Gender discussions

[RealisticallySpeaking]

Unfortunately I don't think so. It's a high-speed train to affirmation and hormones/blockers, from what I can gather.

I’m new in this thread so just wanted to add this.

I think that you are talking about puberty blockers and they are gave quite fast. Because they postpone or delay puberty in children. They stop the development of features that they considered their wrong sex, giving them more time to explore their identity. Later that person can go ahead with transition (easier and sometimes with less surgeries) or resign and go through puberty later.

In 2019, a study in the journal Pediatrics found that access to pubertal suppression during adolescence was associated with a lower odds of lifetime suicidality among transgender people.
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725

 

[Mercedes12]

Honestly, I don't understand that side of the community either. They seem to think they don't experience dysphoria, at least of their body - but if they feel the need to transition then I think they must experience it at least on some level, but are just mislabeling it as normal discomfort. I'm not sure on it, to be honest. I have no doubt that my son is trans due to his dysphoria but he knows trans guys who don't really have it but still claim to know that they aren't their assigned sex and feel a 'discomfort' in being identified as their assigned sex and want to transition and are much happier now they have.
I just think they're possibly misunderstanding the definition but

yeah I agree, surely any discomfort with the gender you were born with or a feeling of “knowing” you are the opposite sex must be dysphoria - what else could it be?

 

[BostonFernGreen]

Ok sure. I appreciate it. I’m not trying to be antagonistic.

 

[Zenchick101]

I’m no scientist but I find it hard to believe you can just stop or delay puberty, an integral part of growing from child to adult, with little to no side effects or health issues, and that you can delay puberty for years until you’re pretty much an adult and then stop taking them or better yet skip the puberty process altogether and take cross-sex hormones, and everything just picks up where it left off as if nothing happened. I don’t buy it at all.

Jazz Jennings had underdeveloped genitalia as a result of them, which made an already brutal gender reassignment surgery even more so, just to name one high profile example. These drugs are used to treat some types of cancer they aren’t gentle on the body at all. I dread to think of the issues caused by the increased use of these drugs in years to come. Puberty is not something to be messed about with imo.

yeah it's some powerfull shit. I don't have a period right now because of my meds.

 

[PoleStar]

Hang on I thought the objection was to men "simply saying they're women" to gain access to changing rooms?
Now trans women have to use a seperate space?
Will they be questioned about their genitalia before being allowed entry?
Or have to show documentation?
You understand this will affect cis women who are tall, post masectomy, present as butch or in some cases are not conventionally attractive? Some cis women have already reported being challenged when using public toilets.


Ok. But again what have Muscato and Tyler (still no idea) got to do with the point you are making?

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[kat.becs]

The fact your comment got more likes that @kat.becs who said that they aren't men, but transwomen, is actually saddening to see.

Lol I wasn't gonna say it but ...

 

[Mselvista]

It is *precisely* because of people like you that women are afraid to voice concerns in real life.

Sorry, what do you mean by people like me?

Have I been abusive? Called anyone names?

It's interesting that you say that, I've had private messages from more than one person saying they daren't get involved in this discussion because of the ferocity of the "gender critical" activists. That they're scared to join in but congratulating me on my comments.

It is *precisely* because of people like you that women are afraid to voice concerns in real life.

I'm a woman.

There have been comments about wanting to discuss this. I'm discussing it. Perhaps gc feminists want an echo chamber to discuss this stuff with each other. That fair enough. But I can comment as long as I'm not breaching guidelines. Crikey, anyone would think you were trying to silence me for not subscribing to :gender critical" orthodoxy.

Interestingly I've just seen on Twitter that the body shop has over 60 results for the word "men" but 0 for the word "women".

16 mentions of "women" in 2020 so far vs 1 of "men". You can count the totals mentions if you like.


https://twitter.com/search?q=from:@thebodyshopuk women&s=09

https://twitter.com/search?q=from:@thebodyshopuk men&s=09

 

[PoleStar]

NAMALT = Not All Men Are Like That.

Edit: it grinds my gears when having a discussion about male violence and someone always pipes up to remind everyone that lots of men are lovely, because god forbid we hurt their feelings by talking about male violence.

Oh well excuse me then, heaven forbid anyone should "grind your gears". This is a gender discussion thread, it's not about male violence, although I realise that is part of the equation. However, I don't think it does any harm to recognise that men are not automatically demons purely because they are men.

 

[gigi_93]

I’m well aware of all of that thank you. I’ve dealt with plenty that wouldn’t have happened to me if I wasn’t a woman, including DV. Yet I still manage to be welcoming and understanding of trans women and I don’t have my womanhood threatened by their mere existence.

 

[Mselvista]

Ok sure. I appreciate it. I’m not trying to be antagonistic.

Sorry I sound snotty in my reply.

 

[kat.becs]

The solution as I see it is an additional unisex changing room.

Okay that makes sense.

but then what about the protection of those in the unisex changing rooms? That's why I don't feel like there is one right answer to this at all. It's so complicated. I just see so many people unwilling to even consider the opposite side of it without considering they're trying to take from women, which is not the case at all. I don't mean you, btw. Just generally.

 

[gukkies]

Im not reading back I imagine I’ll get pissed so this likely isn’t relevant to current topic but I came across this on Twitter.


