Israeli - Palestinian conflict #13

[Moley1]

We all know this isn't about Hamas - this is about land grabbing. It's very well documented that Netanyahu has been looking for this opportunity for years. Does it equally bother you that Netanyahu wants to wipe Palestine off the face of the planet? Thought not.

Little babies did not launch the October 7th attack yet it seems a lot more of them have died than have Hamas fighters. And what do you suppose this will lead to? Fathers losing their babies, brothers losing their siblings - perhaps more radicalisation, more vengeance... more Hamas?

So yes, this is a ridiculous pursuit of "Hamas".

(Btw Moley, this isn't a centuries-old fight, it started in the 1940s).

This didn’t start in 1940, it has been going on for millennia. The pursuit of Hamas is not ridiculous in terms of a terrorist organisation attacking a sovereign country. You would expect any country to retaliate. I did say it was the level of retaliation that has been highly questionable. We know that the Israelis have some of the best intel and special forces and a more targeted approach towards the Hamas leadership was expected. Of course the reprisals are rightly being called out but innocent people have suffered on both sides for centuries. It is way too simplistic to point the finger at one side. This conflict exists because two peoples have yet to find a way to live beside each other in peace. Netanyahu want to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the planet. Hamas wants to wipe Israel off the face of the planet. As I said before, it is the innocent civilians on both sides who pay the price for rampant nationalism.

 

[Jen667]

It’s not a conflict enough, is it? And Israel isn’t a part of it even if it was classed as a conflict, they’re the total sum of the genocidal acts occurring.

This isn’t a pro terrorist thread, it’s very much a humanitarian one. That’s why you and HR feel out of sorts being here.

It's military conflict. One side attacked, the other retaliated. Of course there are civilian casualties as there would be in any military conflict.

 

[Moley1]

Frustrated to the point of cutting off supplies of weapons, money and military backing?

I believe that it isn’t as simple as that. I think that the US has a legal requirement to provide Israel with munitions.
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There are various defence treaties in place which make things problematic.

 

[Moley1]

Biden has responded to Chuck Shumer’s speech positively and endorses his claim that Netanyahu is a block to peace!

 

[Jen667]

Who is to blame for that ? Netanyahu is to blame he was warned several times that an attack was imminent he even had the plans, he ignored warnings from his own military and even after the attack the military didn’t turn up for hours, there is now more and more evidence that Israel were responsible for a large proportion of the deaths with indiscriminate targeting of anything that moved the bombed out homes they tried to blame on Hamas were destroyed by Israeli tanks proven by the tank tracks and eye witness accounts from survivors.
Even the families are asking for a full investigation

Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now

Relatives of civilians killed at a kibbutz in southern Israel during the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas are demanding the military immediately investigate signs that some may have been killed by Israeli security forces as they battled militants holding hostages.

apnews.com

Oh gosh I (sort of ) agree with you. It was a massive security fuck up.

 

[Jen667]

Pretty sure Gazans would happily accept not having a free press in exchange for not being bombed to fuck every two minutes by Israel

I'm sure they would too. Two things can be true at the same time you know. It can be appalling that Gazans have no freedom or civil liberties and also appalling that they live under attack.

 

[Jen667]

Delayed by work, but I saw this post and wanted to respond.

Any harm to Israeli citizens is deplorable. Even where a militia form as resistance to inequality, I do not condone them targeting civilians.

The killing and hostage-taking of Israeli civilians is unacceptable. But it is not justification.

No country has the right to massacre civilians as collective punishment for the killing of their own civilians. No country, be it secular or a religious ethnostate, has a right to deny others rights based on their ethnicity or religion (and before it's asked, absolutely I boycott and protest against other nations doing the same) with the justification of fear for their own civilians. No country has the right to ignore or excuse sexual assaults by its own soldiers while using rape accusations to justify collective punishment.

There has been much condemnation of the actions of October 7th. There has been much condemnation of Hamas, which again I would remind you is used as a catch-all term for not just Hamas (the name of the political group, of whom the al-Qassam Brigades are the militant wing) but various other military groups of varyingly close connection. Not one word of that condemnation provides an excuse for what is happening to the civilians of Gaza.

What makes the killing and uplifting of civilians by Hamas different to the killing and uplifting of civilians by the IDF? I abhor both, do you?

Thank you for that very considered and civil reply. I definitely have not seen any condemnation of Hamas, quite the opposite - they have many supporters and cheerleaders here. People seem to have convinced themselves they are 'freedom fighters.'

I think Israel, like all countries, has the right to defend itself from terrorist attack but I would agree that the response now is inappropriate. So, yes, I abhor that there is suffering on both sides.

 

[Jen667]

Oh apologies I assumed that because, other than perving over a young footballer, you were quite animated about Gary Linikears Nazi reference and haven’t commented on anything for over 6 months but jumped right in defending a genocide. But sorry, I see you’re an expert on other matters too, like child deaths and genders No I can’t make a point about a genocide without being abusive, but if you don’t understand what “hoax” means and what I was referencing then there’s no hope for you! You chose that part of my rant though so I’m assuming you accept the rest but are too embarrassed to admit it?

