Israeli-Palestinian Conflict #6

[Blueblue123]

This is exactly what I meant and I don't see how that wasn't obvious.

To that point though, despite being described as a counter protest (which could've been taken to mean pro Israel seeing as it was a pro Palestine march), it was well understood that the protestors today never represented that.

If people wanted to lazily conflate right wing extremism to being pro Israel, they could have done it today. Especially as some of the pro Israel lot seemed to support the counter protest on social media.

But for the most part, it's been understood that they were troublemakers.

 

[Shimmering]

Ironically Tommy Robinson was actually in my local area a few weeks ago with his cronies, protesting outside a hotel which houses asylum seekers and waving Israeli flags. Massive ones. I drove past it when taking my children to an activity.

What I took from that situation was that Tommy Robinson and his ilk were taking advantage of the situation to legitimise their acts of hate, not that everyone who supports Israel is far right. Shockingly some of us are capable of nuance and critical thinking

 

[Dogmuck]

Where did they admit this?

This is a good source that can’t be said to be antisemitic hate news- horses mouth

https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/

ETA- obviously they’ve framed it as, no evidence was taken because they have so many bodies to ID, but well ya know, 40 beheaded babies etc

 

[Blueblue123]

Ironically Tommy Robinson was actually in my local area a few weeks ago with his cronies, protesting outside a hotel which houses asylum seekers and waving Israeli flags. Massive ones. I drove past it when taking my children to an activity.

What I took from that situation was that Tommy Robinson and his ilk were taking advantage of the situation to legitimise their acts of hate, not that everyone who supports Israel is far right. Shockingly somme of us are capable of nuance and critical thinking

If anything, some people see through a lot of these right wing lot and acknowledge that their support for Jews is often fuelled by a greater hatred for Muslims.

Once this episode is over they'll be back to doing Nazi salutes and complaining about cultural Marxism. Ironically.

 

[thegirlscout]

They have admitted there is no evidence of rape.

The way you’ve worded this makes it sound like Israel has lied about women being raped. Due to the services being stretched after the attack they didn’t have the capacity to collect evidence of rape and thus it wouldn’t stand up in a court of law.
What frustrates me and makes me angry is that there is eye witness testimony from people who saw their friends and other women getting raped, there is evidence from Zaka who said they found women who had evidently been raped, there is even a video of a woman who has her face burnt off but her underwear is removed and there is blood covering her vagina. But none of that is enough for people to say that rape happened. Rape in war time or during acts of terrorism is hard to prosecute due to the nature of the environment. However we are told to believe women, believe young girls but it seems this doesn’t include believing Israelis and Jews. It makes me so angry that this false narrative is being peddled.
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ETA- obviously they’ve framed it as, no evidence was taken because they have so many bodies to ID, but well ya know, 40 beheaded babies etc

For goodness sake, they never said it was 40 beheaded babies! I feel like I’m shouting into a void here in this thread because every time things mentioned I show how the misinformation happened and yet still people believe this nonsense because they dislike the country it’s coming from.
---

This is a good source that can’t be said to be antisemitic hate news- horses mouth

https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/

ETA- obviously they’ve framed it as, no evidence was taken because they have so many bodies to ID, but well ya know, 40 beheaded babies etc

Did you actually read the article? It didn’t say it didn’t happen but because of the lack of resources it can’t be prosecuted.

 

[Charlotte1993]

Israel’s threat against Lebanon ‘very dangerous’

• View attachment 2566113
  Marwan Bishara

Senior political analyst

Israeli leaders are acting like war criminals. They used to be political criminals but now they’ve become war criminals.

When the Israeli president says there are no innocents in Gaza, all Palestinians hold responsibility for October 7. When the defence minister calls them “human animals” and says he will treat people in Lebanon the same way – basically the Israelis are taking the position that women, children and men can be slaughtered in revenge.

These are war crimes. This is genocide. There is intent and there is action. And it’s very dangerous.

What worries me is because the US has deployed its armada to the east Mediterranean, the Israelis think this is their chance because the Americans are here and if they finish with Gaza, perhaps they can start with Lebanon. It’s dangerous what is going on.


Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/live...as-for-help-as-israel-bombards-gaza-hospitals

My sister and I have been discussing this from the start and Israel has been goading Hezbollah a lot.
We think that their ultimate goal is to steal more land from Lebanon towards their greater Israel objective and also to attack Iran because they are close to becoming nuclear and if that did happen Israel couldn’t play the big chief anymore in the region.
I know under international law countries are unable to retain land stolen but this is Israel we’re discussing and international law isn’t their strong point.

 

[Emotional Support Ferret]

This is a good source that can’t be said to be antisemitic hate news- horses mouth

https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/

ETA- obviously they’ve framed it as, no evidence was taken because they have so many bodies to ID, but well ya know, 40 beheaded babies etc

If the US can provide weapons, they can provide personnel qualified in taking samples which would ensure that the correct people could be held accountable for a genuinely horrific crime.

 

[Charlotte1993]

To that point though, despite being described as a counter protest (which could've been taken to mean pro Israel seeing as it was a pro Palestine march), it was well understood that the protestors today never represented that.

