Gender discussions

[Mselvista]

She's playing a character. I'm surprised you find her rude and sarcastic. I think she's really measured. I also think she's funny. She takes the piss out of all participants in the trans "debate". Not in this video but in others.

"Trans issues" are setting feminism back YEARS due to their insistence that "gender" is fixed and sex is a social construct. Utter bollocks.

I'm intrigued by what you mean by "setting feminism back years". Do you mean back to second wave feminism?
I think that some feminist's obsession with trans women takes up too much time/bandwith that could usefully be used promoting actual women's issues. So in that sense as long as this issue dominates feminism progress will be slower in

Posted too soon - progress which will improve all women's lives will be slower.

 

[Mselvista]

I'm tired of energy being spent on a toxic debate which, frankly, detracts from issues women face on a day to day basis.

I agree entirely.
I think we may disagree re where the toxicity originates but
I skim read the two Danish articles I posted.
I did not read all of a dry law gazette article which buried the lede somewhat.
I have tried to find sources for things referenced in the discussion to establish the veracity or otherwise of stuff said here.

The Irish scandals you mentioned were covered up to protect powerful figures in the church. What do they have to do with the experience of cis women in Ireland since the GRA came into force. I do not understand their relevance.

 

[kat.becs]

The misogyny out in the real world is more frightening than anything I've seen here to be honest.

I’m not denying misogyny but that doesn’t mean I’m not uncomfortable with some of the things that have been said or implied here towards trans people either.

 

[PineappleQueen19]

sorry but developmental abberations (like intersex characteristics) or gene faults don’t male something a spectrum.


Some people’s genes are faulty and they are born with 4 arms. We don’t say ‘humans have between 2 and 4 arms’ so when someone is born with intersex characteristics be they sex organs or xx/Xy differences that doesn’t male a third sex or sp

There are two sexes, male and female. That is written into every cell of our body. To the point that you can detect sex from our sweat.

and NONE of that has to do with or has any correlation with trans people.

At the end of the day everyone has gametes, whether yours are large or small tells you which sex you are.

I thought there were at least five recognised biological sexes? I read about this years ago. Now I’m unsure

 

[Zenchick101]

whats that

 

[Zenchick101]

He didn't. It was a hoax from a TRA intent on ruining his life

Edit. Sorry, I just saw your next post

I am so angry with TRAs and their sick, twisted lies. GL has kids and an ex wife, imagine the damage those lies are doing to them.

what's his new handle?

 

[Mselvista]

Within three minutes she concedes TERF (A term that is used to describe women she doesn’t agree with) is a slur. That’s pretty darn misogynistic to me. She goes on to joke about her ‘inner terf’ being ‘extra biological’ and ‘when the full moon shines she speaks’.

I don't consider terf to be a misogynist term. I know it's origins but it's now become shorthand for a transphobic person. I wouldn't use it exclusively about women - I'd describe Graham Linehan as a terf for brevity. I won't use the term "gender critical" except in scare quotes - it's an attempt to repackage transphobia as far as I'm concerned.
As for the video taking the piss, it's supposed to be entertaining as well as informative.
In this video she takes the piss out of both transmedicalists and what's been characterised earlier on the thread as SJW types. Does that make the video transphobic? She's playing with tropes to explore ideas as well as make her point.

 

[Mselvista]

Why should language be neutral and not specific? Should we change the whole English language to suit a very small minority?

Why can I not use the term terf to describe transphobic feminists, male or female? It is not neutral and is specific.
Why should this term, an acronym of how some feminists described their beliefs not be used to describe men and women who espouse anti trans rhetoric dressed up as feminism?
Should we change the whole English language to suit a small minority? I would argue in this case no. Those offended by being calling a terf aka a transphobe do not get to dictate how they are described.
In some circumstances I would argue we absolutely should. That is how language becomes more inclusive.
Also language changes all the time. As progress is made the concerns and objections of "small minorities" contribute to that change. I consider that a good thing and assumed all right-minded people did too.

I have asked for recommendations of reading or perhaps links for me to understand.
I am assuming those disagreeing with me have read widely on this subject and I know it is sometimes easier to provide a link then type out a long post.

 

[kat.becs]

I think it's only a slur when used in the wrong context.

 

[Mselvista]

ETA: "someone like that" meaning a ten time sex offender and child abuser.

I must admit that I had only skimmed the article so missed this info. As the article makes clear a risk assessment has taken place and appropriate measures take to hopefully eliminate any risk.

But I think your earlier response of "campaign for women in Africa and Asia" then shows that your responses really aren't in good faith, so I'm wasting my time.

I can see how that could be seen as flippant.

I mean that this obsession with trans women means that other feminist issues do not get the attention they deserve. It's a moral panic. And, like most moral panics is largely without foundation.

 

[Vee6]

Bloody hell!!!

 

[soberpanda]

And also at least on the NHS from what we've been told to get any kind of reassignment surgery you have to be at least 18, have been on testosterone for at least 6 months (which isn't usually given until they're 18 anyway), and they have to have been socially transitioned for at least a year comfortably for them to even consider surgery. So they're most commonly AT LEAST 19 before they can get any surgery which is what we've been told to look at. I don't know what it is for private but I imagine not much different.