I haven't logged in for a while due to a family tragedy. I don't believe I've ever claimed to be an expert on anything.

 

[Jen667]

I don't know what you mean. But anyway, for example the people protesting the Leeds chaplain who returned from his genocidal IDF 'tour of duty' are not doing it because they are antisemitic but because they are antifascist and don't want someone who commits war crimes with impunity to have a pastoral role at a British university. Because that kind of thing should worry us all.

I posted a link from the Guardian listing some of the antisemitism being faced by students.

 

[Jen667]

To clarify Jenocide667's point, Palestinians need free press to criticise Hamas but Israel can deliberately kill journalists (as long as it's by airstrike!) to stop the world from seeing the truth and criticising Israel. Weird, warped interpretation of free press.

Doubt there's a single Gazan that gives a flying fuck about free press right now. Is there even a newspaper printing press that hasn't been bombed?! I'm sure Hamas must've used them as human shields.

Yes, well done. That's exactly what I said. You didn't slip the words 'genocide' and 'zionist' in there though. Slipping!

 

[Jen667]

Thanks for proving me right.

How ?

Don't you think an immediate ceasefire would be the best bet for both peace and getting the hostages back?

I do. But ceasefires always come with conditions attached

 

[Jen667]

This isn’t true. You’ve been listening to your zio propaganda friends jen. The source you’ll provide is…Jewish Chronicle, Shomrim, CST. Nobody has been saying kill more Jews but people HAVE been killing Palestinians outside of Palestine. No go zones for Jewish students? Like London yeah? Don’t be ridiculous unless they were Orthodox Jews nobody could tell and I stand shoulder to shoulder with many many Jews on marches week after week who tell me this is nonsense.

Right, so there's to be a report into antisemitism in universities for no reason? This is all inventions?
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this didn't happen (note not the Jerusalem Chronicle)

Why is antisemitism so rife in UK academic settings? I have never found student life more difficult | Anonymous

British campuses have seen more incidents in a month than in all of 2022, but support and understanding are in short supply, says a student at Oxford University

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jen667]

and silence on this question. Says it all.

It says that I've realised it's pointless answering. See earlier question re whether I care about Palestinians. Answer: yes. follow up comments: no you don't, liar, genocide apologist. etc

 

[Moley1]

I want this to be over, why isn't this over yet!?? I don't understand the cruelty!?? Biden is one of the most evil men to have walked this planet.

Why are you blaming Biden for the actions of Netanyahu and his government? He was always going to support US ally Israel in the beginning but it has been clear for some time now that he is unhappy at the way Netanyahu has prosecuted the Israeli response to 7th October. Israel is a sovereign country. Biden can’t tell Netanyahu what to do. If you think Biden is a problem, just wait and see what happens if Trump gets back into the White House!

 

[Jen667]

Would it? Can you say you genuinely believe the IDF would cease the Gaza offensive, and not continue with Netanyahu's stated goal of complete eradication of Hamas?

Who knows? You think he's less trustworthy than Hamas?
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Oh Jen, I see you're really doubling down on talking out of your arse today. It literally takes a quick Google to see how false that statement is. But I suppose you already know that, it's just the hasbara talking.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-ceasefire-proposal-details-2024-02-07/

First 45 days: Release of Israeli civilian women and children aged 19 or under held hostage in Gaza, as well as all elderly and sick hostages.

Second 45 days: Release of all Israeli male civilian and military hostages.

Hate to break it to you but I'm not actually Jewish and don't speak Hebrew but The White House update was from two days ago, your link is over a month old. I'll go with my info as being more valid and accurate

 

[Jen667]

Your glibness doesn't serve you well.

ETA yes it's hilarious to you Jen, I see.

The cherry picking? Yes it is.

 

[Jen667]

 

[Jen667]

Ah we’re at semantics already. That was quick. I would have thought you’d have a better argument.

I was just pointing out that you 'quoted' me saying something I did not. I'm sure you'd do the same.

 

[Jen667]

Yeah I think wishing a stroke on someone is a step too far. Says a lot about you that you would even try and defend that instead of admitting you have gone too far.

Regarding the Israeli soldiers, it's hard to give a fuck about child killers, sorry.

I didn't wish it on her. The opposite and clearly in jest as well as her comments to me were.
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FIFY hope this helps

honestly don’t worry about the stroke comment, it’s hilarious, it remind me of the joke, three nuns walking down the road when a naked man walks past. One has a stroke, the others can’t reach.

but really, she has deep seated anger issues, she’s a Zionist who believes it’s completely ok for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to die, starve, be displaced, be injured…because she feels unsafe in London and she’s more important. She doesn’t accept Isreal has done anything wrong and described what’s going on in Palestine as a humanitarian crisis like it was a natural disaster. I see her as comedy

Never actually said any of the above (apart from the humanitarian crisis). As for 'anger'. I wish you could see me laughing at your comments.

 

[Jen667]

But no Muslim friends to get angry at the rise in Islamophobia? And no Muslim friends to test your blatant Islamophobic tropes on?

Gosh you really are a neutral, reasonable voice

What are my 'blatant islamophobic tropes?' Just out of interest?