Gender Discussions #4

[thegirlscout]

‘Staff will be asked to use language which reflects people's "own identities and preferences" when talking to patients.’ - that seems fair enough. If s trans person comes in they change their language, if a non trans person comes in, they revert back to what they used before. Seems it’s not a sweeping change for everyone.
‘dictate from the British Medical Association which said pregnant women should not be called "expectant mothers" but "pregnant people" as it could offend intersex and transgender men.’ - that’s a load of bollocks and is the opposite of inclusive. Why can’t it be ‘pregnant women and people’? Why remove women completely!
Thank your for sharing the article!!!

 

[Badabing101]

Like you @Oohthedrama I’ve been wary of this discussion for fear of offence on any angle. I’m 100% pro inclusion and everyone being who they want to be and being accepted for who they are without prejudice or being fearful - I feel very strongly about this and speak up and take action IRL to make changes happen. However, I am concerned about some of rhetoric and anger that women can be subjected to, if they put their head above the parapet and say ‘what about us?’ I am not comfortable with the terms chestfeeding, I am not comfortable with mixed bathrooms (we have them at work) and I am not comfortable with the changes to language to the detriment of women’s rights. That’s not to say I don’t believe trans and non binary people shouldn’t have inclusive language etc, but it should not be at the expense of excluding others.

I’m also trying to educate myself further on these discussions around gender and sex because it’s so nuanced and can often be conflated with Sexuality (which is a different thing completely I think). I guess it’s because many of the spaces that have historically been safe spaces for LGB people have also been safe spaces for trans people (sorry if I’m using the wrong language here). I listened to a podcast the other day about the original Stonewall ‘riot’ which was really interesting because there was a significant community of trans people and women present as part of that uprising and seemingly they have been erased by history for the part they played in the gay rights movement.

I’m sorry if this all sounds clunky, I’m glad to have found somewhere to be able to talk about this as I have this dilemma about ensuring everyone is included - especially marginalised groups, but how that can be at the expense of other groups. I guess we’re all just complicated humans when it comes down to it.

 

[Vee6]

I think it’s interesting that we always have to caveat everything we say with a long spiel about how we support everyone ect. We all feel the same, I don’t believe anyone doesn’t feel that way here.

I think there is the assumption something that “I’m pro trans, therefore your not”.
its all getting me down at the moment. There is such division that I can’t see how this could end. There is never any attempt at compromise, because every discussion is silenced and considered transphobic. I think this is creeping more into the mainstream now and hopefully will wake up a lot of people who haven’t seen what’s going on. No debate needs to stop, we have to discuss this to get anyway.

 

[Badabing101]

That’s very true @Vee6

 

[Falkor]

Letter in the Times today - given the state of wokeness in academia, these six are being extremely brave in speaking up, but thank goodness they are.

 

[rosemarina]

I listened to a podcast the other day about the original Stonewall ‘riot’ which was really interesting because there was a significant community of trans people and women present as part of that uprising and seemingly they have been erased by history for the part they played in the gay rights movement.

I don't have all the information, but I believe this isn't actually true. There was quite a lot of discussion about it on Twitter by women who had actually been at the Stonewall uprising, and they were saying that these claims were an attempt to rewrite history by TRAs.

 

[Badabing101]

Oh FFS I give up with this then @rosemarina . Who knows what to believe and and which sources to trust ! Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[emmer_moans]

I think it’s interesting that we always have to caveat everything we say with a long spiel about how we support everyone ect. We all feel the same, I don’t believe anyone doesn’t feel that way here.

I think there is the assumption something that “I’m pro trans, therefore your not”.
its all getting me down at the moment. There is such division that I can’t see how this could end. There is never any attempt at compromise, because every discussion is silenced and considered transphobic. I think this is creeping more into the mainstream now and hopefully will wake up a lot of people who haven’t seen what’s going on. No debate needs to stop, we have to discuss this to get anyway.

It is going more mainstream with more businesses buying into social media, as social media decides trends and virtues so much. It's definitely tiring seeing new 'virtues' forced upon us and resistance = cancellation.

Letter in the Times today - given the state of wokeness in academia, these six are being extremely brave in speaking up, but thank goodness they are.
View attachment 430254

I knew the upcoming census might try to give in to the woke. We need academics to speak up for data integrity. It's good heo see some are willing to stand up for it.

