Gender Discussions #4

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I hope no one minds me jumping on this thread to mention the latest twaddle reference to breastfeeding i.e. chestfeeding!
I don't know whether I'm coming or going with all this nonsense. If it is all the same to you, I will tune out from this subject from now on.
I won't though, because I need somewhere to rant about it!
 
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I
Men have a small amount of breast tissue but they do not have breasts.

Is this the new excuse to get us all to call breastfeeding “chestfeeding”.
😂 That’s what I meant, breast tissue, not breasts.

I was multi tasking at that point, watching Jeremy Vine, working & helping my daughter with her spellings.

I guess this underlines that language is everything right?

I 100% do not support ‘chest feeding’ as the preferred term for breast feeding. Having fed my 2 babies until they were both 18 months old, the potential erasing of ‘breastfeeding’ as standard terminology makes me feel like my body parts, which have kept my children alive and helped them to grow are not important and my role as a woman and mother is being critically undermined, almost erased.

However, from what the TRA on the show said was that it’s not about them trying to change the whole language around breastfeeding, more about how to use more appropriate language with non binary and trans people (if they so wish).

I just wish that the media wouldn’t jump on a moral panic bandwagon about it, when it will only affect a tiny proportion of people.
 
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If the language is only intended to be used for people who identify as a trans man/non binary then that’s ok I guess. I’ll never ever accept the word ‘chestfeeding’ myself. All it would require was an extra question for midwives to ask at your first appointment really and it goes down in your notes. It doesn’t have to be made into this huge thing.

I fear that like many things to do with this movement that it won’t stop there though.

Also I thought body parts weren’t ‘gendered’ these days (female penis etc). But for some reason the term breastfeeding makes these people feel uncomfortable, guess biology matters more than they care to admit. But they seem to want to have it both ways all the time🤷🏻‍♀️
 
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If the language is only intended to be used for people who identify as a trans man/non binary then that’s ok I guess. I’ll never ever accept the word ‘chestfeeding’ myself. All it would require was an extra question for midwives to ask at your first appointment really and it goes down in your notes. It doesn’t have to be made into this huge thing.

I fear that like many things to do with this movement that it won’t stop there though.

Also I thought body parts weren’t ‘gendered’ these days (female penis etc). But for some reason the term breastfeeding makes these people feel uncomfortable, guess biology matters more than they care to admit. But they seem to want to have it both ways all the time🤷🏻‍♀️
the problem I have with this is that "chest" generally refers to men (not only of course) but it is getting rid of a female term (IMO) - a lot of this change seems to just be moving away from women and to male terms
 
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the problem I have with this is that "chest" generally refers to men (not only of course) but it is getting rid of a female term (IMO) - a lot of this change seems to just be moving away from women and to male terms
Yes 100% agree. It’s like men are the ‘default gender’🙄
 
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Yes 100% agree. It’s like men are the ‘default gender’🙄
exactly, it seems this whole debate to be going backwards tbh... language has always tended to go to the male (i..e guys) why not use breast feeding for everyone of that is what you want?
 
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Are we allowed to say woman now? Genuinely not goading here I’m just confused as to what’s right and wrong these days
That’s a big problem we have - it seems that everyone should know the absolute exact right thing to say all the time and they get bollocked and cancelled if they get it wrong. Not everyone has the same experiences as you so you can’t expect people to all be coming from the same place. For instance I have access to the internet, I use social media, etc so can easily access these debates and questions and learn more. But my grandmother hardly uses the internet and doesn’t have a clue what Twitter is. So if she uses the wrong terminology it’s not because she’s being purposefully bigoted, it’s because she genuinely doesn’t know. It’s ok not to know and I think we all need to remember this.

Yes 100% agree. It’s like men are the ‘default gender’🙄
Slightly related but I’ve noticed that ‘gender neutral’ uniform is always trousers. I know that women have broken through and are able to wear trousers without causing a ruckus in public but I always find that it’s seen as the default setting. Probably have answered my own question here so this is more of a passing observation!

If the language is only intended to be used for people who identify as a trans man/non binary then that’s ok I guess.
I think the article which sparked this (which frustratingly is behind a paywall) did say that ‘chest feeding’ is to be used for people who identify as trans/ non binary. I haven’t read it myself but that’s what other people who have paid subscription have said. In this case I don’t have a problem, it’s if it’s a blanket term being used for everyone then it starts to cause problems. Does anyone have the full article?
 
