Gender discussions

[Upsidefrown]

@SqualorVictoria
For any misunderstanding, to quote you here: ‘To me, transwomen is someone who's in the process of taking hormones or had surgery. If you have a penis you are still a man’

This is not correct and would be extremely offensive to a trans woman (perhaps one who is yet to begin a physical transition or has chosen not to, both equally valid scenarios).

I have spent a long time reading through these posts and it has been fascinating to see an open forum sharing a wider variety of viewpoints and opinions. I have taught Gender within an A Level Psychology course for many years and it my job and duty to continue to educate on all aspects of both vernacular and current case studies.

I strongly believe that we are entitled to our opinion - however, sometimes opinions are based are incorrect information - see above - and to me, this would indicate further education. You don’t have to agree with what is said, but it doesn’t seem fair to quote ‘penis = man’ etc when this is now not technically nor legally the case

 

[4everb1tchin]

Hey
Because "people" don't get periods. Biological women get periods and that can't be argued.

There are absolute nut jobs trying to argue that "sex" isn't binery. https://massivesci.com/articles/sex-gender-intersex-transgender-identity-discrimination-title-ix/

Why So Many Progressives Are Arguing That Biological Sex Doesn't Exist

The right doesn't have a monopoly on science denialism

jessesingal.substack.com

They are dangerous.

Trans men are people and they sometimes have periods. I don’t see the harm in trying to be sensitive to that fact that not all people who have periods are women. They maybe biologically female but they’re not women so ‘people who have periods’ would be the correct statement.

Nobody can deny science, sex exist, there’s no denying it. I just don’t understand why there’s so much focus on the minority crazies. There’s no way they’re going to be able to eradicate biological sex

 

[kat.becs]

The way some of these activitists go about campaigning for trans rights directly affects women’s rights because they want us to sacrifice our spaces instead of going about getting their own that cater specifically to their needs. That’s where this whole discussion stems from.

Trans people can and should campaign for their rights, they should campaign for healthcare and their own safe spaces or what ever else they feel they need. Women did and now we have services available to many women who need them during times of crisis or desperation, at least in the western world.

Sports is an issue where women are having their rights infringed. The whole reason we have women’s sports in the first place is because biological males on average are stronger and faster, their bone structure, bone density, lung capacity and heart size are not things that disappear with hormone therapy. No matter how much a woman trains, she will not be able to match up physically to her Male equivalent, It wouldn’t be competitive for women without women’s sports and we had to fight for them to exist. Women’s football was banned by the FA for fifty years for goodness sake. However we now have transwomen competing and dominating sports in which they were mediocre when competing as men. It is happening on an Olympic level and grassroots. Women are being injured, losing team spots and records have been broken on a disproportionate scale by these transwomen because women simply cannot compete with their biology no matter how hard they train and im sorry but that’s not fair and it goes against the whole reason women’s sports exist in the first place. Identify how you wish but your body will always remain as the sex you were born as with all the physical attributes typical of your sex and important to acknowledge this, especially when it comes to sports.

I’ve been shouted down many times for saying biological males don’t belong in women’s sports but I stand by it and I always will, because it’s grossly unfair that it’s allowed to happen.

Don’t get me wrong I understand everything you’ve said. It’s not a black and white issue.

My point is that just like the fact there’s some activists who disregard women (never denied that there is), there’s also many activists who disregard trans people completely too.

Some comments here have been verging on that for me personally or have just been disrespectful I think But that’s my view.

 

[Hepaticus]

About half of male and a third female will have attempted by their early twenties. It’s incredibly difficult as those teen years now are so punctuated by time spent online, on social media and being exposed to the views and opinions which contribute so much to declining mental health.

 

[Mercedes12]

I just feel like sadly, there are always going to be evil men who will try to sexually assault and rape women. Remove this option of posing as trans to gain access to women only spaces and they will find another way.

In the traditional style of being transsexual, yes it was someone with gender dysphoria. Now anyone can refer to themselves as a woman just because they put on a dress and have pronouns in their bio. Those sinister men who are fetishising women are now demanding access to our private spaces. I posted a video a few pages back that shows these frightening men exist. I can't make it any clearer- its those men we are frightened of, not people with actual gender dysphoria

There is term in the trans community called transcum, so it proves that "trans people" who don't have dysphoria exist



Huh? What did I say before?

