Lucy Letby Case #16

[OldBlondie]

Only on Twitter so far, Judith and Mersey hack. Nothing from mark today. Round up of this morning for bbc https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...65B8-11ED-A6BA-D056FC756850&at_medium=custom7

Were there live updates today, can some one point me in the right direction pretty please x

Sorry don’t know why your post and my reply are the wrong way round


That’s Mersey hack
And that’s Judith

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Only on Twitter so far, Judith and Mersey hack. Nothing from mark today. Round up of this morning for bbc https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...65B8-11ED-A6BA-D056FC756850&at_medium=custom7



Sorry don’t know why your post and my reply are the wrong way round

View attachment 1735324That’s Mersey hack

View attachment 1735327And that’s Judith

Thanking you I’ll check it out now x

 

[OldBlondie]

Chester Standard round up for today https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/n...ctor-sorry-lack-baby-post-mortem-examination/

 

[StatusWoe]

One lady Gemma I think her name is drives me mad she will not at all listen to anything apart from if it’s how innocent letby is
I’ve left the Facebook groups so insane the way they think .

I stopped reading Facebook comments a few years ago. The amount of racism & antisemitism was unbelievable, mostly coming from conspiracy nuts and right-wing boomers. On here, there have been points I disagree with but it's fine because you can always see people's thought process. On Facebook there is no thought process. Just 'Room 1 is evil'. No one on Tattle has blamed the collapses on George Soros either, so that's a pleasant change!

which begs the question how NEC could be given as a cause of death when the first diagnostic tool used is the X-ray and it was totally clear.

This is what my previous post was asking. I understand the reasons she didn't push for a PM because the parents' wishes need to be taken into account, but why accept a cause of death that has no evidential basis?

 

[Aberscot]

Chester Standard round up for today https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/n...ctor-sorry-lack-baby-post-mortem-examination/

The court picture from that link is awful, poor police or prison officer doing her job and gets an artist impression of her in the paper She looks bored !

 

[OldBlondie]

I’ve just seen this from Mersey hack, I really hope Mark is back tomorrow or Judith is there. Because the colleague that Mersey names here, that will be there instead of him tomorrow, is also the same colleague that Dan said was his replacement for today with the live updates. But this colleague did no live reporting at all today, just the BBC’s round up. So if no mark or Judith we may have no live reporting at all tomorrow

The court picture from that link is awful, poor police or prison officer doing her job and gets an artist impression of her in the paper She looks bored !

I’ve seen them use the pic on CS today before, she does look bored. But imagine having to sit next to a potential baby murderer, whilst having to hear people such as the parents give their evidence about her. I’d not be able to sit next to her tbf. My favourite sketch of LL is this one:

And purely (just for my own reasons) of thinking that BM is not a nice fella, I was personally hoping for him to be drawn as more of a panto villain than what he was in this one from today:

 

[StatusWoe]

The court picture from that link is awful, poor police or prison officer doing her job and gets an artist impression of her in the paper She looks bored !

They're all awful. It's really funny.

 

[Faith61]

This has really messed with my head today in so many ways
As I've already said, not in the context that she should have thought there was someone harming the babies, more that she seems to be admitting that even at the time NEC "didn't fit", but puts the death down to that anyway and the parents are unaware of this at the time

 

[avabella]

I probably worded it wrong, they are done but unless the coroner has reason to find one necessary (in this case they were evidently content with the doctors decision) then parental permission has to be sought and logistically its challenging and its a layer of distress you don't want to put parents through unless necessary. I agree she should have pushed the coroner, but the only way to have done that would have been to retract her first submission and say nope I'm not sure and it sounds like the symptoms at time of death were consistent with what was listed.



The symptoms and presentations upon death suggested NEC, she's saying having had time to review the X Rays properly and the notes in which the rate of decline doesn't match and so she's now unsure. If she had the whole picture at the time she probably would have challenged it. Do we know she hasn't previously reported it? Of course all doctors should make these decisions when in possession of all of the facts and history, it's not always possible, there literally isn't always time; welcome to the NHS.