 

[Vee6]

I don't have all the information, but I believe this isn't actually true. There was quite a lot of discussion about it on Twitter by women who had actually been at the Stonewall uprising, and they were saying that these claims were an attempt to rewrite history by TRAs.

Yes, Fred Sargent has talked about this many times. He was there at the stone wall riots so knows exactly what happened. There has been a lot of attempts at re writing history by TRAs

Letter in the Times today - given the state of wokeness in academia, these six are being extremely brave in speaking up, but thank goodness they are.
View attachment 430254

It’s so import to have accurate data, how is that not obvious to all involved. By all means have a sex and and gender tick box separately. That would help everyone

Glimmer interviewed Fred Sargent about the stone wall riots - the interview is on YouTube

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@Badabing101 there were claims that a trans women started the Stonewall riots but this was debunked by someone who was there. It was alleged to be a trans woman called Marsha P Johnson but it turns out he was a gay man and a draw queen and didn't identify as trans. And he wasn't even there at the time of the riots

 

[Vee6]

I think it was started by a lesbian called Storme

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Like you @Oohthedrama I’ve been wary of this discussion for fear of offence on any angle. I’m 100% pro inclusion and everyone being who they want to be and being accepted for who they are without prejudice or being fearful - I feel very strongly about this and speak up and take action IRL to make changes happen. However, I am concerned about some of rhetoric and anger that women can be subjected to, if they put their head above the parapet and say ‘what about us?’ I am not comfortable with the terms chestfeeding, I am not comfortable with mixed bathrooms (we have them at work) and I am not comfortable with the changes to language to the detriment of women’s rights. That’s not to say I don’t believe trans and non binary people shouldn’t have inclusive language etc, but it should not be at the expense of excluding others.

I’m also trying to educate myself further on these discussions around gender and sex because it’s so nuanced and can often be conflated with Sexuality (which is a different thing completely I think). I guess it’s because many of the spaces that have historically been safe spaces for LGB people have also been safe spaces for trans people (sorry if I’m using the wrong language here). I listened to a podcast the other day about the original Stonewall ‘riot’ which was really interesting because there was a significant community of trans people and women present as part of that uprising and seemingly they have been erased by history for the part they played in the gay rights movement.

I’m sorry if this all sounds clunky, I’m glad to have found somewhere to be able to talk about this as I have this dilemma about ensuring everyone is included - especially marginalised groups, but how that can be at the expense of other groups. I guess we’re all just complicated humans when it comes down to it.

My impression of the stonewall riot narrative in regards to trans is different. I'm not an expert, but they don't seem to know definitively who threw the first brick. Some said it was Marsha P Johnston but apparently they arrived on scene several hours after it had started. Marsha apparently saw themself as a gay drag queen and not trans? Similarly apparently stonewall had recently opened up to drag queens so there were a number there.

But a narrative has been built that the stonewall riots were started and fought by trans people and thus gay rights were started by trans people. Jonathan Van Ness even said in one of his podcasts that gay people wouldn't even have rights if it wasn't for trans people. I found this massively problematic because gay and leabian people have obviously fought for their lives and their civil rights.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

That's an insult to the many gays and lesbians who fought hard

 

[maytoseptember]

Letter in the Times today - given the state of wokeness in academia, these six are being extremely brave in speaking up, but thank goodness they are.
View attachment 430254

Let me guess, the female signatories of this letter will receive rape and death threats, and people will campaign for them to lose their jobs. The men will be largely ignored.

 

[rosemarina]

Let me guess, the female signatories of this letter will receive rape and death threats, and people will campaign for them to lose their jobs. The men will be largely ignored.

You know it.

 

[Zenchick101]

Like you @Oohthedrama I’ve been wary of this discussion for fear of offence on any angle. I’m 100% pro inclusion and everyone being who they want to be and being accepted for who they are without prejudice or being fearful - I feel very strongly about this and speak up and take action IRL to make changes happen. However, I am concerned about some of rhetoric and anger that women can be subjected to, if they put their head above the parapet and say ‘what about us?’ I am not comfortable with the terms chestfeeding, I am not comfortable with mixed bathrooms (we have them at work) and I am not comfortable with the changes to language to the detriment of women’s rights. That’s not to say I don’t believe trans and non binary people shouldn’t have inclusive language etc, but it should not be at the expense of excluding others.