And they would've gone through gender clinics, seen psychiatrists, therapists etc. It's not a one visit to your GP and there you go. I wish the process was a little easier for the sake of people like my son who are extremely distressed by their bodies every day but it's just not as simple as people seem to conclude.

Yeah I don't see any children going through surgery. Puberty blockers, maybe but they are reversible, right?

 

[PoleStar]

Come on, no need to derail with NAMALT. We all know there are scores of decent men in the world. But that doesn’t negate the fact that men as a class are a danger to women as a class.

Excuse me?? I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[bubbletea123]

whats that

A documentary by trans people about how trans are treated in the film and TV industry. I haven't seen it but saw a clip from it.

 

[jewelkitty]

Oh wow! I applaud your bravery for sharing it.

Thank you

 

[RosePetals]

That is not an accurate description of how an amended GRA would work.
It would not be a case of simply saying "I'm a woman". It would be a legal declaration. It is simply a streamlining of the process meaning it would be less onerous and would not require "validation" from a medical professional.
All proposals I have seen, include a provision criminalising a false declaration.

But do you suggest proving something is a false declaration?
Fro the Stonwwall site regarding the legal consultation:
"Requires no medical diagnosis or presentation of evidence for trans people to get their identity legally recognised"

So what evidence does there need to be, if not medical. Presumably if someone was taking medications or pursuing surgery that would be medical evidence. I can't think what else could be "policed" for something to be proven as false. I guess maybe a name change or some such? But again that is very simple to do with little consequence, meanwhile the consequences of certain men being allowed into female only spaces could be devastating. It already has been for some woman

 

[Zenchick101]

I have endo too, and so many people have no clue what it is

I'm just flabbergasted.

 

[Zenchick101]

I obviously can't speak for the community personally, but only from what I've been told and what I've learned through my interactions with professionals in my future field of work. A lot of it is due to stigma, I believe. I know that for a lot of trans people, the language behind it initially being recognised as a psychological disorder felt dangerous as there were experiences of trans people being sent to psychologists to receive therapy to "cure" them. I know a lot of trans people who liken it to conversion therapy, and to the feeling of it being something that has to be reversed or fixed. A few of my trans friends recall their parents doing some Googling (before icd-11), and sending them to be "fixed" after reading that it was a psychological disorder. They had removed it as being pathological and started to recognise gender dysphoria as a sexual health condition, defined as 'gender incongruence' to explain the incongruence between gender identity and their experiences, and their biological sex. I think they explained gender dysphoria as not meaning impaired and that it didn't necessarily have to include distress over gender, hence the change. They also explained how it was important to recognise that a lot of what was felt internally by trans people was due to lack of support and negative social attitudes. So the change in language was greatly pushed in order to help break down the stigma and dismantle the discrimination, thus leading to it being a condition because they wanted it to still be recognised as something that may require treatment or help. I hope that explained it a little! I know there's more to it and I'm sure a trans person could explain it far better than me, but...

thanks I think I understood most of that, but apart from the negative connotations wouldn't it still be a mental health condition? it's just that part of what you mentionned involves the mind, and from what I've been told a sexual health condition - is PCOS for example. I might be off-base here

 

[Mselvista]

Will work on a better post when I have time but for now:

https://4thwavenow.com/resource-index/ a fairly long resource list
I find https://fairplayforwomen.com/ quite comprehensive

Also some stats on why have single sex spaces is paramount

Violence against Women and Girls and Male Position Factsheets – Home Office in the media

The Home Office has published a refresh to its 2016 Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy and a Male Victims position paper. Please see below for factsheets on both of these publications, highlighting some of the key fact and measures

homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk

Violence against women

It exists in virtually every culture in the world today. Even where it is prohibited or illegal it creeps into schools, homes, workplaces and out on to the street. </p>Violence against women is a human rights issue, and it's everyone's problem.

www.amnesty.org.uk

Domestic abuse is a gendered crime - Women’s Aid

Whilst both men and women may experience domestic abuse, women are more likely to experience repeated and severe forms of abuse, including sexual violence.

www.womensaid.org.uk

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

www.independent.co.uk

Sorry not the best list but perhaps others can add more

I'm going to read all that!

Is there are tl:dr version

I thought someone may be able to link to a starting point outlining the GC stance. A primer, if you will. Or perhaps something that influenced their thinking.
I doubt anyone read all the attached and then came to a conclusion.
If not perhaps a gc feminist who has influenced their thinking.

So if we’re going to start referring to women as ‘menstruators’ and ‘people who menstruate’ are men going to start being called ‘ejaculators’ or ‘people with prostates’?

In a medical context people with prostates is completely appropriate.

 

[Mselvista]

I can not reply to every point made. I do have other things to do.
I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.
Apart from Kristina Jayne Harrison no one has recommended a gc feminist who they think it might be helpful for me to read. (I have not yet watched the video).
I have said that I think "gender criticism" is a euphemism for transphobic ideas. I have been told I am wrong about this. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have asked for an article which sets out gc beliefs which is not written by a transphobic person. Or a reccomendation of a gc activist who is not transphobic - I'll then take a look at their work.

Apologies, Melvista and thanks for clearing up that you are a woman.

I don't know what you're apologising for here.