That's the thing though, she's said that even at the time there was nothing present in the x-ray and that the presentation in the lead up didn't suggest that. But still signed it off and let the family think that's what it was? Their heads must be absolutely gone

 

[OldBlondie]

This has really messed with my head today in so many ways
As I've already said, not in the context that she should have thought there was someone harming the babies, more that she seems to be admitting that even at the time NEC "didn't fit", but puts the death down to that anyway and the parents are unaware of this at the time

For me I agree, that it’s pretty horrifying to see that the doctor just put down a cause of death that didn’t actually fit. However, I also completely understand why the parents wouldn’t have particularly wanted one, and why the Dr didn’t want to upset/distress them anymore.

From today, I also can see why a lot on the fence or leaning to NG, will see even more reason that the hospital failings are to blame.

But for me it’s actually strengthened the prosecutions case, because the doctor has held her hands up and admitted her (massive) mistake, and actually apologised to the parents. I think this just shows the absolute trust that these parents had in the hospital and the staff. So for me, that just continues to show just how easy it was for LL to abuse that trust, and pray on the hospitals weaknesses.

The no PM also maybe gave her more confidence to carry on. I think if this baby had a PM he would have been one of the stronger evidence wise against LL, so knowing she got away with something as obvious as this one, it made her more cocky, and feel unstoppable. As yet we still have no obvious cause for baby E’s collapse and death. If it was NEC, as on certificate then why did E show no real clinical signs of it this. For me this highlights how all these sudden and unexpected/unexplained collapses/deaths seemed to happen when LL was there. And no obvious other cause why a stable baby would suddenly just collapse right after involvement from LL again. So if NEC wasn’t the cause then what was is the big question? This leads me back to the LL coincidence again.

As awful as it was that the doctor didn’t push for PM, I hope the fact she at least apologised to the parents goes some way to show how sorry she is, and how much she now regrets it. But if LL has done this, we don’t know for sure if the PM would have further stopped LL at that point in time, and even with no PM if LL is guilty then it’s her to blame for E’s death, not this doctor. The hospital is not on trial, LL is. A terrible decision over a PM, was absolutely not the cause of E to die. Yes she should not have recorded it as that when no evidence for it, but that leads back to the question of if it wasn’t nec, what was it? Given that this baby was so stable that he was given a cause of death that seemed the most likely to fit, but didn’t actually fit clinically really at all, reinforces my opinion that it was completely unexplained and they didn’t actually know what else could have caused something as catastrophic as this. So for that part of blame, as in baby E dying, the doctor is not responsible for what happened to E before he died. Imo

I know there’s going to be loads of disagreement with this. It’s purely my opinion based on my interpretation of what I’ve heard today. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, just giving my thoughts

 

[candyland_]

Why didn’t that consultant get another opinion before stating the cause of death?

 

[MmmB777]

This has really messed with my head today in so many ways
As I've already said, not in the context that she should have thought there was someone harming the babies, more that she seems to be admitting that even at the time NEC "didn't fit", but puts the death down to that anyway and the parents are unaware of this at the time

Would there be little other explanation for the bleeding other than something extremely rare or deliberate harm though, the latter I imagine did not cross her mind at all. In the Chester round up- it does sound like she doubted at the time and that the parents were upset so she didn’t push for a PM. It’s a huge mistake either way. I thought BM did his job well today however, I was intrigued by some of his questions written in more detail in the Chester.

Ben Myers KC, defending, said: “This is precisely the type of situation where a post-mortem would have been very helpful, isn’t it?” - If he’s going to state and have experts that will say baby E did indeed die from NEC why would he say that really.

Mr Myers said: “But at the time you were questioning NEC and at the time you didn’t have an obvious explanation?” - does it help defence case to point out there isn’t an obvious explanation to the baby’s death?! I would have thought he will later say that baby E obviously did indeed have NEC but perhaps not if this is how he is questioning.
So if not NEC then what will it be from defence? Is it another relying on ‘we cannot know what we don’t know’ thing..so just no PM so no answer. I personally think Dr. Evans will make easy work of disputing NEC. Will definitely be interested to hear the medical experts from both sides.

 

[StatusWoe]

Omg. I don't even know what to say about that one. Could they have made her look any more shifty?! The protruding forehead, the menacing eyes, the scrunched up face. Jeez. This artist was camp guilty

That's the thing though, she's said that even at the time there was nothing present in the x-ray and that the presentation in the lead up didn't suggest that. But still signed it off and let the family think that's what it was? Their heads must be absolutely gone

And if she didn't believe it was NEC but agreed to avoid a PM, that raises the question, what did she think was the cause of death?