I’m also trying to educate myself further on these discussions around gender and sex because it’s so nuanced and can often be conflated with Sexuality (which is a different thing completely I think). I guess it’s because many of the spaces that have historically been safe spaces for LGB people have also been safe spaces for trans people (sorry if I’m using the wrong language here). I listened to a podcast the other day about the original Stonewall ‘riot’ which was really interesting because there was a significant community of trans people and women present as part of that uprising and seemingly they have been erased by history for the part they played in the gay rights movement.

I’m sorry if this all sounds clunky, I’m glad to have found somewhere to be able to talk about this as I have this dilemma about ensuring everyone is included - especially marginalised groups, but how that can be at the expense of other groups. I guess we’re all just complicated humans when it comes down to it.

Welcome! I'm here in part because I've seen the disproportionate vitriol aimed at women and LGB people.

 

[Badabing101]

My impression of the stonewall riot narrative in regards to trans is different. I'm not an expert, but they don't seem to know definitively who threw the first brick. Some said it was Marsha P Johnston but apparently they arrived on scene several hours after it had started. Marsha apparently saw themself as a gay drag queen and not trans? Similarly apparently stonewall had recently opened up to drag queens so there were a number there.

But a narrative has been built that the stonewall riots were started and fought by trans people and thus gay rights were started by trans people. Jonathan Van Ness even said in one of his podcasts that gay people wouldn't even have rights if it wasn't for trans people. I found this massively problematic because gay and leabian people have obviously fought for their lives and their civil rights.

I’m definitely going to do more reading and listening on this. I do not give up as I said above.
I know I am ‘late’ to this thread and it may have been discussed already (I’ll go back and read the previous threads) but have people on here watched Transparent? I’d love to know your thoughts. I found it to be (from the perspective of a white, straight woman) really insightful and gentle - watched it ages ago so can’t remember every detail. Jeffrey Tambor was so good in it as the character Maura, I know he left due to allegations of sexual misconduct, but that aside I thought it was generally a sympathetic telling of a story and the many nuances around gender identity and sexuality.

 

[emm]

That’s a big problem we have - it seems that everyone should know the absolute exact right thing to say all the time and they get bollocked and cancelled if they get it wrong. Not everyone has the same experiences as you so you can’t expect people to all be coming from the same place. For instance I have access to the internet, I use social media, etc so can easily access these debates and questions and learn more. But my grandmother hardly uses the internet and doesn’t have a clue what Twitter is. So if she uses the wrong terminology it’s not because she’s being purposefully bigoted, it’s because she genuinely doesn’t know. It’s ok not to know and I think we all need to remember this.


Slightly related but I’ve noticed that ‘gender neutral’ uniform is always trousers. I know that women have broken through and are able to wear trousers without causing a ruckus in public but I always find that it’s seen as the default setting. Probably have answered my own question here so this is more of a passing observation!


I think the article which sparked this (which frustratingly is behind a paywall) did say that ‘chest feeding’ is to be used for people who identify as trans/ non binary. I haven’t read it myself but that’s what other people who have paid subscription have said. In this case I don’t have a problem, it’s if it’s a blanket term being used for everyone then it starts to cause problems. Does anyone have the full article?

Totally agree about the language thing, I read an interesting article a while ago that basically said this constant new language/cancel culture for not using it correctly is effectivly causing another level of social divide/discrimination for people such as older people, people without access to the internet, maybe from small towns/villages etc and just favours younger people in cosmopolitan areas

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Exactly and for stuff like "people with a cervix"- it could exclude women who aren't native English speakers. And it also excludes women who don't read the Guardian or Twitter

 

[Inforapenny]

I've said it before but I was part of several endometriosis closed groups on Facebook. These are well known very popular groups. And guess what the focus wasn't on resources, education for struggling with the illness, support oh no the main debate was about how we include trans people.
It made me mad. It was decided that we should be referred to as 'people with a cervix' or 'people'.
Now if you want a good example of erasing women here it is. On top of this it's widely known that endometriosis takes years to diagnose because it's a women's only illness and healthcare isn't geared up for women.

I'd like to think that if you are trans and have endometriosis you're not going to be hysterical because it's referred to as a woman's illness.

Anyway I recently got my smear invite through and again it was 'people' and 'people with a cervix' ffs.
Trans women don't have a cervix so what is this all about?!

As for the guardian, green party and Labour party they can all feck right off. Trans women (yep men) have been assigned as the womans representative for their party.

It's men, backing men, 'legitimately' silencing and stopping women by crying transphobia.