Gender discussions

[Mercedes12]

Unfortunately I don't think so. It's a high-speed train to affirmation and hormones/blockers, from what I can gather.

I think it may depend on where you live and if you go private. I think in the US they’re a lot quicker to begin treatment (may be wrong) and what I’ve read online from trans women seems that waiting times through the NHS can mean waiting years to get access to hormone therapy.

 

[Mselvista]

You asked if there were concerns over self-ID in Ireland, @Mselvista, and I responded with an article which shows there are, in fact, concerns.

No, I did not. I said I wondered if anyone's research has included reading about Ireland post 2015.
I didn't ask if there were concerns.
It is nearly 5 years since the changes in Ireland.
Instead of hypothetical "what someone did this" or "what if someone did that" there is a real life model of a society very close culturally to the UK's where self id has been enacted.
Perhaps research of what has happened in refuges in Ireland. Or reading how the changes in Ireland have impacted cis women's lives would be fruitful.
It may reassure that any changes to the gra on the uk would not necessarily lead to the results you fear.

 

[jewelkitty]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

You brought up a really interesting point! So I had a girl I went to uni with private message me, she very calmly and understandingly explained her side of things being against JKR. She politely gave me some things to read and look into which I've been doing as like I said I'm completely open to 'the other side.' One of the things she brought up was the concept of transmedicalism, or truscum. I hadn't heard of it before but it's a certain type of trans person that believe unless you have gender dysphoria or undergo gender reassignment surgery then you're not actually transgender. This is apparently a controversial view, but it aligns with what you said about non-binary people who don't experience dysphoria not really being the same as trans people. This idea is totally new to me and obviously I'm not trans but this would make more sense to me.

 

[Mercedes12]

I think you may be mixing me up with someone else as I'm not sure which post you're referring to.

Apologies, I got posts mixed up

 

[Mselvista]

Ah, Ok. I wonder if anyone has any knowledge or has done any research on Ireland.

 

[Mselvista]

This isn't referring to those who have undergone reassignment surgery and had their male parts removed, but men who are simply saying they feel like a woman. Two very, very different scenarios in my mind. I've been on the receiving end of male abuse, both physical and verbal and it is absolutely awful and gut-wrenching. If I'm in a changing room trying on bras, for example, I would feel terribly vulnerable if I thought a man could come in at any moment. It's outrageous that a tiny, tiny minority of the population are trying to dictate to women what is OK and what is not.

The solution as I see it is an additional unisex changing room.

Hang on I thought the objection was to men "simply saying they're women" to gain access to changing rooms?
Now trans women have to use a seperate space?
Will they be questioned about their genitalia before being allowed entry?
Or have to show documentation?
You understand this will affect cis women who are tall, post masectomy, present as butch or in some cases are not conventionally attractive? Some cis women have already reported being challenged when using public toilets.

No, I think it's incongruent that young boys are separated from their families at a traumatic time in which their life is fractured due to violence, but the same spaces would be made to accommodate trans women who present very male characteristics by GRA self-ID amendments.

I don't know why you're making out what I said to be in any way shitty. Putting words in my mouth. Traumatised women should not be made to be around male bodies.

Ok. But again what have Muscato and Tyler (still no idea) got to do with the point you are making?

 

[Mselvista]

Oh put a sock in it for Pete's sake!! You really are determined to try and undermine everyone aren't you, grow up.

After some of the slurs put forward to us women in this thread the thought of one trans person being labelled trans phobic by another trans person really makes me smile ... oh the irony!!

Have you reported the posts?
I haven't seen any personally but you should report it.
No one wants the discussion to descend into insults.

 

[kat.becs]

Saw this thought I’d share here.

Idk, this seems very experienced based. My son knows he's in a biological female body and knows he wasn't necessarily 'born in the wrong body' but he very much feels like a boy and feels like his body doesn't match who he is at all, and also fully believes he was born trans. I'm not sure what they mean by, 'not born trans'. Does that mean they think it's something learnt in life?
I'm not saying they don't feel that way or diminishing them, but I don't think it's the same for every trans person.