 

[Faith61]

For me I agree, that it’s pretty horrifying to see that the doctor just put down a cause of death that didn’t actually fit. However, I also completely understand why the parents wouldn’t have particularly wanted one, and why the Dr didn’t want to upset/distress them anymore.

From today, I also can see why a lot on the fence or leaning to NG, will see even more reason that the hospital failings are to blame.

But for me it’s actually strengthened the prosecutions case, because the doctor has held her hands up and admitted her (massive) mistake, and actually apologised to the parents. I think this just shows the absolute trust that these parents had in the hospital and the staff. So for me, that just continues to show just how easy it was for LL to abuse that trust, and pray on the hospitals weaknesses.

The no PM also maybe gave her more confidence to carry on. I think if this baby had a PM he would have been one of the stronger evidence wise against LL, so knowing she got away with something as obvious as this one, it made her more cocky, and feel unstoppable. As yet we still have no obvious cause for baby E’s collapse and death. If it was NEC, as on certificate then why did E show no real clinical signs of it this. For me this highlights how all these sudden and unexpected/unexplained collapses/deaths seemed to happen when LL was there. And no obvious other cause why a stable baby would suddenly just collapse right after involvement from LL again.

I know there’s going to be loads of disagreement with this. It’s purely my opinion based on my interpretation of what I’ve heard today. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, just giving my thoughts

Yes....the parents were informed of the apparent cause of death and obviously had no reason not to accept that
We will never know how they feel now about the whole situation.
Sadly I agree that many now may have more "reason" to blame hospital failings, which nobody can deny were on going.
I say it's messed with my head cos when you see it in black and white that, even at the time, she was saying NEC didn't fit.....I'm questioning if LL is guilty then could/would the other babies have been spared...I don't know, as she may have carried on anyway....
I need to switch off cos it really has thrown me right off track!!
Those poor babies and parents need answers

 

[OldBlondie]

Would there be little other explanation for the bleeding other than something extremely rare or deliberate harm though, the latter I imagine did not cross her mind at all. In the Chester round up- it does sound like she doubted at the time and that the parents were upset so she didn’t push for a PM. It’s a huge mistake either way. I thought BM did his job well today however, I was intrigued by some of his questions written in more detail in the Chester.

Ben Myers KC, defending, said: “This is precisely the type of situation where a post-mortem would have been very helpful, isn’t it?” - If he’s going to state and have experts that will say baby E did indeed die from NEC why would he say that really.

Mr Myers said: “But at the time you were questioning NEC and at the time you didn’t have an obvious explanation?” - does it help defence case to point out there isn’t an obvious explanation to the baby’s death?! I would have thought he will later say that baby E obviously did indeed have NEC but perhaps not if this is how he is questioning.
So if not NEC then what will it be from defence? Is it another relying on ‘we cannot know what we don’t know’ thing..so just no PM so no answer. I personally think Dr. Evans will make easy work of disputing NEC. Will definitely be interested to hear the medical experts from both sides.

You’ve literally typed out exactly the same thoughts I just have had, only you’ve probably set it out much clearer than me, and explained it far better than I did

 

[PeninsulaAndOriental]

NEWS FLASH

It gets even better over at Facebook. Myers got the S/N giving evidence today to confirm the pipes were old and dirty.

The Facebook experts think this is him building a case to say the pipes caused infection.

So folks, there we have it: it’s now the PIPES that killed the babies.

It’s on the group managed by Pam with 2.7k members

 

[Faith61]

Would there be little other explanation for the bleeding other than something extremely rare or deliberate harm though, the latter I imagine did not cross her mind at all. In the Chester round up- it does sound like she doubted at the time and that the parents were upset so she didn’t push for a PM. It’s a huge mistake either way. I thought BM did his job well today however, I was intrigued by some of his questions written in more detail in the Chester.

Ben Myers KC, defending, said: “This is precisely the type of situation where a post-mortem would have been very helpful, isn’t it?” - If he’s going to state and have experts that will say baby E did indeed die from NEC why would he say that really.