If people wanted to lazily conflate right wing extremism to being pro Israel, they could have done it today. Especially as some of the pro Israel lot seemed to support the counter protest on social media.

But for the most part, it's been understood that they were troublemakers.

Cruella whipped this up to distract from the real event which was one of the biggest marches for the Palestinians in recent times. How dare people make the government look bad and uncaring.

 

[Dooley Doo]

View attachment 2565315

Will Israel be collecting young organ and skin donors while in Gaza.

 

[Emotional Support Ferret]

Spoiler: Discussion about r*pe

People say believe women but they always throw in a subtle dig.
Believe women but was she drinking?
What was she wearing?
Did she say no?
Was she alone?
Was she travelling alone?
Was she travelling abroad?
Did she let her guard down?
Now I’m seeing people on here, online saying that they don’t believe that women were raped in the October 7th Hamas attack even though there is witness accounts, there is accounts from first responders and hell there is even a photo of a dead woman with no underwear and blood over he vagina.
It feels like another subtle dig is believe women unless they are Israeli and Jews.
And this rhetoric and mindset is what helps diminish the stories and voices of women and girls who speak out against rape. But it’s currently socially acceptable to say these things.
It’s like no matter where you’re raped - be it at home, on holiday, in the street, in a war zone, people will do the upmost to discredit you and not believe you.

Really?

 

[Dogmuck]

The way you’ve worded this makes it sound like Israel has lied about women being raped. Due to the services being stretched after the attack they didn’t have the capacity to collect evidence of rape and thus it wouldn’t stand up in a court of law.
What frustrates me and makes me angry is that there is eye witness testimony from people who saw their friends and other women getting raped, there is evidence from Zaka who said they found women who had evidently been raped, there is even a video of a woman who has her face burnt off but her underwear is removed and there is blood covering her vagina. But none of that is enough for people to say that rape happened. Rape in war time or during acts of terrorism is hard to prosecute due to the nature of the environment. However we are told to believe women, believe young girls but it seems this doesn’t include believing Israelis and Jews. It makes me so angry that this false narrative is being peddled.

I think I can start from the point of 40 beheaded babies. Do you admit that they lied about that?

Then there is the burnt baby photo that was proved to be AI imagery. Do you accept that?

Then there is the 1400 killed now 1200.

All of these things came out at the same time as the rape claims. The Israeli government/military are making these claims but we have actually heard testimonies from female captives who say that Hamas treated them respectfully, that actually without doubt many of the deaths were from Israeli military going in gung-ho, we have also seen the video footage of the hostages, the lady who went back and shook hands with the terrorist and then went on to tell the world on live TV in an interview how nicely she was treated.

Where is this evidence? “eye witness testimony from people who saw their friends and other women getting raped, there is evidence from Zaka who said they found women who had evidently been raped, there is even a video of a woman who has her face burnt off but her underwear is removed and there is blood covering her vagina”

Don’t come at me with your guilt tripping “we are supposed to believe women” and nobody believes Israelis or Jews bs to try to close me down! I’m a woman and I used to prosecute rapists for a living. If these crimes did happen and Israel gave a tit about its citizens then it would make damn fkng sure it got samples because I bet you a pound to a penny it’s got a database of every Palestinians DNA and finding them and meeting out justice would not be that hard. But no, rather than asking their allies for help in the mortuaries with forensics etc they asked for $ for bombs and white phosphorus. Rather than recalling some citizens with expert knowledge in forensics they recalled 300,000 soldiers to kill.

When people lie it usually follows that they will lie again and again and it’s pretty damn clear that Israel are A+ liars!

I tell you what frustrates me and makes me angry, 10’s of thousands of innocent civilians being slaughtered, deprived of basic human rights and treated like animals and people like you trying to defend it.

 

[BWGossip]

Don't know if it has already been post but I'm a bit in love with that man (never mind he could be my grandfather )
ETA: The former US ambassador to Israel, and a strong supporter of Israel, tweeted about Netanyahu link to Hamas

 

[Emotional Support Ferret]

Fears for premature babies as intensive care loses power

Tom Bateman
BBC News

The BBC has been sent pictures of at least 20 new-born babies being kept in a surgical theatre at Al-Shifa hospital, as doctors warn they may die.

The neonatal intensive care unit has stopped working due to the lack of electricity, doctors said earlier.

“I’m afraid if we leave these children in this unit in this condition we are allowing them to die… they are premature babies”, said Dr Marwan Abu Saada, head of surgery, in a voice note passed on to the BBC.

The pictures show infants wrapped in blankets and lined up in rows on adult hospital beds. Many of them appear to have tape on their faces suggesting the need for oxygen administration.

Doctors have warned for at least a fortnight that the number of available incubators was being reduced due to the power shortage amid the ongoing Israeli siege.

Dr Abu Saada said the babies need intensive care, life support equipment and artificial respiration.

Earlier, Physicians for Human Rights Israel said two premature infants have already died, with a "real risk" to the lives of 37 others.

