Gender Discussions #2

[cedarpeach]

A trans women is a women, thats why they are called women.

However, i would also not say that their rights sre more important than anyone else's, as in i think eveyone should have equal rights. So yes, if someone is going to find their presence uncomfortable at a women's rescue shelter, then another solution should be found. But why should they be turned away for a service they also need? Because I don't believe a trans women is going to turn up at a gynecologist or a domestic shelter unless they actually need that service. Why would they want to make their own lives harder knowing the backlash they'd face for it? (There will of course always be a minority who exploit services, for now, I'm not talking about them).

I agree, trans women having their own services is a good idea if it makes people feel more comfortable. But i disagree with the notion that they should be the ones to fight for it just because we had to fight for women's rights on our own. We should help everyone we can get equal rights and opportunities.

I also definitely do not think giving children blockers is anything to be blaise about. I've already covered my opinion on trans children and their treatment and support so I'll not repeat it.


I would also just like to point out that just because I disagree with J.K.Rowling and the way she has going about things and used her platform, does not mean that I don't think a discussion needs to be had surrounding all of this. Because it most definitely does.

I do understand where you are coming from. When the JK furore first kicked up my instinct was to side with the trans people who felt attacked. But, crucially, I then read JK’s essay and specifically researched organisations like Mermaids and Stonewall along with reading the journalism of Janice Turner in the times.
I find it hard to understand how anyone could disagree with the points in JKs essay.

the lack of nuance, compromise and critical thinking in modern discourse is so worrying. So many people are willing to adopt opinions without first doing proper research or thinking things through. This ABSOLUTELY is not aimed at you by the way. I think our short exchange here has proved that we actually seem to agree, but we could have so easily descended into a slanging match with neither of us willing to concede an inch of ground because we see one another as being “opposites” in our beliefs. That seems the modern way, especially online.

 

[mindlessness]

@Shaza96 How do you define a woman?
What is it that makes women 'women' and not men?

 

[judgejohndeed]

Just came for a read in here after the JK Rowling stuff - and God I’m absolutely sick to the back teeth of being told feminism has to be inclusive. It’s about women, not whoever wants to be included! I don’t want to ~ just be kind ~ and include men in our private spaces. They should get their own third space and advocate for that instead of treading all over what’s rightfully ours for our protection. If trans people campaigned for a third space I’d be all for it but the impetus for that is on them, not women. Why are we always being told to do men’s dirty work for them? Saying men here because funnily enough it's always transwomen demanding access, never ever seem to see transmen wanting the same.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I don't think it is but feel free to explain how/why you feel like that.

Your information is outdated because the modern trans ideology is not gender dysphoria. Transsexual used to denote someone with gender dysphoria but now transsexual is a dirty word in the modern trans ideology. The bar of "trans" has been set so low that it can and does mean anything. You can literally wake up one morning and decide you are a woman and if you're not referred to as a she, this is "misgendering" and "an act of violence". There are stories upon stories about this online.

What are your thoughts on trans women competing in female sports? Do you think the competitive advantage a biological male has over a female is fair?

 

[Moley1]

@Shaza96 How do you define a woman?
What is it that makes women 'women' and not men?

The number of shoes in the closet?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

The number of shoes in the closet?

The word woman is now being erased so much that it's no longer about chromosomes, it's about "feelings", long hair, dresses, high heels

 

[judgejohndeed]

The word woman is now being erased so much that it's no longer about chromosomes, it's about "feelings", long hair, dresses, high heels

If only we could opt out of being raped, catcalled, paid less, passed over for promotions, forced into FGM, murdered for rejecting men, the victims of domestic abuse, by saying we no longer feel like women!

 

[SqualorVictoria]

The sad thing is that some of those things excite certain trans women- the cat calling and so on.

 

[svdwoodsen]

Why is it that these biological men have to trample on our rights to campaign for more rights for themselves? Why is it that they can be born male (and hence with all the physical features and advantages of that gender) and somehow when they decide they want to be a woman, we have to include them in our safe spaces, communities, and campaign for them as well? Women's rights are for women because we face unique challenges that result from our physiology and experience in the world. A biological man does not understand why we feel threatened when we get cat called by large, hulking figures on the streets or when a particularly aggressive man corners us in a bar. We are not comparable and our experiences in the world are different, and therefore, need different communities that address the difficulties of each group separately.

 

[CheshireLove]

Why is it that these biological men have to trample on our rights to campaign for more rights for themselves? Why is it that they can be born male (and hence with all the physical features and advantages of that gender) and somehow when they decide they want to be a woman, we have to include them in our safe spaces, communities, and campaign for them as well? Women's rights are for women because we face unique challenges that result from our physiology and experience in the world. A biological man does not understand why we feel threatened when we get cat called by large, hulking figures on the streets or when a particularly aggressive man corners us in a bar. We are not comparable and our experiences in the world are different, and therefore, need different communities that address the difficulties of each group separately.

100% agree.

As women, from cradle to grave we are conditioned and expected by society to make way for men in all circumstances, more often than not to our own detriment and disadvantage. This is how it’s always been and has not changed. We have not achieved equality, no matter what so many men like to profess. The aggressive push for women’s spaces and services (and feminism) to be “inclusive” is just another aspect of this.

How dare women not make space!! How abhorrent that any woman not be “inclusive”. If you don’t, you’re the worst kind of woman to exist! What a witch! /s

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I'm still reeling by the idea that feminism to include men is more inclusive. duck that.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I'm still reeling by the idea that feminism to include men is more inclusive. duck that.