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That’s a big problem we have - it seems that everyone should know the absolute exact right thing to say all the time and they get bollocked and cancelled if they get it wrong. Not everyone has the same experiences as you so you can’t expect people to all be coming from the same place. For instance I have access to the internet, I use social media, etc so can easily access these debates and questions and learn more. But my grandmother hardly uses the internet and doesn’t have a clue what Twitter is. So if she uses the wrong terminology it’s not because she’s being purposefully bigoted, it’s because she genuinely doesn’t know. It’s ok not to know and I think we all need to remember this.

It’s a bleeping minefield,
and it feels like a new rule, word that’s now an insult or faux pas is being introduced weekly, that will come with manufactured (and in most cases) faux outrage and social media performance from people who really don’t care less either way but,
it’s social media so... FIGHT. 😬

my rule to live by right now is
**I’m not sure what I’ve done or who I’ve offended but you can bet your ass (male/femal/other) I’ve offended someone come nightfall**
 
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It’s a bleeping minefield,
and it feels like a new rule, word that’s now an insult or faux pas is being introduced weekly, that will come with manufactured (and in most cases) faux outrage and social media performance from people who really don’t care less either way but,
it’s social media so... FIGHT. 😬

my rule to live by right now is
**I’m not sure what I’ve done or who I’ve offended but you can bet your ass (male/femal/other) I’ve offended someone come nightfall**
It is a minefield! It really is. I think a lot of it [woke cancel culture] is fuelled by social media, brands and businesses and eventually policies do what business people would call “smell what sells”; they do these pretty info-graphics, clap-back insta post put downs, boycotts and cancellations because that’s what the “cool kids” are saying must happen in order to be “right”. It gets the clicks and shares.

P.s. I like your rule.
 
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Here you go, I’ve copied it as screen grabs weren’t working.


Midwives told to stop using terms such as 'breastfeeding' and 'breastmilk'
Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals (BSUH) NHS Trust is the first to implement a gender inclusive language for its maternity services

ByHayley Dixon, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT ; Rosie Taylorand Max Stephens9 February 2021 • 8:00pm

Midwives have been told to stop using terms including "breastfeeding" and “breastmilk” as part of a new trans-friendly policy at an NHS trust.
Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals (BSUH) NHS Trust is the first in the country to formally implement a gender inclusive language policy for its maternity services department — which will now be known as "perinatal services".
Staff have been told to avoid using the word “mothers” on its own and have been given a list of alternative terms to use when addressing patients including "mothers or birthing parents", "breast/chestfeeding" and "maternal and parental".
Instead of saying "breastmilk", they can choose from "human milk" or "breast/chestmilk" or "milk from the feeding mother or parent".
The language changes will be implemented in the trust's webpages, leaflets and communications such as letters and emails. Staff will be asked to use language which reflects people's "own identities and preferences" when talking to patients.
Other changes include replacing the use of the word "woman" with the phrase "woman or person", and the term "father" with "parent", "co-parent" or "second biological parent", depending on the circumstances.
There has been fierce debate around attempts to reduce the use of the word woman in discussion around subjects including pregnancy and childbirth, and any move to do so has provoked ire from some feminists.
Author JK Rowling was vilified last year after she questioned a decision to use the term “people who menstruate” in a headline.
In a policy document, released this week, the BSUH said staff should not stop using the word "woman" or other terms describing motherhood but they should consciously start adding in the word "people'' and other more inclusive language.
It said: "Gender identity can be a source of oppression and health inequality. We are consciously using the words 'women' and 'people' together to make it clear that we are committed to working on addressing health inequalities for all those who use our services.
"As midwives and birth workers, we focus on improving access and health outcomes for marginalised and disadvantaged groups. Women are frequently disadvantaged in healthcare, as are trans and non-binary people... By continuing to use the term 'woman' we commit to working on addressing health inequalities for all who use our services."
The policy was written by Helen Green and Ash Riddington, described as “Gender Inclusion Midwives” at the unit.
Ms Green, who uses the pronouns she/they and describes herself as non-binary, wrote on social media: “The work is for us and by us, developed from grassroots research and lived experiences in the trans and non-binary community.”
Freddy McConnell, the transgender man who in 2019 lost his High Court battle to register himself as the “father” on his child’s birth certificate, is listed as an external advisor of the document.
Brighton and Hove NHS Trust has long championed itself as a “leader for LGBT inclusion” after receiving a number of accolades from the controversial charity Stonewall.

It is listed on Stonewall’s website as a member of their Diversity Champions Programme. It has been questioned in court whether membership of the scheme, which is paid for, is compatible with public bodies maintaining impartiality.

Stonewall is currently lobbying for self-identification of legal gender, which is a disputed concept, and it has come under fire for its stance on transgender issues with one of its founders Simon Fanshawe claiming it had “undermined women’s sex-based rights and protections”.

The guidance from BHSU follows a 2017 dictate from the British Medical Association which said pregnant women should not be called "expectant mothers" but "pregnant people" as it could offend intersex and transgender men.

