Gender discussions

[Zenchick101]

I can't believe we are at a point in time where we are reduced to "womxn", "menstruators", "front holes", "everybody with a cervix" etc.
But men are getting no impact from it. It is so clearly hate against REAL WOMEN.

I've realized exactly why that kind of vocabulary offends me. takes me back to when women were literally just incubators for possible babies.

Wtf. I just googled glinner to get to his site, my phone autocorrects to glinner.com and it brought me to the Mermaids website?? The fuck.

same here.

 

[barmj]

Firstly, men have pretended to be trans to access female prisons and bathrooms. We know this.

Secondly, you don’t have to literally transition to access female spaces - just throw on a frock (or, indeed, don’t bother) and waltz right in. Women and girls are told to “embrace their discomfort” because that helps you grow as a person (conveniently forgetting that this discomfort is basic common sense and self-preservation). Also, cross dressers count as being under the “trans umbrella“ according to the likes of Stonewall. Apparently we shouldn’t distinguish between genuine transgender people and cross dressers, because they’re one and the same.

Finally, I’ve seen more than once on this thread that rapists are just going to go ahead and rape if they want to, and protected single sex spaces just don’t matter because a predator will barge in if they want to. All I can say to that is... what the fuck kind of counter argument is that? We’re supposed to just give up on protecting women and girls because rapists gonna rape?

no, I didn’t mean it like that. I’m just saying that violent men and rapists are going to do it, regardless of location and the law. It even happens within relationships (speaking from experience).

I’m aware that men pretend to be trans women but that’s the keyword, pretend. They’re not genuinely trans, and trans women shouldn’t be lumped with those kinda men and be punished for it.

I may be wrong but I don’t think cross dressers (some men are heterosexual) and drag queens fall under the trans umbrella. I understand the discomfort of seeing a man in women’s loos, I’m just curious about trans women who are transitioning, like they haven’t had facial surgery, etc. yet but which bathroom should they use? They don’t feel safe using men’s, which leaves the disabled toilets, and that can be problematic for disabled people who genuinely need to use the designated bathroom. I think trans/NB designated bathrooms would be seen as “othering” and can be costly/time consuming, IDK.

 

[Mselvista]

@RosePetals I understand that some women have been made to feel worried and scared about this possibility.

But if a man wants to go into women's toilets or changing rooms they can do that now. They can just walk in.

And that had nothing to do with trans people who, as you say, have been using the appropriate toilet/changing room for years.

Changes to the GRA won't affect access to toilets or chsnging rooms as far as I know. You don't need to show id to get into the ladies' loos.

 

[gigi_93]

No, I absolutely understood the context. Imagine knowing your parent was not on board with the way you choose to identify yourself and finds you “bizarre” and “odd”. That’s so incredibly damaging.

 

[kat.becs]

Oh yes, it’s a real term. But it’s used to denigrate other women. Which is in my eyes sexist (like ‘bitch’ and a bunch of other words I won’t use).

For the record, I believe your son has the right to live his life as he wishes, and that he should feel safe and loved for who he is and however he wishes to express himself.

It's used in the wrong context to do that. But I've seen it used in the correct and incorrect way also in regards to men, too.

 

[kat.becs]

Okay but personally I think because of the systematic disadvantages periods cause biological women the fact that it is biological women who menstruate is always relevant. And as the original tweet was specifically about menstruation causing a disadvantage biological women was relevant to that tweet as it is just one struggle of many that systematically disadvantage women.

I mean I don't necessarily disagree but I personally also don't really think saying 'people who menstruate' was that much of an issue either. I personally thought JK was rude. Like my son said it's not really people saying 'women who menstuate' that bothers him and other trans people in his circle, it's people who argue when people say not only women do.

 

[Mselvista]

There's also more extreme things like trying to use the word "womxn" instead, although of course I know this is a very small minority of extreme people and not something that will ever happen or that many people want.

Should women be spelt womxn?

A new spelling of the word women had sparked a Twitter backlash.

www.bbc.co.uk

If there was as much focus on finding new words to describe biological men I think the erasing of the word women would be less of a feminist problem.

This is very very fringe as you are doubtless aware. This is not mainstream usage. No one is hesitant to use the term woman that I have heard of.

Womyn, wimmin - there have been discussions about rejecting the term woman (similar to herstory as an alternative to history) going back to the 70s and 2nd wave feminism. Were they attempts to erase women? Does everyone now use those terms 50 years later?

 

[Mselvista]

Interestingly enough, you honed in on a tiny part of my reply to you and ignored everything else. I'm still none the wiser as to why you think it's okay to moderate a thread and scold others for bringing this up on an influencer thread while you then go on to the very same thing yourself. Even after people had the decency to apologise to you.

I responded as I read your reply. I wanted to answer that part before reading the rest.

Commenting that a thread on Sali Hughes is maybe not the place for a long post which nearly fills my phone screen is not moderating the thread.

I didn't suggest any reference to the subject should be completely verboten.

Anyway I don't think my comments on the SH thread are the reason you take issue with me.

Hatred, prejudice or discrimination of transgender or transsexual people because of they are trans?
Is there another definition?

