Gender discussions

[bubbletea123]

Oh I like the Lonely Trans sexual.

There is a sadness in her posts though - she says that instead of making it better and easier for he to live her life, today's 'transgender' people (as opposed to old school transsexuals, who want to change sex) are actually making things a lot harder in the day to day.

@kat.becs personal question, absolutely fine if you dont want to/cant answer - Why does your son use the word 'transgender' instead of 'transsexual', if he wants to change sex? Is it just a modern/old language thing, or does is his issue with his gender not his sex?

OH wow. I have never realised there is a difference between transgender and transsexual??

 

[Mselvista]

Ok so I've gone back through the thread to find the reference to the "Tyler character".
A screenshot of a FB post shared by twitter user @trareceipts aka Peak trans.
Can't find the poster or the post on FB. But it appears to be a joke. You may not find it funny or may think it's offensive but it is not evidence of that person being in a women's shelter. It's evidence of someone stating they are possibly facetiously.
What it has to do with Canadian legislation I have no idea.
Danielle Muscato, again nothing to do with Canada, shares a video of themselves at what they described as a "homeless shelter". That is not the same thing as a women's refuge. I used to work in housing and now work in welfare advice. Homeless accommodation is not the same as refuges or safe houses for women fleeing domestic abuse. This misrepresentation is to suggest something sinister is going on. I don't know much about Muscato and know they're a controversial figure so I not attempting to defend them as a person but to say they were at a refuge is dishonest.
And it is nothing to do Canadian legislation and is therefore not relevant to any discussion of amendments to the 2004 GRA.

 

[Barb]

Both of those conditions are considered to be intersex and most of us in the intersex community resent being used as a talking point in this way. We have our own struggles and issues and don't need to be co-opted into our existence being evidence in trans issues.

It's part of a thread. I mentioned it was for the accounts and hashtags. Didn't mean to offend. I'll pick a new pic.

 

[gigi_93]

Extremely rare occurrences? I posted a video that had 70 examples. How many is an acceptable number to happen before women can finally be listened to when a lot of us are saying we would prefer to keep our safe spaces female only?

I'm not going to tell a trans person who identifies as female that they're not a woman , let alone "constantly" as you say. But the bottom line is, they are not the exact same as biological women. Trans women are trans women.

And as for your comments about people having kids, it's not for you to comment on other peoples procreative choices.

We can agree to differ. But if someone chooses to have kids knowing they’ll have a problem with their life choices should they arise, they’re a monster.

Maybe you could explain something to me?

Why would you choose a concept which is not rooted in material reality to promote rights? And then whenever anyone is forced to counter that it’s not quite that simple, say ‘STOP CONSTANTLY DENYING MY NARRATIVE YOU VIOLENT PHOBE!!!!’

That’s classic gaslighting and there is a serious problem if you’ve got an entire movement based on this. These are people we’re talking about and you are setting them up for failure by encouraging them to be offended by reality. Why would you do that to someone?

My suspicion is that what started off as a symbolic statement (which I completely agree with. I do believe trans women should be seen and counted as they wish to be) has been taken by some as a literal stance.

Here are some occasions when your biological sex matters:

A fertility clinic
An endocrine clinic
A genetics consultation after sudden death in family
Your life expectancy and other predictive health metrics
Your lung capacity
An oncology clinic (some cancers affect one sex disproportionately)

If people keep insisting that trans women are women, and trans women (possibly already vulnerable after dealing with a lifetime of gender dysphoria) hear it on repeat everywhere they go, it’s going to become a triggering experience for them when they are forced to face reality. Note that the examples above are medical/science based, ie it would not be appropriate for them to ignore the reality of biological sex. Are they transphobic? If not, why not? What if they’re frightened of being accused of being because of people like you?

I think I’m more supportive of trans rights than you are because I’m actually thinking through reality and how trans people need to live their lives away from Twitter.

Sorry for the double post but just been thinking about it on my morning walk. I see my responses above are quite combative which I don’t think is helpful either so I’m sorry for that.

I hope most people want the same thing in the end which is a more accepting society in general, less violent crime against women and better rights for marginalised groups.

I am strongly pro trans rights and strongly pro women’s rights. My work puts me in contact with vulnerable women and trans people and I am no less moved by either group. I want good outcomes and lives and opportunities across the board.

