Gender discussions

[Zenchick101]

It is ridiculous to coddle them. They are trans and will never be a "real" woman. Just how it is.

I saw one tweet from a FTM stating that.

 

[openbook1]

vote them out.

I no longer live there but keep up with what is going on.

 

[gukkies]

thanks for sharing your experience with this - I'm sure they don't lead an easy life at all. Since you have a lot of experience with trans people would you mind explaining how it's not a psychological disorder, I'm not trying to be rude but it comes off as one. It's hard to understand that thought process because when comparing it to some other psychological disorders it seems to have a similar disconnection element.

I obviously can't speak for the community personally, but only from what I've been told and what I've learned through my interactions with professionals in my future field of work. A lot of it is due to stigma, I believe. I know that for a lot of trans people, the language behind it initially being recognised as a psychological disorder felt dangerous as there were experiences of trans people being sent to psychologists to receive therapy to "cure" them. I know a lot of trans people who liken it to conversion therapy, and to the feeling of it being something that has to be reversed or fixed. A few of my trans friends recall their parents doing some Googling (before icd-11), and sending them to be "fixed" after reading that it was a psychological disorder. They had removed it as being pathological and started to recognise gender dysphoria as a sexual health condition, defined as 'gender incongruence' to explain the incongruence between gender identity and their experiences, and their biological sex. I think they explained gender dysphoria as not meaning impaired and that it didn't necessarily have to include distress over gender, hence the change. They also explained how it was important to recognise that a lot of what was felt internally by trans people was due to lack of support and negative social attitudes. So the change in language was greatly pushed in order to help break down the stigma and dismantle the discrimination, thus leading to it being a condition because they wanted it to still be recognised as something that may require treatment or help. I hope that explained it a little! I know there's more to it and I'm sure a trans person could explain it far better than me, but...

 

[no-no]

Also, I actually thought that she was trans way before she said anything.

Me too, massive head and every look was drag, but I didn’t realise it was public knowledge now! I’m so out of the loop

 

[kat.becs]

@kat.becs personal question, absolutely fine if you dont want to/cant answer - Why does your son use the word 'transgender' instead of 'transsexual', if he wants to change sex? Is it just a modern/old language thing, or does is his issue with his gender not his sex?

Not sure to be honest. I don't think there's a difference so I'd assume it's just a language thing. I think transgender is a more umbrella term and transexual comes under it but I'm not sure. He's just always used transgender, I don't see many people using transsexual at all, apart from older trans people which definitely makes me think it's just changed with time.

 

[Zenchick101]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

thanks for sharing your experience with this - I'm sure they don't lead an easy life at all. Since you have a lot of experience with trans people would you mind explaining how it's not a psychological disorder, I'm not trying to be rude but it comes off as one. It's hard to understand that thought process because when comparing it to some other psychological disorders it seems to have a similar disconnection element.

 

[openbook1]

Calling King a TERF now. They are so predictable.

 

[kat.becs]

I didn't watch the video so this isn't within the context of the video, but TERF is a real term as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't use it, if someone was transphobic to my son I'd call them out on being transphobic but I don't think the term is necessarily a slur. Obviously it's thrown around too much but if someone claims to be a feminist then calls trans people 'it' or says they're not valid then I'd be hard pressed to say they weren't..trans excluding feminists....

 

[Mercedes12]

I really don’t get this focus on menstruation. Not only is it insensitive to trans men who menstruate and non-binary, what about women with health problems meaning they don’t or never have menstruated? Fertility difficulties can be painful enough without a huge emphasis being placed on someone’s womanhood being determined by a regular menstrual cycle.

With regards to women’s shelter and DV safe houses, I can see how the issue becomes more complex so I could understand exploring it further in those specific scenarios but the majority of women are fortunate enough to not live in those facilities.

