Lucy Letby Case #16

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

For me I agree, that it’s pretty horrifying to see that the doctor just put down a cause of death that didn’t actually fit. However, I also completely understand why the parents wouldn’t have particularly wanted one, and why the Dr didn’t want to upset/distress them anymore.

From today, I also can see why a lot on the fence or leaning to NG, will see even more reason that the hospital failings are to blame.

But for me it’s actually strengthened the prosecutions case, because the doctor has held her hands up and admitted her (massive) mistake, and actually apologised to the parents. I think this just shows the absolute trust that these parents had in the hospital and the staff. So for me, that just continues to show just how easy it was for LL to abuse that trust, and pray on the hospitals weaknesses.

The no PM also maybe gave her more confidence to carry on. I think if this baby had a PM he would have been one of the stronger evidence wise against LL, so knowing she got away with something as obvious as this one, it made her more cocky, and feel unstoppable. As yet we still have no obvious cause for baby E’s collapse and death. If it was NEC, as on certificate then why did E show no real clinical signs of it this. For me this highlights how all these sudden and unexpected/unexplained collapses/deaths seemed to happen when LL was there. And no obvious other cause why a stable baby would suddenly just collapse right after involvement from LL again. So if NEC wasn’t the cause then what was is the big question? This leads me back to the LL coincidence again.

As awful as it was that the doctor didn’t push for PM, I hope the fact she at least apologised to the parents goes some way to show how sorry she is, and how much she now regrets it. But if LL has done this, we don’t know for sure if the PM would have further stopped LL at that point in time, and even with no PM if LL is guilty then it’s her to blame for E’s death, not this doctor. The hospital is not on trial, LL is. A terrible decision over a PM, was absolutely not the cause of E to die. Yes she should not have recorded it as that when no evidence for it, but that leads back to the question of if it wasn’t nec, what was it? Given that this baby was so stable that he was given a cause of death that seemed the most likely to fit, but didn’t actually fit clinically really at all, reinforces my opinion that it was completely unexplained and they didn’t actually know what else could have caused something as catastrophic as this. So for that part of blame, as in baby E dying, the doctor is not responsible for what happened to E before he died. Imo

I know there’s going to be loads of disagreement with this. It’s purely my opinion based on my interpretation of what I’ve heard today. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, just giving my thoughts

I feel the same, I think the incompetence of the Dr's in how they handled the situation is a separate case from this.

Just because their incompetence allowed Letby to continue killing doesn't somehow absolve her of the guilt of having killed them.

At this moment in time, with all the mud slinging from defence, they haven't created reasonable doubt for me.

They have simply highlighted the other issues that coexisted at the same time as her killing sprees, in what feels like to me anyway, hopes of distracting the jury.

 

[Faith61]

Why didn’t that consultant get another opinion before stating the cause of death?

She clearly at the time didn't think she needed one, she's the consultant and usually what consultant says, goes. The coroner obviously accepted her diagnosis of NEC ..so didn't question it either

 

[OldBlondie]

The babies and parents are all I can think about right now, that they get the answers they need and deserve, just hope the medical experts can help sort this mess out, cos though I agree with you on all you've said, I fear many won't and could be steered to NG after today's revelations

Yes I can see why a lot will have more reason to blame the hospital. There is no doubt there were many faults in that unit, but I still think the doctor not doing a PM (terrible decision) does not change how E died, yes it may have changed other things, but no PM makes no difference to E’s death happening. It happened regardless of PM, and if it wasn’t NEC (which there were no real signs of) then what else could have caused such a catastrophic collapse? I guess this is where the medical experts will come in, as they will be crucial in explaining what happened. I guess then, it’s whether or not their version will be believed or not, with no PM to confirm

 

[Faith61]

That's the thing though, she's said that even at the time there was nothing present in the x-ray and that the presentation in the lead up didn't suggest that. But still signed it off and let the family think that's what it was? Their heads must be absolutely gone

My point too....