 

[barmj]

I think men are far more likely to be transphobic than women. I don’t think Radcliffe or that other one would go out with a transwoman in reality

I agree with the first sentence but that comment about Daniel Radcliffe and Eddie Redmayne is unfair and kind of irrelavant. I’m not attacking you but I would like to offer my perspective. DR is, and always has been, extremely vocal about gay and LGBT rights and is a huge advocate. As for ER, we know he portrayed Lili Elbe, a transwoman, in a movie called The Danish Girl. Yes, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s an ally, and I did see a previous post about Scarlett Johansson being forced to drop out of a trans role but I’ll address that in a moment.

When I said it’s irrelevant whether DR and ER would date transwomen, it’s because ER has a wife, and DR has been with his partner for years. It’s also because I personally think you can be an ally while having a personal preference for people whose gender identity correspond with their biological sex (aka, man with penis, woman with vagina). I would say it’s similar to women who are lesbians, it’s because, most of them, they like women and they like vaginas. Not because they hate men and/or penises. Some of them do though, and that is absolutely fine! Lesbians, and bi women, date women who are butch and masculine, but they’re still women with vaginas. Just like gay men, and bi men, who date feminine men, who are still men with penises.

I know that in some cases, a lesbian isn’t bothered if a woman they date or hook up with is biologically male, and vice versa for men with other men who are biologically female. I suppose, for them, it’s about the person and/or gender identity rather than what is between their legs, which is perfectly valid, imo. So I think it should be valid for people who are allies but prefer certain genitals to match certain people. I hope that makes sense. I know not many allies/TRAs agree with my sentiments, unfortunately. That’s just my perspective though, and I think it’s easy (and privileged) for me to say because I’m technically pansexual, and I don’t have the perspective of a lesbian woman or a gay man. But I am a woman, and like most women, I have had many negative and traumatic experiences with men, so I don’t begrudge other women who want single sex spaces to remain safe. I actually agree with them in some aspects.

Now, the drama with Scarlett Johansson. Redmayne’s movie was released in 2015, which I would say was slightly just before TRA era, when it really took off, and not necessarily down to sexism. I know that Jared Leto played a transwoman in Dallas Buyers Club but the movie came out in 2013. I don’t know much about the TV show called Transparent where Jeffrey Tambor played a transwoman but it is important to note that he was rightfully fired from the show after sexual harrassment allegations were made against him. As for female actors portraying transmen, Felicity Huffman was a transwoman in a 2005 movie called Transamerica, and most notably, Natalie Portman portrayed Brandon Teena in Boys Don’t Cry. The movie was released in 1999 and Natalie Portman won an Oscar for her role.

I don’t have an answer for Scarlett Johansson but I think it’s largely to do with how problematic and controversial she is. For example, she portrayed an Asian character (whitewashing), she’s pro-Israel, and she’s one of Woody Allen’s biggest supporters. So I think it makes sense that she was advised or forced not to take on that transwoman role, and rightfully so. I know sexism and bigotry are rampant in Hollywood but I think this is one of the rare instances where Hollywood has done something right.

 

[judsmum]

I like this

Jonathan Pie is always fantastic!!
I’d have been incinerated a long time ago!!

 

[Mercedes12]

Hi so hormone therapy is legal in the states from what I understand. Besides that I think most people here would try and accept it but find it a bit difficult also because it seems like it would come from a place of self hatred/hating themselves/their body in a way. I know that I'd feel sad that my child is uncomfortable with their body so much that they wish to medically change it so much that it could also potentially reduce their lifespan/cause them serious health problems in the future (I'm getting this information from older trans people on twitter who are saying this).

I would feel sad for my child if they were trans because their life would be more difficult than if they were not but I would 100% be on board with it if (after in-depth therapies and assessments) they wanted to transition to live a happy life, I wouldn’t find it odd or weird. And that transition would entirely depend on what they felt comfortable with and once all risks had been weighed up.