The opinions I’m seeing are from people who do not live in these places and are placing their concern on shared spaces like gym changing rooms and public bathrooms. I just think if you use communal changing rooms and get naked, the reality is you are surrounded by strangers. Yes they may be biologically “women” but you don’t know these people. Even though they may be less of a physical threat, a non-trans woman could still be watching you in inappropriately or getting a kick out of seeing people out of their clothes.

In my experience now, most gyms have cubicles to use if you want to change in private or if you’re really concerned you could use a toilet cubicle. If you enter a changing room and there is a trans woman present and you personally feel uncomfortable - utilise these options instead?

I don’t know any stats but I’m gonna guess male on trans women crime is far higher than the instances where these predators pretend to be trans women. Rejecting them from female changing spaces - would they be expected to change in the male changing rooms? I’m gonna guess that this would cause a lot more violence than allowing them to use the female facilities. We are so concerned with protecting women but trans women are so vulnerable in society already and we are willing to punish them because of what men do?

 

[4everb1tchin]

Can anyone provide evidence of people denying sex exists? Like is there solid proof (not tweets and tumblr posts from a few extremists) that there’s a conspiracy to wipe out the idea of sex and strip away women’s rights? I think people are confusing sex and gender, nobody is denying the existence of biological sex

Also can someone explain to me why an article saying ‘People have periods’ instead of ‘Women have periods’ should be considered an attack on my womanhood? Genuinely curious and open to respectful discussion

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Lost another FB friend but gained another friend private messaging me that she also wanted to share support for JK but is too scared.
This is so sad

I'm from Ireland so in recent years we've had the referendums on both marriage equality and abortions rights. I'm unreservedly pro-gay marriage and pro-choice, but I had quite a few friends on FB who were vocally opposite. I heavily disagreed with their opinions but I didn't put my fingers in my ears and go la la la and unfriend them. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I can defend them, why can't they?

Sending Irish solidarity

 

[kat.becs]

Maybe biology wasn't quite the correct word - reduced to a biological function perhaps? For example I would find it equally uncomfortable for a biological man to be called an "ejaculator" or some such

Okay but the majority are not asking for women to be called that? Just as very little people are asking for men to be called that. Like I said previously.

But in the context of discussions about periods there's nothing wrong with using 'menstruators/people who menstruate'. It's not just referring to biological women and it's not reducing anyone down to anything. It's just relevant for the conversation at the time. Just the same as in a conversation about.... idk, women who don't menstruate for example. Being called 'women/people who don't menstruate' isn't really reducing them to the fact they don't. It would be if it wasn't relevant to the conversation. For me I see it just the same as saying e.g 'people with depression'. they're not being reduced to the fact they have depression, but if it's relevant to the subject then it's important to mention that people do.

Thank you for your replies on this topic; it is truly beneficial to understand yours and your son’s viewpoints in this area.

I think this IS an issue though; there is a particularly loud and vocal component (on Twitter and other SM) who advocate this use all the time.

Surely this is doing more damage than good? It’s naivety at best to feel that the “average jo/joe” in our country are fully on board and accepting of many of the concepts and terms discussed in this forum (cis/non binary etc) The lens being focused on this vocal minority stating that women isn’t the correct usage etc. May cause alarm?

Oh I know that there is a small minority of people asking for the term to replace 'women' all the time, but they are just that - a very small minority. I think most recognise that it makes no sense to do that.

 

[Mselvista]

I've found the Women's Place Uk page. It's about Stonwall campaigning to remove single sex exemptions.
There is no reference to removing sex as a protected characteristic.

Evidence of calls to remove single sex exemptions from Equality Act - Woman's Place UK

Violence against women and sex discrimination still exist. Women need reserved places, separate spaces and distinct services.

womansplaceuk.org

Haha, I do too and I'm sure we all do. How about you spend your own time and energy searching for the resources YOU want instead of riding others' coattails??

Posts here have included screenshots of Twitter accouny as sources for informstion. Have you suggested that posters citing such evidence should do *their* own research and stop "riding others' coattails"?

As I have said I understand that gc activists have firmly held beliefs. I think that some of those beliefs are based on myths. I also think that gc orthodoxy frightens women unnecessarily and makes life more difficult for trans people.