Mr Myers said: “But at the time you were questioning NEC and at the time you didn’t have an obvious explanation?” - does it help defence case to point out there isn’t an obvious explanation to the baby’s death?! I would have thought he will later say that baby E obviously did indeed have NEC but perhaps not if this is how he is questioning.
So if not NEC then what will it be from defence? Is it another relying on ‘we cannot know what we don’t know’ thing..so just no PM so no answer. I personally think Dr. Evans will make easy work of disputing NEC. Will definitely be interested to hear the medical experts from both sides.

Was just thinking...I really need to hear from those two... Dr Evans and Bohin.....today has been a bad day

 

[OldBlondie]

Yes....the parents were informed of the apparent cause of death and obviously had no reason not to accept that
We will never know how they feel now about the whole situation.
Sadly I agree that many now may have more "reason" to blame hospital failings, which nobody can deny were on going.
I say it's messed with my head cos when you see it in black and white that, even at the time, she was saying NEC didn't fit.....I'm questioning if LL is guilty then could/would the other babies have been spared...I don't know, as she may have carried on anyway....
I need to switch off cos it really has thrown me right off track!!
Those poor babies and parents need answers

I really understand all of that, it’s so horrible thinking how those poor parents are after this week so far in court. If this is how we are feeling, then it’s horrendous thinking how they must be, and having to do it all again when F is up next.

It is also awful to think that a PM may have stopped LL sooner (if G), but even if the pm had been done and come back the same as A even, unexplained, then I still don’t think at that stage it would have been enough to stop her. More cautious maybe though yes, I personally feel that after D she was getting far more calculating in what she was doing, as she was starting to really cover her tracks, changing methods like she did for F and G. So I personally think she would have just been more devious if there had been a PM. It’s impossible to know though really. I think a PM would have really helped the prosecution’s case though as medically E’s death can still not really be explained from his clinical notes, and observations, tests etc at the time.


Either way though I think everyone agrees (IF G ofc) that she should never been able to get as far as Q, it’s absolutely terrible that she did. I just think the abuse of trust here for me is really particularly awful. The whole thing is awful, but I really feel for these parents this week on so many levels

Why didn’t that consultant get another opinion before stating the cause of death?

Is it because the consultant is the highest level of doctor in the unit, so she would be the one that would have been consulted by others if they hadn’t been sure? But with her being senior level she wouldn’t have been questioned by others on it, and she was one to speak to coroner? But yes if she’d got a second opinion, there may have been PM done afterall

NEWS FLASH

It gets even better over at Facebook. Myers got the S/N giving evidence today to confirm the pipes were old and dirty.

The Facebook experts think this is him building a case to say the pipes caused infection.

So folks, there we have it: it’s now the PIPES that killed the babies.

It’s on the group managed by Pam with 2.7k members

I feel like the FB experts causes could be the new Fella on this thread

 

[avabella]

NEWS FLASH

It gets even better over at Facebook. Myers got the S/N giving evidence today to confirm the pipes were old and dirty.

The Facebook experts think this is him building a case to say the pipes caused infection.

So folks, there we have it: it’s now the PIPES that killed the babies.

It’s on the group managed by Pam with 2.7k members

I'm not sure why the constant stream of Facebook updates? If I wanted to know what was going on in the groups, I'd join them?

 

[Faith61]

I really understand all of that, it’s so horrible thinking how those poor parents are after this week so far in court. If this is how we are feeling, then it’s horrendous thinking how they must be, and having to do it all again when F is up next.

It is also awful to think that a PM may have stopped LL sooner (if G), but even if the pm had been done and come back the same as A even, unexplained, then I still don’t think at that stage it would have been enough to stop her. More cautious maybe though yes, I personally feel that after D she was getting far more calculating in what she was doing, as she was starting to really cover her tracks, changing methods like she did for F and G. So I personally think she would have just been more devious if there had been a PM. It’s impossible to know though really. I think a PM would have really helped the prosecution’s case though as medically E’s death can still not really be explained from her clinical notes, and observations, tests etc at the time.


Either way though I think everyone agrees (IF G ofc) that she should never been able to get as far as Q, it’s absolutely terrible that she did. I just think the abuse of trust here for me is really particularly awful. The whole thing is awful, but I really feel for these parents this week on so many levels

The babies and parents are all I can think about right now, that they get the answers they need and deserve, just hope the medical experts can help sort this mess out, cos though I agree with you on all you've said, I fear many won't and could be steered to NG after today's revelations