Love Angela Davis

"Black trans women constitute the target of racist violence more consistently than any other community. We're talking about state violence, we're talking about individual violence, stranger violence, intimate violence. So if we want to develop intersectional perspective, the trans community is showing us the way..... And I don't think we would be where we are today, encouraging ever larger numbers of people to think within an abolitionist train, had not the trans community taught us that it is possible to effectively challenge that which is considered the very foundation of our sense of normalcy. So if it is possible to challenge the gender binary, then we can certainly, effectively, resist prisons, and jails, and police."

Amazing woman and lifetime activist. Amazing perspective. She uses her voice to fight the important battles, highlighting the significance of positively making trans people the centre of a lot of politics. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[kat.becs]

But if a man walks in and I run out and alert the reception staff to be told that he identifies as a woman I’d be shamed for being transphobic! Can’t you see this is the crux of the issue? Woman DON’T KNOW if men are a threat to them, thus the need for single sex spaces. It’s the old poisoned m&m analogy. If we let men in who identify as women, we may as well just change to unisex spaces.

I’m not arguing that. But I see so many people saying the law is going to see a huge increase in sexual assaults, etc which I can’t imagine is the case at all. Sure it may provide another setting for some men to assault but I can’t see that it will cause an increase at all.

No, women don’t know if men are a threat to them, I’m not negating that, but you don’t know if women are either?

 

[Hepaticus]

Crime statistics (look at the “results” section on crime if you are too lazy to find it):

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

Transgender population four times higher in prison than in the general public:

Access Restricted

(There is more to come, I can only paste one thing at a time on my phone.)

Now in return, please provide evidence for your extraordinary claim that declaring a female identity magically exempts a male from male criminal tendencies.

I also note that you failed to answer a single one of my points, except to boast about your job and scream about how painful my facts are for you to read.

I’m not sure what your boasting about working in medicine has got to do with crime statistics. You are a layperson.

Also, please don’t misgender me

Annoying when people misgender isn’t it?!

The articles you quote are to support which of your previous points?

Finally, when did I claim that?

Annoying when people misgender isn’t it?!

The articles you quote are to support which of your previous points?

Finally, when did I claim that?

Oh! I’m sorry! You’re disputing my claim that it is still a tiny percentage of the transgender population who show criminal activity! Got you! As the study you’ve quoted shows, it’s about the same as we see in a control male group, so, thankfully, as I said, a tiny proportion of the demographic I do appreciate that interpreting data is a minefield. Even good journalists do it all the time- it makes for sensationalist reading doesn’t it? But the downside is “beliefs” and fears which become ingrained.

Above and beyond the crime rate linked to the mental health issues associated with ones identity, it is the self harm and suicide which is a far more common outcome. I suppose you and I focus on two very different sides of the coin. I see and deal with the devastation and you are focussed on what you see as a real and imminent threat. I hope those studies you’ve quoted can help reassure you.

I’ll just paste the part of the study you’ve shared to help highlight that, which I hope you will find reassuring!
“In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females. By contrast, female-to-males were at a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls and did not differ from male controls, which suggests increased crime proneness in female-to-males after sex reassignment.”

 

[openbook1]

Joe's a fucking legend

Love Joe

 

[Zenchick101]

Off topic from recent conversation - but this is a great video at explaining the gender non-conforming vs trans and the damage it can do to assume someone who doesn't conform is trans. I mean to post it earlier when we were on the topic - but I couldn't remember his username. My son watches his videos and I find them quite informative and they help me understand a lot of topics.

he explained his points clearly and he's right.

 

[Mselvista]

And you're right, no one mans the doors for most single sex establishments but currently if there was a man faffing round in the women's changing room at my gym I could have him removed. It would not be so simple if Self ID came into law.

In this scenario how are getting him removed? Phoning or visiting the front desk? Calling the police?
Is the likelihood not that you would be overpowered before help came? Prevented from calling help? This is the case now and would be post any GRA amendment. I don't see what material difference an amended GRA would make in this instance. The difference an amendment would make is to trans people in making it less onerous to change documentation.

 

[gigi_93]

There’s some very fragile femininity in this thread isn’t there? Or is it just hatred of trans people hiding behind feminism? Hmm I think there’s an acronym for that..

One thing that I agree is extremely unfair is trans women being able to take part in sport with biological women. Don’t know the best way around that short of banning it which won’t happen now. Also that Fallon Fox is a complete dickhead.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I posted about this term yesterday. Here it is again

There are people who are trans and open about not having dysphoria

Kat.Becs I don't think it's a case of people having it and simply misclassifying it. Based on what was said in the blog post I shared, it sounds like you can't not know you have it

 

[barmj]

If trans women don’t feel safe using the men’s, and this means they have to use the women’s, why are women told to get over it (not putting words in your mouth but that’s what it boils down to) if they feel uncomfortable at a trans woman using the loo?

there needs to be a third space, a trans bathroom. It’s not othering. It’s common sense and safety. IMO

you make a good point. we do deserve a designated space for safety and I understand the concerns re. letting trans women access women’s toilets. I’m just reading through this thread and it’s giving me a lot to think about. I actually don’t think trans women should be allowed to participate in female sport events, there is a total disadvantage. I just think we should look for solutions where trans people have rights without impinging women only spaces, rights and safety.

JK Rowling made a point about sex based illnesses/diseases; I disagree because if a trans woman has prostate cancer, she’ll still have treatment for it. Just don’t deny treatments and misgender. Gender dysphoria is painful enough without being afflicted with sex based illnesses. It’s similar to (bio) men who have breast cancer, they still get treatment and aren’t misgendered.

ETA: @maytoseptember, just read your post! just wanted to make it clear that I’m not ignoring you.