As we’ve been reporting, the Israeli army said it would help evacuate babies from Al-Shifa to a “safer” hospital on Sunday, following a request from the hospital administration.

Dr Abu Saada said his understanding was discussions were “open” through the Red Cross but said the bombardment near the hospital meant it was extremely dangerous and there was no other facility in Gaza that could accommodate so many premature infants. He said the hospital instead urgently needs fuel to restore power.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67385263

 

[thegirlscout]

I tell you what frustrates me and makes me angry, 10’s of thousands of innocent civilians being slaughtered, deprived of basic human rights and treated like animals and people like you trying to defend it.

I’ve never defended people being murdered. On here I have said that Israel are out for revenge and that’s not the way to go about things and that they are slaughtering innocent people. I have repeatedly said that the Israeli government should be disbanded and the settlers be removed. In my personal life I have also done things to help Palestinian refugees. So please stop with that nonsense.

 

[Lammington]

Honestly, I think arguing over whether or not there were rapes on October 7th serves no purpose.

Rape as part of asserting power is unfortunately one of the things we consistently see. It would be far more shocking to me if there was no rape either of Israelis in Hamas's attack, or now of Palestinians both in Gaza and West Bank settler violence.
If survivors of violence state either they were raped or they saw others were sexually assaulted, I'm not going to argue with them.

 

[thegirlscout]

Then there is the burnt baby photo that was proved to be AI imagery. Do you accept that?

No I don’t because the posts showing the programme that used AI also couldn’t identify other things such as animals etc.

 

[Emotional Support Ferret]

Don't know if it has already been post but I'm a bit in love with that man (never mind he could be my grandfather )

I admired his genuine kindness.

 

[thegirlscout]

Honestly, I think arguing over whether or not there were rapes on October 7th serves no purpose.

Rape as part of asserting power is unfortunately one of the things we consistently see. It would be far more shocking to me if there was no rape either of Israelis in Hamas's attack, or now of Palestinians both in Gaza and West Bank settler violence.
If survivors of violence state either they were raped or they saw others were sexually assaulted, I'm not going to argue with them.

But people are dismissing rapes which is part of a bigger issue and it further traumatises the victims.
---

Where is this evidence?

Is forensics the only evidence you’ll accept that a rape has been committed?

 

[Lammington]

But people are dismissing rapes which is part of a bigger issue and it further traumatises the victims.

And I'm not down for that. My post wasn't saying you shouldn't respond, I meant that trying to say that people weren't raped is neither logical nor serving a purpose in arguing against what is happening now.

If it's people asserting graphic details for which there is no evidence or claim from the survivors, then I'm not down for that either as it serves to sensationalise and propagandise what people went through.

 

[Charlotte1993]

I think I can start from the point of 40 beheaded babies. Do you admit that they lied about that?

Then there is the burnt baby photo that was proved to be AI imagery. Do you accept that?

Then there is the 1400 killed now 1200.

All of these things came out at the same time as the rape claims. The Israeli government/military are making these claims but we have actually heard testimonies from female captives who say that Hamas treated them respectfully, that actually without doubt many of the deaths were from Israeli military going in gung-ho, we have also seen the video footage of the hostages, the lady who went back and shook hands with the terrorist and then went on to tell the world on live TV in an interview how nicely she was treated.

Where is this evidence? “eye witness testimony from people who saw their friends and other women getting raped, there is evidence from Zaka who said they found women who had evidently been raped, there is even a video of a woman who has her face burnt off but her underwear is removed and there is blood covering her vagina”

Don’t come at me with your guilt tripping “we are supposed to believe women” and nobody believes Israelis or Jews bs to try to close me down! I’m a woman and I used to prosecute rapists for a living. If these crimes did happen and Israel gave a tit about its citizens then it would make damn fkng sure it got samples because I bet you a pound to a penny it’s got a database of every Palestinians DNA and finding them and meeting out justice would not be that hard. But no, rather than asking their allies for help in the mortuaries with forensics etc they asked for $ for bombs and white phosphorus. Rather than recalling some citizens with expert knowledge in forensics they recalled 300,000 soldiers to kill.

When people lie it usually follows that they will lie again and again and it’s pretty damn clear that Israel are A+ liars!

I tell you what frustrates me and makes me angry, 10’s of thousands of innocent civilians being slaughtered, deprived of basic human rights and treated like animals and people like you trying to defend it.

Someone should compile a list of all the lies
The video with wrong time stamps given as evidence of Hamas misfiring at the hospital.
The voice recording later debunked.
The pallywood video that is old and from a drama made in Gaza before the war.
The death figures
Presenting blown out buildings as Hamas’s handy work when it was their own tanks
There is no humanitarian crisis
We haven’t fired at Al Shifa when there are a lot of videos from inside.
We didn’t target civilians leaving Al Shifa again video evidence to the contrary
We don’t bomb hospitals it was Hamas’s fault
We don’t bomb schools Hamas’s fault
We don’t bomb churches Hamas’s fault
We don’t target civilians 11.000 dead
We are supplying water
We are allowing aid trucks in freely
Those are lies off the top of my head
Anymore for anymore?