Your previous post referred to those who were yet to undergo surgery or hormone therapy and said these were men cross dressing. I was stating that I disagree and those with dysphoria who are pre-treatment for whatever reason are trans women.

I also don’t agree that these predatory men claiming to be trans to harm others can be classed as part of the trans community or as trans people - I think this an insult to trans women. These predators are liars and they are men - they have nothing to do with those with genuine dysphoria.

 

[openbook1]

It these people, people that suffer from GD, that do need our support and compassion.
not cross dressers trying to get access to bathrooms.

spot on.

I really didn’t think this was a problem - Live and let live etc but it is.
our and our daughters spaces, safety and opportunities are under threat. The growth in uni sex

signed x

I have also signed.

 

[Mselvista]

why I don't feel we are being "lied to" by GC people. Stonewall lobbied to have sex removed as a protected characteristic and for the removal of single sex spaces. Lot

Danielle Muscato did indeed film herself at a women's shelter (interested to note that you refer to her as "himself"). As I said, my bad for wrongly thinking that it was in Canada, but nonetheless she uploaded this to YouTube:

Whether it happened in Canada or the USA, if you genuinely believe that it would be ok for UK shelters to turn away teenage boys who arrived with their mothers, but allow this person to be in the space, that's fine. It's not about "passing", but it's about a double standard that reforms to the GRA would exacerbate.

You are indeed being deliberately obtuse and selectively picking on what you consider to be inconsistencies. But I'm actively ignoring this thread now, as opposed to unfollowing it, and will be doing the same with your posts.

It's a shame because I was really learning from other posters who ostensibly share your stance on this topic.

I've watched the video - it's described as a homeless shelter. That is not the same thing as a women's refuge.

 

[soberpanda]

Im not reading back I imagine I’ll get pissed so this likely isn’t relevant to current topic but I came across this on Twitter.

Love Angela Davis

amazing woman. She spoke about this perfectly.

 

[Uninteresteduna]

Free to boast about murder and future intentions from murder but use the wrong pronoun and you'll get lynched and fired. Why are people like these not sanctioned?

exactly
This YouTube video is worth a watch x
( cases in the Uk stats etc)

 

[Zenchick101]

That’s androgyny. Or... it used to be until it was considered not cool or special enough.

What bugs me about non-binary females is the way they describe themselves: that they want to be viewed as a person first and foremost, that they want to be free of the oppressions and gender stereotypes heaped upon women. That they don’t FEEL like women (insert massive eye roll here). I saw a video on my Twitter feed - might have been PinkNews or something - saying ALL of that and I nearly threw my phone out the window.

Because if that is what it means to be non-binary, we’re all non-binary, surely? Hooray!

But it’s not just that. I always detect a huge dose of internalised misogyny and contempt for (what they see as) regular/basic women who must LOVE being objectified and oppressed, cat-called and paid less. Like we are happy with it. But not the NB females - they’re better than that.

Basically, it’s like the “not like the other girls” memes on a massive scale.

make it make sense. I'm serious I don't get it.

 

[Zenchick101]

Just saw a very aggravating article in Jezebel calling JK misogynist and purposefully misgendering her as ‘he’ to make some sort of woke point. Turns out the author is a trans woman.
Bah! I shouldn’t have even clicked through on Twitter.

that's funny in a twisted way

 

[openbook1]

Your telling me. I am now shocked but in a totally different way. These people really know no bounds.

Just checked the glinner.com thing, it’s definitely true it took me straight to mermaids. Does this mean his website has been hacked? I have no words for what I’m witnessing right now. No words.

I don't really know what Mermaids is but I do not get a good feeling about it.