 

[Zenchick101]

Can't remember if it was mentioned here or I read it somewhere else so sorry if I'm repeating, but does anyone else remember when being bisexual was a huge trend in school? I'm 27 and I remember it being such a fad. It was the cool thing and lots of people jumped on the bandwagon. Some people probably did genuinely mistake themselves for being bi because maybe they thought their friend was hot or something. Of course some of them actually were bi but soooo many realised they were indeed straight by the time they finished school. I'm worried trans is the new bi but unfortunately this could cause more damage than kids thinking they're bi (again, of course some of these kids are genuinely trans).

yeah I have an inkling of that having been a thing

 

[Mselvista]

They both posted selfies from and made a big deal on social media about spending periods of time in DV shelters (which in itself is bizarre behaviour as these are supposed to be safe houses). They both have visible male characteristics (in the case of Danielle, short hair and beard stubble, and Tyler bragged about walking around in the morning with a visible bulge in their pants) and I think that this is where the line is crossed in self-ID legislation. It's likely to trigger women who reside there and so it's a line where sex should matter, not gender presentation.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse in many of your posts and I wonder what the motivation behind this is. I've personally been really interested reading the various viewpoints on this thread and some have been perspective-altering (in particular @kat.becs). On the other hand, trying to shut down quite legitimate concerns over sex-oppression, which has existed for millennia, is precisely what makes this entire debate so toxic.

ETA: my bad on getting DM's nationality wrong but the point about entering shelters remains the same.

I agree that @kat.becs has made really valuable contributions to the thread.

 

[Mselvista]

I guess I just don’t find that brand of humour funny?

You may not think Terf is a slur but in the video she said she did think it was one. Lots of people on both sides of the debate view it as a slur. As a woman who would probably be called one, I think it‘s sexist shorthand for a woman who doesn’t agree with TRAs.

She says "they call it a term of disparagement, which it is..."
If you'd made it past 5 minutes you may have seen she says it is not a slur.

 

[kat.becs]

And also maybe I'm wrong but I feel like saying 'people who menstruate' isn't reducing anyone down to biology/menstruation, but is actually doing the complete opposite?

 

[BostonFernGreen]

I feel like I’m the only person on this thread who agrees with your views. If I had a child and they were trans, I would fully support them in doing whatever they needed to do to be happy.

I watched a documentary once about trans children and a mother describing how she caught her 6 year old contemplating cutting his penis off as his dysphoria was that severe. She said that she would rather let hlive as a girl than to for her to kill herself.

Also I just don’t understand this whole idea of womanhood being threatened by the existence of trans women. Why do people always need to assume a minority is taking something away from you if they want to live their lives? It’s bad enough seeing “all lives matter” in response to BLM.

Im not calling anyone a TERF, I’m just seeing a lot of ignorant comments - that if you are born a man you are man and you will never be a woman. It’s so easy to speak this way when you will never experience what life is like for these people.

I’m trying to find someone to ask genuine questions to about this. Maybe I could ask you? I’m not trying to be confrontational, I genuinely want to understand.

 

[kat.becs]

Yeah I don't see any children going through surgery. Puberty blockers, maybe but they are reversible, right?

yes, they are reversible. If my son had been vocal about how servere his dysphoria was from that age I wouldn't have had anything against using blockers for him.

 

[petitspois]

I dont know how to set up a topic, but maybe the mods could set one up for this? Would be good to get our feelings out in the air. That said, it is not celeb gossip.

If you click on 'Forums' you will see 'post thread' on the right hand side - it's easy (even for me)

 

[Upsidefrown]

I’ve seen this argument rolled out before - “how many of us really know our chromosomes?!” It’s not a very clever argument. You know what your chromosomes are because your genitals developed either one way or the other in utero, and then your biological sex was observed at birth. There is no need to check chromosomes.

The world isn’t full of undiagnosed intersex people. Intersex isn’t the the same as transgender anyway.

Intersex conditions are very very rare, and it’s equally rare for them not to be diagnosed at birth (Caster Semenya, 800m athlete and XY chromosomes, is the exception to the rule, but CS was born black and poor in apartheid South Africa, so you can understand how that might have happened). So yes, I think we all DO know our chromosomes because that is almost never up for debate. There are not scores of people in the world walking around blissfully unaware that their chromosomes are wonky.

An interesting point to consider here is androgen insensitivity syndrome - XY chromosomes but lack of (or issue with) testosterone receptors causes the body to develop down the ‘female’ path in utero.

Ps. No mention of intersex here

 

[gigi_93]

I think it may depend on where you live and if you go private. I think in the US they’re a lot quicker to begin treatment (may be wrong) and what I’ve read online from trans women seems that waiting times through the NHS can mean waiting years to get access to hormone therapy.

I’d be interested to know exactly how it works and how long it takes. As I’ve said previously I’ve interacted with trans people through work (though not as much anymore) but it never seemed appropriate to ask

 

[Mselvista]

I find it offensive to be reduced to biology

My head has just fallen off.

I thought it was all about biology.

That biology trumps everything.

That you favoured the description "biological woman" over cis woman.

 

[Mercedes12]

What about those that don't have dysphoria and demand to be recognised as women? And they do exist.

I’m not entirely sure what it means to not have dysphoria and be trans. Is having dysphoria not the one thing that makes a person trans?

Or is that referring to men who are not trans but are pretending to be and asking to be recognised as women with other motives?

 

[Mercedes12]

I’m trying to find someone to ask genuine questions to about this. Maybe I could ask you? I’m not trying to be confrontational, I genuinely want to understand.

Sure? I’m not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to the subject but I’ll try and answer