Yes I can see why a lot will have more reason to blame the hospital. There is no doubt there were many faults in that unit, but I still think the doctor not doing a PM (terrible decision) does not change how E died, yes it may have changed other things, but no PM makes no difference to E’s death happening. It happened regardless of PM, and if it wasn’t NEC (which there were no real signs of) then what else could have caused such a catastrophic collapse? I guess this is where the medical experts will come in, as they will be crucial in explaining what happened. I guess then, it’s whether or not their version will be believed or not, with no PM to confirm

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well.....I'm just saying..in general her decision was a bad one and could have changed the whole direction of this case one way or another had a p.m been done.....she's not just admitting in hindsight that it was wrong..she's even saying that at the time it didn't fit with NEC, but still writes it off as that.. as i say it's messed with my head so I'm not explaining myself very well!.

 

[OldBlondie]

I feel the same, I think the incompetence of the Dr's in how they handled the situation is a separate case from this.

Just because their incompetence allowed Letby to continue killing doesn't somehow absolve her of the guilt of having killed them.

At this moment in time, with all the mud slinging from defence, they haven't created reasonable doubt for me.

They have simply highlighted the other issues that coexisted at the same time as her killing sprees, in what feels like to me anyway, hopes of distracting the jury.

Yes you seem to have the same thoughts as me. I think the jury actually seeing the witnesses will help them decide on some things too, I think body language is so important. When they saw the doctor today apologising directly to the parents, it may have shaped their views that this was just a terrible decision, that this doctor really regrets, but owns up to her mistake. And that this awful decision has no bearing on the actual death of E, which was down to LL. Ofc this is just my thoughts, have absolutely no idea what the jury is thinking. But I do think body language is important when trying to decide which version of events you believe. And ofc we are not getting full details of what happened today, just what’s being reported

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

She clearly at the time didn't think she needed one, she's the consultant and usually what consultant says, goes. The coroner obviously accepted her diagnosis of NEC ..so didn't question it either

If only she had the insight to the other recent high number of deaths on the ward
I bet she would have pushed for a PM.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Yes you seem to have the same thoughts as me. I think the jury actually seeing the witnesses will help them decide on some things too, I think body language is so important. When they saw the doctor today apologising directly to the parents, it may have shaped their views that this was just a terrible decision, that this doctor really regrets, but owns up to her mistake. And that this awful decision has no bearing on the actual death of E, which was down to LL. Ofc this is just my thoughts, have absolutely no idea what the jury is thinking. But I do think body language is important when trying to decide which version of events you believe. And ofc we are not getting full details of what happened today, just what’s being reported

I hope so too, the apology felt sincere to me
The further this trial goes on the more I think it's unfair that Letby isn't made answer questions in front of the jury like everyone else.

 

[OldBlondie]

My point too....


I don't think I'm explaining myself very well.....I'm just saying..in general her decision was a bad one and could have changed the whole direction of this case one way or another had a p.m been done.....she's not just admitting in hindsight that it was wrong..she's even saying that at the time it didn't fit with NEC, but still writes it off as that.. as i say it's messed with my head so I'm not explaining myself very well!.

No I do know what you mean, I think. Are you making the point of why would she just say it’s NEC when it didn’t fit? And yes that decision could have changed so many things, at the time and now perhaps. And you feel you could do with hearing from the medical experts so they can confirm your thoughts on what has happened?

 

[avabella]

I hope so too, the apology felt sincere to me
The further this trial goes on the more I think it's unfair that Letby isn't made answer questions in front of the jury like everyone else.

My head is so messed by it, to me it feels a bit like 'oh sh!t, when I look back on this I totally messed it up, but I'll apologise but hey there's someone else in the firing line anyway' (I've simplified that but hopefully you get the gist)

And she may well answer questions on the stand.

 

[OldBlondie]

I hope so too, the apology felt sincere to me
The further this trial goes on the more I think it's unfair that Letby isn't made answer questions in front of the jury like everyone else.

Yes everyone that hasn’t actually killed any of the babies, has been thoroughly scrutinised and their care called into question. But yet the actual murderer (potentially ofc) might not have to be put through the same questioning and scrutiny. I didn’t think there’s a chance she’d take the stand, but after some of last nights posts it seems there’s a chance she may well afterall

 

[candyland_]

We still have to get all the way to Baby Q so things were still overlooked on many occasions.