 

[bubbletea123]

I haven't watched that one but there is definitely the SJW who are just hell-bent on being victims it seems. The trans-med side makes more sense to me. I don't really understand how you can be trans and not experience the gender dysphoria... it's gender dysphoria that causes the extreme distress due to their biological sex. So for me considering that transgender people are people who experience extreme distress due to their biological sex.... I don't understand how you can be trans without that. But I don't know

I have no doubt my son is trans because of things he's done to himself and said about himself. It's horrible to hear how unhappy he is about his body - but if he was comfortable in his body and still claimed to be trans I'd hell-bent on making sure he was self-diagnosing correctly. Even now despite the fact he knows and we know, I'm still making sure he has therapy and doesn't rush into anything. Not that he can, waiting lists are long on the NHS. He's not in a good place though, so I worry about what that wait could do to him.

You sound like an amazing mum.

 

[Zenchick101]

Statement from CrowdJustice

None

www.crowdjustice.com

I don’t know why it doesn’t show the amount raised on that link but it’s a lot and I’ve just made a donation

oh I saw that, she tweeted that she raised 48k pounds and it was taken down by the site but she wont give up

 

[gigi_93]

I just cannot imagine caring if someone wants to refer to me as cis. It’s not taking anything away from me. I’m a woman and nothing can take that away. I’m comfortable. There is a lot of transphobia in this thread. Also a lot of good points raised by some re: the sport thing.

And crying is just an expression. You can interchange it with whining if you like.

 

[Mselvista]

Mselvista, I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what you want from me at this stage. I like Kristina's video, it made sense to me. She is pro feminist clearly and a strong trans right activists. I'm not saying she is the ultimate authority and of course there will be trans people with opposing views but I'm fully on the side of Kristina. Those are my views too and I fully share her concerns

That's fine. You've recommended a video.
It's that you twice mentioned Harrison's trans status. If this wasn't to lend credibility to her stance, why was it?
I will watch the video now.
Re what I want from you? Absolutely nothing. But I will comment on your posts if I wish.
What I do not want is for "gender critics" to dominate the debate here. I do not want this forum (and I only really comment on one thread) is to become synonymous with transphobia as Mumsnet now is.
Your views are not obscure. I can read them in uk tabloids and broadsheets from both ends of the political spectrum. Your views are mainstream and, in my opinion, demonise a marginalised vulnerable group of society.
I am no an expert on any of this nor do I claim to be. But "gender critical" claims do not make sense to me logically and do not appear to be borne out by reality. I have no wish to attempt to speak for or instead of trans people on this but I also tecognise that I have the luxury of emotional distance from the subject. I am not a member of the group being attacked. But I see trans people being attacked and I think it is wrong.

I've attached some images that hopefully explain why I don't feel we are being "lied to" by GC people. Stonewall lobbied to have sex removed as a protected characteristic and for the removal of single sex spaces. Lots of companies and local authorities have also adopted their guidance even though it isn't law.

A couple of tweets about the failed mixed sex prisons in Denmark (I don't read Danish so I haven't fact checked the article).

There is also the Tavistock whistleblowers who resigned over their concerns about the treatment of children. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/

I'm not sure if I'm misreading it but I can't see any reference to removing sex as a protected characteristic on the Stonewall screenshot.

I've attached some images that hopefully explain why I don't feel we are being "lied to" by GC people. Stonewall lobbied to have sex removed as a protected characteristic and for the removal of single sex spaces. Lots of companies and local authorities have also adopted their guidance even though it isn't law.

A couple of tweets about the failed mixed sex prisons in Denmark (I don't read Danish so I haven't fact checked the article).

There is also the Tavistock whistleblowers who resigned over their concerns about the treatment of children. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/

I have found the original Danish articles and translated them using Google translate. They're about the building of a women's prison because of the prevalence of sexual assault in Denmark's mixed sex prisons. No mention of trans women (or men), nothing to do with self id (I've skimmed them obviously, I might have missed something).
Hackney's Equality and Cohesion policy dated November 2018 but link on their Equality and Diversity page lists sex as a protected characteristic.
I've already mentioned that I don't think the screenshot you have included says that Stonewall are campaigning to have sex removed as a protected characteristic.