Telegraph columnist Suzanne Moore - who resigned from The Guardian last year after colleagues criticised the newspaper for publishing "transphobic content" following an article she wrote about sex being a biological classification "not a feeling" - said: "I'm worried that women will lose the capacity or ability to even name our own body parts or our own biology.

"Why must this language be applied to all women who clearly do have breasts and are mothers? Why must the average woman suddenly not be able to call herself a woman or call her breasts breasts? These are biological facts.

"I just don't see there is this massive demand to call breasts 'chests'. I think it's an insanity."

An estimated one per cent of the adult population in Britain identifies as transgender or non-binary but the trans population in Brighton and Hove is thought to be larger.

Although no official figures exist on the trans community, research has shown nearly 10 per cent of the population of Brighton and Hove identify as LGBTQ+.
 
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I just wish that the media wouldn’t jump on a moral panic bandwagon about it, when it will only affect a tiny proportion of people.
This is such an interesting point and one that has never occurred to me before...there have been so many people either come on this board and say what we're talking about re toilets, prisons etc is a 'moral panic' or I see this phrase bandied around a lot online and stuff, and I have always thought it's not a moral panic to be concerned, but I actually think you're right that it's the other side causing a moral panic. If, as the article says, only 1% of the population are trans people, then the real moral panic here is coming up with this daft terminology and policy for such a small number of people - and as some people keep pointing out, it's not even like all trans people want this crap. I do see plenty of trans people on Twitter saying this is all a load of nonsense and that they believe in sex based rights. How many people are actually asking for 'chestfeeding' and the rest of it? I wonder if anyone has even asked for 'chestfeeding' in Brighton or if it's something barmy the Trust have come up with of their own accord to avoid criticism in the future, if so that is surely the definition of a moral panic. Thank you very much for putting it like this, it's really made me think.

ETA I don't know if what I've said is clear because I'm very tired but essentially, I didn't think the GC side was 'a moral panic' but it didn't ever occur to me that there might be another, different moral panic which is on the TRA side. I just thought there wasn't a moral panic at all.
 
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So transwomen can have "ladydicks" but transmen can't have "manbreasts" or "manboobs?" lol

Also I'm probably thinking about this way too much but are these transmen pre-op or post-op? Can they still "chestfeed" if they're post-op?
And if they're pre-op, the things on their chest are still called breasts ffs
 
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I genuinely held off pressing “post reply” thinking I’d get reported for hate speech or being and “angry non inclusive cis”..... and I don’t even know what I’m doing anymore 😅😂

we’re back to women staying in the kitchen staying quite, unless you weren’t a woman from birth, then you can speak because you’re allowed to be outraged, I don’t want to offend anyone but if you say one thing “wrong” your cancelled 😥

chest feeding is just a level of WTF nobody can defend.
ah great. Welcome aboard. None of us are transphobic, we are just fighting for women and girls and sick of the bull tit

I feel really deflated with it all today. I watched gogglebox on catch up, and they showed First Dates and there was transman on it! feel like trans issues are everywhere!

The chest feeders stuff can kiss my arse!! Do you think its transwomen pushing this and using transmen as an excuse? Just to get rid of womens words from pregnacy ect... Seems that its allll about trans women to me
 
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ah great. Welcome aboard. None of us are transphobic, we are just fighting for women and girls and sick of the bull tit

I feel really deflated with it all today. I watched gogglebox on catch up, and they showed First Dates and there was transman on it! feel like trans issues are everywhere!

The chest feeders stuff can kiss my arse!! Do you think its transwomen pushing this and using transmen as an excuse? Just to get rid of womens words from pregnacy ect... Seems that its allll about trans women to me
I’ve always been scared to come anywhere near this thread incase I called myself a female (have been all my life 😬) and offended someone 😐
 
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I wonder if anyone has even asked for 'chestfeeding' in Brighton or if it's something barmy the Trust have come up with of their own accord to avoid criticism in the future, if so that is surely the definition of a moral panic.
Sometimes I think the leadership in Brighton just comes up with this stuff because it's been a few months since they last stirred it up and got a few inflammatory headlines 🥴
 
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I cannot articulate my thoughts well, and I dont have real understanding of the issues the trans community face.. but chestfeeding can get t'duck. You feed from the breast. It is a breast whether you are male or female. It is called a breast!

It is frustrating to constantly see women and their bodies defined differently nowadays. Vagina owners, vulva owners, those with a cervix, chestfeeders.. why is it never, penis owners, those with testicles?

Wanting to be inclusive, sure but the language is always geared toward removing the woman/female defining element. Ive genuinely never seen it the other way round.
 
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