My work does too. My transphobic comments were literally directed at one or two people as I was reading through the thread (and reactionary I admit, although I’ll never agree with saying trans women aren’t women) and I’ve never said bio sex doesn’t matter. I don’t agree with you saying you’re more supportive than me, it’s not a competition. I’m sure we both do our best with what we believe. You make good points so don’t apologise.

 

[Mselvista]

@Mselvista you can be GC without being a transphobe. I'm GC but I don't hate trans people. And I absolutely won't use the word cis female in regard to myself or others, doesn't matter if it's in the OED. There are plenty of words in the OED that I won't use. I will not reduce women to subcategories of our own gender

I consider "gender critical" to be a euphemism.
But I actually don't wish to argue in bad faith.
What *does * "gender critical" mean? I have only seen it used as a counter to trans rights. I'm assuming "gender critical" feminism is not wholly about trans people, what is a gc take one other issues facing women? If you don't want to write long posts, can you point me in the direction of GC feminists or articles? Please bear in mind I am familiar with Bindel, Janice Turner, Hadley Freeman and journalists on this, so will not learm anything new from them.

That’s a facile argument. Nazism is in the OED. Paedophilia is probably in there. It doesn’t mean either of them is an acceptable tenet by which to live.

Cis is not a tenet it is an adjective.
It is a legitimate term.
The definition of Nazism, though dry is not exactly glowing.

None of the definitions of biological or natal are analagois to the definition of of cisgender.
As a writer JK Rowling should know this. Their use was delibrate.

Cis is absolutely not a “neutral, non-loaded term”. It’s not.

Neither is "gender critical".

Can't edit the above as it's tagged onto my earlier post which is now too old. By saying *neither* is...I am not agreeing that "cis" not neutral. It is a descriptive term which is no way loaded.
I don't understand objections to it personally.

 

[Vee6]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...-kind-religion.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Mselvista]

@Mselvista I posted a video here a while back, a transsexual named Kristina Jayne Harrisson. She is evidently very pro women and as a transsexual woman, she has an excellent insight into the ideology. It's from around 2018. I'm out and about at the moment so am not able to search for the link but if I think of it, I'll pop it over later. She's excellent and speaks so clearly on the modern trans ideology and how she believes it's dangerous. She also notes that transsexual is now seen as a dirty word. She was also called bigoted despite fighting hard for trans rights herself!

Ok. The Woman's Place one. I'll have a look. But that there is not consensus within the trans community is known and sometimes there is a generational aspect to this.
I haven't watched the video yet but am I supposed to take notice if the argument it presents because a trans woman is making it? But I can link to numerous other trans voices who will give an alternative viewpoint. Why is Kristina Jayne Harrison's trans status mentioned unless to give credence to her argument?

I'll bet my annual salary that said risk assessment was conducted by a man. You seem to like receipts and can't find anything at speed but here are the Irish Prison Service in 2018 admitting that they are majority staffed by white men: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-prison-3844007-Feb2018/?amp=1

It surprises me that someone so concerned for the welfare of minorities would put so much faith in an administrative process like a risk assessment.

But anyway, I doubt we'll agree.

It is nearly five years since the law changed. The horrendous consequences gc feminists have said are a consequence of self id do not appear to have happened.
Why?
Could it be because they are unfounded?
Is that a possibility?

I'll bet my annual salary that said risk assessment was conducted by a man. You seem to like receipts and can't find anything at speed but here are the Irish Prison Service in 2018 admitting that they are majority staffed by white men: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-prison-3844007-Feb2018/?amp=1

It surprises me that someone so concerned for the welfare of minorities would put so much faith in an administrative process like a risk assessment.

But anyway, I doubt we'll agree.

Why do you need to find stuff at speed? Why aren't horror stories from Ireland all over mumsnet and the gender critical feminism subreddits.

Can you think of a reason why they aren't?

Have they not happened and could the concerns re self id be unfounded?

 

[kat.becs]

I agree. Just simply dressing up as a woman and telling everyone they're women and repeating "trans women are women" seems to be part of the modern trans ideology. Previously dressing up as a woman was known as being a transvestite or cross dresser.

I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Maybe for a minority but even in the part of the trans community who think you don't need dysphoria, many are going through the transition and becoming transwomen/transmen. I think maybe they're just mislabeling their discomfort in their body as normal discomfort and not the dysphoria that it really is? I don't know but I don't really doubt that there are actual trans people who are saying that they don't have dysphoria, but are maybe just misunderstanding their dysphoria. Idk. Like I said I don't really understand that POV.