I can only hope that the doctors and nurses have learnt from this and changed how they practice in regards to any concerns.

 

[MmmB777]

My head is so messed by it, to me it feels a bit like 'oh sh!t, when I look back on this I totally messed it up, but I'll apologise but hey there's someone else in the firing line anyway' (I've simplified that but hopefully you get the gist)

And she may well answer questions on the stand.

But her mistake wouldn’t ever have caused her to be in the firing line for what Letby is because the PM decision didn’t cause the baby’s death. She’s put herself in the firing line for potentially letting a serial murderer continue though. The baby’s parents must feel all sorts today. They may also be thinking if only we had pushed too which would be so awful.

 

[OldBlondie]

NEWS FLASH

It gets even better over at Facebook. Myers got the S/N giving evidence today to confirm the pipes were old and dirty.

The Facebook experts think this is him building a case to say the pipes caused infection.

So folks, there we have it: it’s now the PIPES that killed the babies.

It’s on the group managed by Pam with 2.7k members

Thank you I don’t have FB, so unable to see any of these groups. Some of the excuses are beyond bizarre/ridiculous, and I can now see why so many posters on here have mentioned Fb groups recently though

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

And she may well answer questions on the stand.

I hope she does, it's hard to tell when we are hearing 3rd hand what she said etc. If she could stand/sit up there like everyone else and answer questions put to her on the hop, like everyone else has had to, I think it could clear a lot of things up.

The main ones I want her answer is why didn't she find all these deaths suspicious? Why didn't she raise concerns? Why did she downplay her colleagues concerns?

If she's innocent, with her being a band 6 highly qualified nurse, it doesn't make sense to me that she didn’t do any of those things.

 

[Daisydunn15]

I honestly can't get my head around a consultant identifying a cause of death that they're not convinced by and then telling the parents that there's 'little point' in a PM and it wouldn't tell them much. Absolutely awful.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

I’m not excusing the Consultant but Baby A’s death, at pm, was determined to be unacertained but still not suspicious.
Even an unacertained death would not necessarily be actioned further if it did not appear to be suspicious.

 

[MmmB777]

We still have to get all the way to Baby Q so things were still overlooked on many occasions.

I can only hope that the doctors and nurses have learnt from this and changed how they practice in regards to any concerns.

I would say though too that if you do have a murderer manipulating things in your midst, I would expect mistakes and the wrong calls on occasions. Not ones that cause the death but ones afterwards or on treatment because they didn’t understand what was going on.

 

[Faith61]

No I do know what you mean, I think. Are you making the point of why would she just say it’s NEC when it didn’t fit? And yes that decision could have changed so many things, at the time and now perhaps. And you feel you could do with hearing from the medical experts so they can confirm your thoughts on what has happened?

In a word....yes

 

[avabella]

But her mistake wouldn’t ever have caused her to be in the firing line for what Letby is because the PM decision didn’t cause the baby’s death. She’s put herself in the firing line for potentially letting a serial murderer continue though. The baby’s parents must feel all sorts today. They may also be thinking if only we had pushed too which would be so awful.

No, of course not - but what I mean is; if she took the stand and stood by her original decision she knows it would get ripped. So, she goes up there and admits she was wrong in hindsight and ‘apologises’, and somehow it’s ok? I just don’t buy it. She knew at the time it wasn’t right, but she still let someone look those parents in the eyes and tell them their baby had died of NEC when (she now thinks) they hadn’t. That’s not credible in my eyes, I have no idea what do believe now.

 

[just_nicole]

I honestly can't get my head around a consultant identifying a cause of death that they're not convinced by and then telling the parents that there's 'little point' in a PM and it wouldn't tell them much. Absolutely awful.

If I remember rightly, the father questioned the need for a PM and along with being informed there was little point in having one, they were told it would/could halt the transfer of the other child to Liverpool Women's.

Maybe that's a genuine thing, but I don't see how moving one twin would be impacted by having a PM completed on child E? Just baffling.