Like with the rest of the LGBT community, I believe that is how people are born and they can’t help it so if I had a genuinely trans child I’d support them in and way possible.

You might have been simply saying that but the other poster said women who feel like that are monsters and shouldn't have kids. Similarly, the poster who said she wouldn't be on board with it didn't say she would disown or denounce a child for being trans. She said she would love them still.

It's perfectly normal to love your child but not be on board with something or find it odd. I don't think my mother approves of every life decision I make (she certainly would find posting on a forum with strangers odd). If I became a man tomorrow she would definitely not be "on board" with it but she's not a monster.

Parents are human too and though you will unconditionally love your child, that does not mean you will never get frustrated, confused, be bewildered by their life choices.

This isn't directed at you by the way but saying that women who feel like that are monsters and shouldn't have kids under any circumstances is an extremely immature world view.

As I said above, I believe this is how people are born - it is not their choice to be trans. I’m sure the majority of trans people given the choice would never have chosen this life for themselves for how difficult it can be and the abuse they have to endure. You could be confused because, if you haven’t experienced dysphoria yourself it might be difficult to understand but I think saying you are not “on board with it” suggests you wouldn’t support your child.

 

[Mselvista]

I this this article, while it doesn't delve into precise details and stats, is a good balanced view : https://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward

Edit to add: I'm also wondering whether you're open at the moment to exploring other view points, perhaps put exploring further research on hold now until you're in the right headspace to really try to understand the alternative view - which I actually think in some places is very similar to your own.

I'll read it, thanks.
I have already shown I am will to do research. I found 26 mentions of "women" on the Body Shop website.
I found Hackney Council E&D policy which lists sex as a protected characteristic.
I've found a transcript of Kristina Jayne Harrison's Women's Place talk.
I've established that D Muscato is not Canadian or resident in Canada and did not film himself in a women's refuge.
I have tried to find the original source for stuff discussed here.
I do this normally before sharing stuff I agree with or which aligns with my views before posting on FB or Twitter. I'm not treating the stuff shared here by "gender critics" to special scrutiny. With the prevalence of misinformation on social media, I like to check stuff myself. I consider it to be acting responsibly by trying to ensure I am not adding to the spread of inaccurate information.

 

[Mselvista]

Crikey. I thought it was "TRAs" who wouldn't engage with anyone with whom they disagreed.

Crikey. I thought it was "TRAs" who wouldn't engage with anyone with whom they disagreed.

This was in response to @mindlessness .

 

[Zenchick101]

the other issue is that people get offended simply by stating that it's a mental illness or something to that effect. No a mental illness doesn't make you less then, and if transitioning is the best therapy I'm 100000% on board with that.

 

[kat.becs]

But if unisex spaces are unsafe, then that only proves the point that women deserve single sex spaces for themselves.

Allow me to plagiarise a post on Mumsnet which I saw recently:

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

That’s the crux of it.

I never said they didn't deserve that, though?

But we can't also avoid the fact that unisex spaces can be dangerous for others too. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist or that it's not the best option but it doesn't come without risks either. We can be worried about both.

 

[Mel Donte]

Because "people" don't get periods. Biological women get periods and that can't be argued.

But there are plenty of cis women who don't get periods, and the article was specifically about menstrual health and hygiene issues. So using 'women' in place of 'people who menstruate' wouldn't have made sense.

 

[Vee6]

This is a blog post from a post op transsexual which I found interesting. I tried to copy and paste the blog link but the thumbnail showed graphic photos of the post op so I thought I'd better just copy and paste the text!

"I would like to take an opportunity to talk about reassignment surgery.

Those familiar with my blog will be well be aware of my thoughts on the transsing of children and the notion of changing sex so such thoughts are outside what I would like to talk about.

Instead I want to talk openly and honestly about reassignment surgery. Can I say from the outset I have no regrets about surgery whatsoever and I had an amazing surgeon who still supports me.