 

[bubbletea123]

what's your take on it

I haven't watched it yet.

 

[Mselvista]

I know that some on this thread are clearly very interested in this issue and wonder if their research has included reading about Ireland post 2015.

 

[kat.becs]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by “disregarding trans people completely”?

Is it disregarding trans people to say that women are entitled to single sex spaces, for their privacy and dignity? Is it disregarding trans people to say that biological sex is real? Is it disregarding trans people to say that you cannot change your sex?

I‘ve literally never come across a single so-called “anti-trans” voice that’s said trans people don’t have the right to live in peace and happiness, using the name they like and wearing the clothing they like. But women’s rights to single sex spaces (be it toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, shelters and sports) trump the rights of any trans woman who seeks validation from being allowed into these spaces. Trans women should campaign for a third space instead... except that isn’t good enough, apparently.

Maybe not so much disregarding, I probably worded that incorrectly, but degrading them to make a point. Calling transwomen men, and vice versa. Calling them all molesters, calling them attention seekers for just wanting to live as they are.

And a unisex third space is good enough but it also comes with risks for trans people. Obviously I know there's always going to be risks with whatever choice and I'll be happy with a unisex third space for my son but it also concerns me too.

 

[Mselvista]

I've been considering this for a long time now, I was super sympathetic to the plight of trans women but the proposed GRA amendments are what made me critical of the movement. I don't think any woman would refuse to be polite and accommodating to a trans woman in our spaces, because we are generally conditioned to be so. However, my concern goes beyond bathrooms or changing rooms (as has been noted, trans women with a GRC have been using these spaces for decades and it doesn't bother me). My fear over the amendments with self-ID is more about spaces for vulnerable women such as DV shelters. You only have to look at Canada to see that men who very much present as men are self-IDing as women to access these services (see Danielle Moscato, and that Tyler character who someone screenshotted earlier). Most women will never end up in shelters or prison, so it's very easy to speak from a position of privilege and say "well the trans bathrooms situation doesn't bother me and therefore anyone bothered must be a bigot".

We need to consider the effect legislation like this has on sex protected spaces for women fleeing violence and abuse, or incarcerated women. Most shelters won't allow boys over 12 because the residents are so traumatised by men in their proximity. Imagine being a mum separated from her pre-pubescent son because he'd be a traumatising factor to other women, but there being a trans woman with many remaining male identifiers housed in the same building. It's just unimaginable to me.

And I agree that this is very much a male problem: trans women also experience considerable violence at the hands of men. However, in the same way that women have had to self-advocate and organise to protect themselves, the trans community should work (and women would be more than happy to advise and assist, I am positive) to create similar support networks which cater to the very specific needs of that community.

I think while women and trans women can be staunch allies for each other, our needs and services shouldn't be conflated. We're all oppressed because the label of 'not a man' is somehow considered less, but the implications of biology create nuance which I think we can't ignore.

You only have to look at Canada to see that men who very much present as men are self-IDing as women to access these services (see Danielle Moscato, and that Tyler character who someone screenshotted earlier).

I thought Danielle Muscato is American and as far as I can tell still lives there.
I don't know who Tyler is.
But regardless have they entered women's spaces to assault women?
Or do you think they look rough?

 

[Mercedes12]

So if we hypothetically introduce a third changing space for trans women, what is there to protect them from men pretending to be trans to access these areas to specifically attack trans women? I’m sure if you looked at statistics, male on trans woman crime is significantly higher than the instances where a man pretending to be trans attacks a woman in a female only space.

I agree we need to protect women but I feel like in that discussion, trans people are an after thought. People want to protect women with little disregard for the safety of trans women who are being shunned because of male predators that are nothing to do with them.

I don’t believe we shoulda stop protecting women because rapists will always exist but I do think we need to stop blaming women’s behaviour/clothes/intoxication for their own rape, in the same way we need to stop blaming the existence of trans women for assaults carried out by these male predators.

 

[kat.becs]

Personally as much as my son would be happy with unisex bathrooms they somewhat worry me more because anyone could have access to him too, and as hate crimes towards trans people are rising, I have concerns about that. He’s already been targeted.