Nobody asks this of people with other protected characteristics, either. We never see disabled people saying 'let's let everyone identify as being disabled if they want to!' and when some very strange people have claimed to identify as a different race, it's shut down immediately. What is different about being female? I see no qualitative difference whatsoever. But for some reason, all bets are off when it comes to women. Where's our protection?

I feel very strongly about all of this and I fear this is going to result in the biggest fight of our generation. For that reason, I was looking into studying an MSt in Women's Studies at Oxford. I went onto the webpage today and see the name of the course is now 'Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies.' We're not even allowed this course anymore. It's absolutely dire.

 

[rosemarina]

I renewed my driving licence online the other day, and was asked for my gender, not my sex. By the UK government!

 

[svdwoodsen]

I renewed my driving licence online the other day, and was asked for my gender, not my sex. By the UK government!

Gender = Sex. Fullstop.

 

[skvallertant]

I'm really behind on this.. I've been catching up on the thread and watching videos from the thread all day (the joys of annual leave!).

I'm an academic and throughout my university studies and teaching we've been taught to use gender neutral language. One of the first things we were taught in sociolinguistics was that gender and sex are completely separate. So, honest question from an educated person.. Why is the term "transgender"? Is it because "transexual" has negative connotations from previous "incarnations" (for lack of a better word)?

Also, I am a bisexual (cis)woman and I can completely see how kids these days can be confused by all of this. I actually had to double check if I actually AM a cis woman because I'm bi.

I have also had some bad news recently in that I shortly have to have some pretty major gynae surgery at what is medically considered as a very, very young age. If these activist trans women were really our allies, as we are to them, then they would concede that certain issues only affect bio women instead of trying to affect periods (I mean wtf?!) and intrude on women's only spaces.

 

[cedarpeach]

I'm really behind on this.. I've been catching up on the thread and watching videos from the thread all day (the joys of annual leave!).

I'm an academic and throughout my university studies and teaching we've been taught to use gender neutral language. One of the first things we were taught in sociolinguistics was that gender and sex are completely separate. So, honest question from an educated person.. Why is the term "transgender"? Is it because "transexual" has negative connotations from previous "incarnations" (for lack of a better word)?

Also, I am a bisexual (cis)woman and I can completely see how kids these days can be confused by all of this. I actually had to double check if I actually AM a cis woman because I'm bi.

I have also had some bad news recently in that I shortly have to have some pretty major gynae surgery at what is medically considered as a very, very young age. If these activist trans women were really our allies, as we are to them, then they would concede that certain issues only affect bio women instead of trying to affect periods (I mean wtf?!) and intrude on women's only spaces.

the change in language is interesting. I only very recently learned that transgender is different to transsexual and that’s when my concerns about the whole ideology started to grow.

Many of us accept that gender is a social construct which makes much of the transgender ideology reductive and sexist, imo.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I'm an academic and throughout my university studies and teaching we've been taught to use gender neutral language. One of the first things we were taught in sociolinguistics was that gender and sex are completely separate. So, honest question from an educated person.. Why is the term "transgender"? Is it because "transexual" has negative connotations from previous "incarnations" (for lack of a better word)?

Also, I am a bisexual (cis)woman and I can completely see how kids these days can be confused by all of this. I actually had to double check if I actually AM a cis woman because I'm bi.

I believe that transgender is used for people who identify as being a different gender but don’t take steps to transition, whereas transsexuals usually want to medically transition (please do correct me if I’m wrong anyone!) and this makes sense with the rise of gender theory because many trans people these days don’t want to transition. A lot of the confusion and arguments, I feel, are because people who don’t know much about this debate and the modern day terminology around it still think ‘trans’ means ‘people who medically transitioned’ (as it pretty much used to) and therefore don’t see the cause for concern e.g. risk of sexual violence.
Also hi from a previous (legal) academic, although I got out

 

[skvallertant]

I believe that transgender is used for people who identify as being a different gender but don’t take steps to transition, whereas transsexuals usually want to medically transition (please do correct me if I’m wrong anyone!) and this makes sense with the rise of gender theory because many trans people these days don’t want to transition. A lot of the confusion and arguments, I feel, are because people who don’t know much about this debate and the modern day terminology around it still think ‘trans’ means ‘people who medically transitioned’ (as it pretty much used to) and therefore don’t see the cause for concern e.g. risk of sexual violence.
Also hi from a previous (legal) academic, although I got out

Thanks to you and @cedarpeach for your insights!!

I'm still under the impression that transsexual is an offensive term, though? Maybe I've misunderstood it.

I'm also hoping to get out of academia...help! Th.D (but don't come for me, I'm an atheist studying the syntax of Ancient/Classical Hebrew )

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I think transsexual in general is a dirty word nowadays (within the modern trans ideology)

 

[judgejohndeed]

Thanks to you and @cedarpeach for your insights!!

I'm still under the impression that transsexual is an offensive term, though? Maybe I've misunderstood it.

I'm also hoping to get out of academia...help! Th.D (but don't come for me, I'm an atheist studying the syntax of Ancient Hebrew )

Yeah it’s not commonly used at all these days. From what I have seen, the gender ideologists don’t seem that keen on people who want to actually transition - they’re forcing this whole idea that you can just identify out of your sex and ignore your body, so the people who want to medically transition don’t fit their agenda.
Good luck! Now seems like a great time to get out from what I’ve heard from previous colleagues...sounds like COVID chaos, I do empathise!