As a sufferer of sex dysmorphia I detested my male anatomy. It represented a part of me that I couldnt live with and caused significant damage to my mental health. I couldn’t bear to touch it or even look at it. Even with extensive psychological and psychiatric input I was simply unable to accept this as a part of me. That made me a suitable candidate for surgery.

Having gone through the surgery it was a difficult and painful process and it disturbs me deeply at how casually the modern ideology views the process. This is MAJOR SURGERY and recovery is long. Being mentally prepared was absolutely essential and I knew exactly what I was getting in to. Even as a mature adult this was extremely tough and the thoughts of putting any young person through this is horrific.

So, I would like to clear up a few key points….

No, this is not comparable to a natal vulva / vagina. Not even close.

Its all so easy nowadays. Dont want a penis? Swap it for a vagina. Snip,snip and job done. Hell never mind not wanting a penis do you fancy a change? Get yourself a vagina.

Sorry to disappoint but the only way to have a vagina is to be born with one. Surgery may make an artistic representation of one that yes, may at first glance be passable FOR SOME but its a very far cry from natures design. All the internal anatomy is missing and many external characteristics are too.

The lie that results of surgery are comparable to natal anatomy is necessary. Its part of the brainwashing that actually men and women arent that different so “swapping” to a different set of genitals is easy.

All too often we see people who claim to have had the surgery (however see below) talk about how fantastic the results are, how indistinguishable it is from the “real thing” and indeed I have seen instances of “trans” claim that the trans “version” is better. Yes, thats right, there are those who claim men can be better than women at having vaginas.

Most who have had this surgery havent.

So many claim to have had the surgery or be about to. Its a lie. For those who have had the surgery and experienced the long road to recovery it is blatantly obvious when we read of the so called surgery transition experiences of others.

When you talk about having sex for the first time a week after surgery? No you didnt.

At the end of the day there is no way to prove if someone has had the surgery or not. Never let your guard down because someone says they are post op.

I commonly come across two types of “trans” people:

The first is the proud penis owner who has no interest in surgery and is happy to gaslight you into believing that women can have penises. “It’s a lady penis” they say because “I’m a woman!”.

The second type is the “ally”; the one who comes alongside and says “You don’t mean to exclude me, I’m a woman just like you.”. Often they have a well told narrative that tugs on the heart strings. They talk about the surgery they had or are going to be having. In their own head they may or may not believe it but they talk about it often enough!

When I woke up after surgery I was still me. I was still a person born male, conditioned as male and benefitting from being male. I can tell you all sorts about a horrible childhood and my gender identity issues but so what? Having surgery isn’t a personality transplant. A narcissistic entitled misogynist will still be the same no matter what is between their legs. A cosmetic change, no matter how major, does not create a new person.

Judge me for being me, not against a perception linked to anatomy.

Why do we never see “during” pictures and so few after pictures….

Very interesting that the pictures we often see are very well healed surgeries and represent the very best case scenario, sometimes following revision surgery. On a couple of occassions I have known of those using intimate images of natal women to show the results of their “miracle surgery”. A before and after is all very well but it is all to easy to blindly ignore the process. We never hear of complications. We never hear of the pain, swelling, wound discharge, bleeding, smell….. There are many possible complications and I have yet to speak to a fellow post op transsexual who didnt have something go wrong.

For me I experienced several infections but also neoclitoral necrosis. The neoclitoris is created from the tip of the penis and is, as you can imagine, extremely sensitive. For 5 weeks I went through debridement; essentially a “sanding down” of the necrotic tissue done under no anaesthesia. I would come home, take a sedative and cry in bed. As surgery goes I was extremely lucky and had very, very few issues. Some of the complications are truly horrific and some go on to need further surgery.

I say this not for sympathy (and I must add I continue to recover well) but to reinforce my point earlier. This is MAJOR SURGERY, and surgery that has been done on children. Let that sink in.

Surgery is a lifetime committment

Once the testicles are removed a lifetime committment to medication and blood testing is made. The body is no longer capable of producing all the hormones it needs and these must be chemically delivered. This is not an exact science and three monthly blood testing is essential if not sooner. The body is very sensitive to fluctuations in hormone levels.

