wrong with him nurses put it down to that but it actually had nothing to do with it.I think at the time it is very unlikely people assumed there was a murderer on the loose and definitely would have been trying to find valid explanations x
From a legal perspective,
yes, the first bags contamination is based on expert opinion via the glucose levels, I can't offer any insight medically as to what those levels mean as I have no clue aside from knowing they are dangerously low, along with seeing a rise and fall in levels which may align with dextrose administration.
The 5:56 blood test is the solid evidence which relates to the possible second bag.
Prosecutions opening argument mentioned 3 possible avenues of the insulin, contaminated parts, giving sets or secondary bag. They've mentioned them because the professor investigated those avenues during the process of completing his report.
They do seem to have settled on it being a consistent dosage throughout the day, and a secondary bag.
The professor has stated the amout of insulin is the same for each bag if there are two involved, that throws up a whole new set of questions in itself.
Personal opinion- From a Prosecution point of view it would be far easier to discredit a nurse and say the bag wasn't changed rather than, having to factor in the secondary bag into the experts opinion.
Starts entering the area of needing to prove x amount of drugs missing,
the more bags sabotaged= more insulin used, it would tighten up their case nicely to have strong supporting evidence of missing insulin being noted at the time during the stock checks,
would also depend on what mls required and if it could be written off as stock errors?
I can only assume it is actually documented that the bag was changed (although I'd find it easier to believe it hadn't been changed given the hospitals issues).
Tried to calculate the mls required but kept getting confused and giving up, because the bag was scheduled to run for 48hr.
there’s no way insulin has got in those bags at the lab. I’d think tomorrow will clarify this
You're absolutely right and I do think the fact that the victims are premature and/or poorly babies is a big part of why some people were so convinced she must be NG and the victim of a cover-up. The average person is convinced premature babies would have died anyway and I'll admit even I didn't realise how resilient they were until I read around the subject. She reminds me more and more of Harold Shipman every day: so many people convinced of his innocence felt that because his victims were old women they were basically at death's door, even though most of them were healthy women with more years ahead.
Thank you he's brilliant. I am having to push for a bespoke pram for him and potentially he could need a wheelchair to get about outdoors but that's a worst case scenario. He's a little terror thoughYes this was my point. there are defo still people, especially on facebook preaching the babies were ill anyway. I’m not sure if it is one of those things that is hard to comprehend if you haven’t experienced it. I have lost count of how many times a nurse must have said to me ‘he will be ok babies bounce back’ which honestly is true.
I hope your son is doing well and you have the right support in place
I think at the time it is very unlikely people assumed there was a murderer on the loose and definitely would have been trying to find valid explanations x
9m is a massive amount of insulin, they come in 10ml vials. Also 9ml is just what the baby would have had until the TPN stopped, there would have been more in the bag overall. Then there's the potential second bag. You'd notice entire vials of insulin going missing surely!
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