Not saying they shouldn’t exist and that women’s concerns aren’t real but there are risks for everyone involved and there’s no ‘right’ way to deal with any of it.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I just feel like sadly, there are always going to be evil men who will try to sexually assault and rape women. Remove this option of posing as trans to gain access to women only spaces and they will find another way.



Your previous post referred to those who were yet to undergo surgery or hormone therapy and said these were men cross dressing. I was stating that I disagree and those with dysphoria who are pre-treatment for whatever reason are trans women.

I also don’t agree that these predatory men claiming to be trans to harm others can be classed as part of the trans community or as trans people - I think this an insult to trans women. These predators are lies and men - they have nothing to do with those with genuine dysphoria.

I think you may be mixing me up with someone else as I'm not sure which post you're referring to.

 

[Mselvista]

If by saying these views are mainstream you mean most people are against self ID then I agree.

Reports I've read stated that in the consultation 70% supported self id.
What is your assertion that the majority are against it based on?
When I say "gender critical" views are mainstream I mean that they are published in the Daily Mail, the Times and the Guardian. Can you name a mainstream commentator countering the "gender critical" narrative with a regular column or who is regularly published in a national newspaper. I can't think of one.

 

[Mercedes12]

But why is removing body parts seen as the best solution? What about counselling and therapy? And in what other situation is suicide seen as leverage?

I don’t believe it is the best or only solution, I know there are a lot of trans people that don’t have the full surgery as they don’t feel like they need to. I would encourage counselling and seeking help (I’m a massive advocate of therapy in general!), from what I’ve read you would need to undergo in-depth assessments which I assume would include talking therapies before any physical treatment would even be considered if going through NHS (years down the line it could be). But if the dysphoria persisted and was that strong, I’d rather my child be happy than them harm themselves because they are so deeply unhappy.

Obviously I wouldn’t let a child access hormones etc before they were 18 (I’m not sure if this is even legal in the UK?). I don’t think there is even an argument for, would you let your child have a sex change in terms of surgery because I’m pretty sure that’s not legal in any country!

Same as having a child who’s not heterosexual, the only thing that would upset me is the possibility of other people making their life harder.

 

[Mselvista]

Can I ask a serious question here?

Why are we, as a society, all of a sudden hesitant to say “women” in reference to mensuration?

I am not aware that there is any such hesitation.

In some contexts it is more accurate to refer to people who menstruate because that includes everyone who menstruates.

Referring to "women who menstruate" excludes trans men and non-binary people.

Saying simply women in this context is inaccurate as has already been discussed. I am a cis woman who has not yet gone through the menopause and I haven't had a hysterectomy. I don't menstruate.

 

[kat.becs]

Anyway I came across this on Twitter that is a list of trans rights related petitions. Mainly USA based but they need all the help they can get right now and every signature helps. Especially with trump revoking their health care protections.

trans rights!

list of trans rights petitions

trans--rights.carrd.co

 

[Mselvista]

Yes I would go to reception or call the police if necessary.

However you also seem to assume a man would have to physically do something such as overpower me to make me feel uncomfortable or threatened. A man just faffing around or sitting in a changing room would make me uncomfortable, even though he's not actually doing anything physical.

I thought men were going to use GRA changes to attack wonen in single sex spaces. What are they now going to just hang out in women's changing rooms catching up on emails?

Why should language be neutral and not specific? Should we change the whole English language to suit a very small minority? According to a survey undertaken in 2011 by the Equality and Human Rights Committee 1.4% of the UK population are within minority gender groups, do you think the other 98.6% of the population should change everything to suit them? Women are women and I will not be reduced by anyone to "cis". I was born female, I have two X chromosomes and no Y chromosome, therefore I am a woman. A man who undergoes gender reassignment survey or hormone treatment possesses a Y chromosome and is therefore genetically a man. DNA does not lie! Even the most convincing looking transgender male to female is still biologically male, that is a fact of nature pure and simple. As for the "not every woman menstruates" argument, every woman on the planet stops menstruating once they have gone through menopause!

As for the Muslim/Moslem argument, I used to work with a Muslim Dutch lady who described herself on all documentation as Moslem. I used to book flights for her very regularly and on every booking in the comments section she requested a Moslem meal. Not Muslim, Moslem!

The Dutch for Muslim is Moslim. I wasn't talking about the use of the word by non-English speakers. This is bad faith.