With these chemical hormones is risk.

An AGP may be aroused by the thought of having a “vagina”. I wonder how they would view seeing themselves in a wheelchair after having had a stroke from feminising hormones?

These hormones for me treat a condition. Yes, they do work, and I’m not going to say they didn’t. As with any medication you weigh up risks and benefits and for me it was an easy decision. The benefits remain to this day but so too do the risks. It concerns me greatly however that for many the benefits are built on lies and when that happens all that is left is risk. You need only speak to a detransitioner to know that the benefits they were sold were just nonsense, the risks were downplayed and now, years later, they are damaged individuals. All risk, no benefit.

Why would you do this to yourself?

There is only one reason for anyone to have this surgery and it is simply this; to not have the surgery is worse.

I could not live with a penis.

When I look down now I dont see myself as a woman because I know I can never be one. What I feel is relief. I feel free to be non conforming and its almost like the surgery gave me permission to be myself. I hope you can understand that statement even though it doesnt necessarily make sense. Psychological issues seldom do make sense!

“No one would ever have surgery and still call themselves a man!”

I hear this statement on a daily basis. For some its said maliciously, with others it seems to be genuine confusion. I don’t call myself a man or identify as a man… I AM a man. I am not saying I want to be, far from it but truth is truth. Acceptance is key in mental health. Because I know I am a man I dont need to be seen as a woman or validated as such.

Final thought….

I’m going to do something here that I feel is necessary to get my message across and something many have expressed curiosity about. I am going to show a post surgery picture of my own. You will need to scroll to see it so if you dont want to, dont scroll! No, this is not me being perverse. Depending on the response I get I may ultimately delete these images but for now we’ll see how it goes.

The surgery I had was an orchiectomy (removal of the testicles), penectomy (removal of the penis) and vulvoplasty (creation of a neovulva). I do not have a neovagina. I saw no benefit in doing so when I have no interest in sex. That is not to say I am not capable of sexual pleasure but the thought of a pocket of skin jammed between my bladder and bowel that is non lubricated, non elastic and non cleaning just didn’t appeal. Bizzarely I have been accused of being a fetishist and a fake trans” for doing so which I find somewhat peculiar!

These pictures says more that I could communicate in words.

It shows the extent of the surgery. It shows what people have done to children.

Be horrified and disgusted. I want you to be. I want you to look at the image and say “What the hell is that?”. I want you to weigh up the raw reality of the picture against modern trans narrative. Is this really a “real” vulva? Does that make someone change sex?

I’m not here to tell anyone how to live their life. I applaud non conformity and very much consider myself gender critical. I want everyone to understand the reality of transition and surgery and to think long and hard before undertaken such a difficult journey, it is my sincere wish that changes in societal attitudes about gender will significantly reduce such surgeries in the future but for now they remain a necessary evil for a rare few."

i need to see the pictures

 

[Podcat]

I can not reply to every point made. I do have other things to do.
I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.
Apart from Kristina Jayne Harrison no one has recommended a gc feminist who they think it might be helpful for me to read. (I have not yet watched the video).
I have said that I think "gender criticism" is a euphemism for transphobic ideas. I have been told I am wrong about this. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have asked for an article which sets out gc beliefs which is not written by a transphobic person. Or a reccomendation of a gc activist who is not transphobic - I'll then take a look at their work.

I'm still unsure how we're defining transphobic, but when I first started reading up about all this I found Rebecca Reilly Cooper's work useful (there is a lot there so probs not one to skim read):

Trans issues and gender identity

19. While we will all experience unease and discomfort living under the constraints of gender to a greater or lesser degree, some persons experience this especially intensely and acutely, to the ex…

sexandgenderintro.com

I mostly agree with this Guardian editorial (the guardian often posts comment pieces for both sides and this editorial was then countered by a number of its writers inc Owen Jones)

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Did anyone watch Newsnight?

 

[Zenchick101]

saw an interesting thread on twitter today, #peaktrans what was yours?