I have said that I think women are being lied to about improvements in trans people's lives putting them (women) at risk.
A poster gave some examples to counter this and illustrate that women are not being lied to. One dud not say what was claimed (the Stonewall one), neither did a page on the Women's Place Uk site I was referred to.
The next example was incorrect- Hackney Council have not removed sex as a protected characteristic (how could they? It's laid down in legislation).
The other info re Danish prisons made no reference to trans people, self id etc. It was about women being sexually assaulted in mixed prisons. It was nothing to do with trans inmates.

Women are scared of trans women because of gc rhetoric. Trans people are scared because of the hostile environment which is one consequence of gc rhetoric.

 

[Zenchick101]

People jump to that conclusion, it's ridiculous. Like I said previously, people said my son's dress sense 'made sense' when he came out, as well as his choice in toys as a child. Definitely a load of bollocks. I mean, don't get me wrong - for him it was probably a factor, but to say it 'made sense' is bollocks because there is PLENTY of non-trans people who do not 'conform' and it in no way means anything on its own.

I think the fact he seriously hated his body and did things to try and stop the changes happening to his body that have done permanent damage were more obvious 'signs'.

I enjoyed male toys too. So 100% agree.

 

[Mselvista]

I think Contrapoints videos are a good starting point if you're interested.
She's not an uncontroversial figure by any means and some consider her problematic but this video and her one titled "Pronouns" are good primers imo for cis people new to this stuff and wanting to learn more.
(Her one on incels is really good too)

 

[bubbletea123]

I know a transman who hasn't gone through any hormone or other surgical changes. Their dysphoria exists and they hate their body, but they said surgery is something they fought for and didn't gain access too. Eventually they decided they wouldn't go down that route because while they have gender dysphoria, it's elevated enough by socially transitioning that they don't feel it's 100% necessary for them to live as they want to live. Sure, he still has the biological body of a female but he is still a transman.

I am confused. I thought posters further up said that trans people don't have gender dysphoria? So, which is it? It does exist or doesn't?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I could not love this more!

 

[Mselvista]

I'm not teasing. I use the term cis to describe myself. But let's park that.

Ok, I understand what you've said so far about criticism of gender. So where can I read or otherwise learn more critiquing gender by so-called GC feminists. Is there anyone in particular that you would recommend?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

The bathroom debate is a tricky one for me.

Like I said previously, my son looks like a boy. He’d be accepted in the men’s bathroom as a boy easily. Unless someone looked at him real closely but I doubt that would happen. But he worries about that, I think because of the whole bathroom debate saga. He has also had an incident of being told to leave at school which I think has scared him. (But I did tell him to stick to the disabled bathroom at school as people knew he was trans- and either sex probably wouldn’t enjoy him using the bathroom. It sucked for him a little but of course he understood).

But if he goes into the female bathroom, which obviously aligns with his biological sex, which he does if there’s no other option and if he’s desperate, people give him the looks and he’s been told to leave there too before.

Obviously the solution is a unisex bathroom which is sometimes provided but not always. And if it is then it’s in the form of a disabled bathroom and then he can get dirty looks then also. So while I understand that people may not want transwomen in the women’s, sometimes right now there’s no choice. If they went into the men’s they’d get abuse and if they go into the women’s, nobody would even notice. It’s not always for some necessarily about wanting to be seen as the gender they identify as, but about not wanting to deal with conflict or speculation.

Obviously this is why places need the middle ground option but I still think even that wouldn’t solve the dilemma completely because trans people could still use the bathroom of the gender they identify as without people even being aware that they’re trans or don’t have the genitals for that sex.

I don’t know. And please don’t get me wrong at all, I completely get why women are concerned and I’m not trying to diminish them.

Thank you for posting this. Truly.

 

[Zenchick101]

exactly
This YouTube video is worth a watch x
( cases in the Uk stats etc)

these are crimes that men are more susceptible of doing.