Minister: Kvindefængsel kan løse problem med sexchikane

Kvindelige indsatte bliver ofte chikaneret eller tvunget ud i prostitution, viser undersøgelse.

www.dr.dk

Snart begynder byggeriet af Danmarks første kvindefængsel

Kvinder er en udsat gruppe i fængslerne, mener Kriminalforsorgen. Nu skal der findes en entreprenør, der kan bygge Danmarks første kvindefængsel.

www.tv2east.dk

Equality and diversity overview | Hackney Council

Learn about our work on equality, diversity and inclusion. Check our policies, progress, reporting and how we promotes fairness.

hackney.gov.uk

I don't frequent Reddit or Mumsnet, @Mselvista, so I wouldn't know. And no need to be patronising. Ireland has a considerably smaller population than the UK so I'm not sure how comparable statistics are. Ireland was also home to major abuse scandals in the Catholic church what with paedophile priests and Magdalene laundries but these stories took decades to emerge because, surprise surprise, it was disenfranchised groups who were affected.

Are you suggesting that there have been incidents and they have been covered up? To protect powerful trans people?

 

[kat.becs]

I wasn't referring to the bathrooms when I was saying it was black and white. It's black and white that the men in the video I posted are not women

Okay but I never said that was black and white at all.

 

[rosemarina]

I literally don’t have any words anymore View attachment 151112

The tone of the BS post is so “white male”, isn’t it?

 

[Mselvista]

The phrase I used was "the language of transphobia".
JKR said in her piece that she had read widely on this issue and sought to present herself as a neutral outsider who had read stuff from "both sides".
However the language she used was a red flag that this was not the case.

If you read FB post and the poster repeatedly said "moslem" instead of muslim would that set of alarm bells? Their defence would be that it is a correct alternative traditional spelling. If you suggested they were racist they may say "Islam isn't a race". I have only seen racists insist on using the term "moslem". If they insisted they weren't racist I think oh I got it wrong . I don't think that racists get to self define - someone saying they are not racist is not going to persuade.

Similarly someone saying "I'm not transphobic but..." does not mean I think that person could not possibly be transphobic.

As for the language - I haven't got the blog to hand but JKR's repeated references to trans activists (posting on twitter, especially posting offensive insults is not activism) and her saying "biological" and "natal" women. This is not neutral language. It is the language of "gender critism" aka transphobia. The term Rowling wants is cis. Cisgender is in the OED. The refusal to use a neutral non loaded term is, again, to me indicate that JKR has being read transphobic material.

Comments on "people who menstruate" are dishonest. How often have you seen that or similar terms in the wild? The phrase is used, as I'm sure you all know, to be inclusive. What should it be replaced by? Women? But we know not all women menstruate so discussion of, for example medical research relating to those who menstruate then being relabelled as about women would be wrong and the conclusions would be wrong. Do you think it should be replaced by "women who menstruate"? But that, as I am sure you know would not include trans men and non-binary folk, so again would be misleading and change the meaning re the group the research related to.

Some may think what I've said is absurd.
I think the idea that "terf" is a gendered insult used to silence women is absurd. "Shut up terf" is the equivalent of saying "fuck off racist". Many think you shouldnt "debate" racists. Many feel that there is no point debating "gender critical" feminists. Their views are legitimised by being deemed worthy of debate, those views are very entrenched and not open to change and you will end up exhausted, hsving wasted your time and possibly given platform to a trsnsphobe in the process.

Apologies for all the typos/wrong tenses used above - had only just woken up and didn't read it back before posting.

 

[RosePetals]

I'm going to read all that!

Is there are tl:dr version

I thought someone may be able to link to a starting point outlining the GC stance. A primer, if you will. Or perhaps something that influenced their thinking.
I doubt anyone read all the attached and then came to a conclusion.
If not perhaps a gc feminist who has influenced their thinking.


In a medical context people with prostates is completely appropriate.

I've not read it all either! I would say fairplay for women is the most accessible starting point though! I had a scroll though of some of the resources on the 4thwave megalist and just read the ones that stood out to me, I've probably read less than half.

I've definitely read some other simpler bits but unfortunately don't save the links and can't remember what they were all called.

A good book is also the invisible women, which highlights the overlooked differencesw between biological men and women and how this is detrimental to women in many ways