Gender Discussions #2

[judgejohndeed]

@judgejohndeed I was just quoting your post when it vanished, but bloody hell, I’m sorry.

Sorry I tried to edit it as I’d basically repeated myself in the next post but wasn’t looking properly and managed to delete it
Fortunately I haven’t yet actually turned up to a smear appointment with a transwoman but I know there is a trans nurse at my GP practice so I end up worrying for weeks about it. Might just pay to go private this time but don’t know if I would have the same issue

 

[rosemarina]

I bet you won’t have the same issue if you go private, but why should you have to? As you said, surely any of us can deny anybody we like the right to see any part of us we choose.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

The phrase "trans women are women" just goes through me. I hate it so much

It reminds me of all the government slogans over the years: “strong and stable” “get brexit done” and my favourite recent one “stay alert”

They have no meaning and no substance behind them. It’s why most people falter when you ask what is a woman. They know full well what a woman is, everyone does. But the phrase “trans women are women“ doesn’t make sense when you acknowledge reality.

 

[jewelkitty]

I need to catch up on this thread but here's a great article I just read, it's not too long!

How the Trans lobby wants to capture your mind | TheArticle

We can probably all agree shouting

www.thearticle.com

 

[emmer_moans]

Sorry I tried to edit it as I’d basically repeated myself in the next post but wasn’t looking properly and managed to delete it
Fortunately I haven’t yet actually turned up to a smear appointment with a transwoman but I know there is a trans nurse at my GP practice so I end up worrying for weeks about it. Might just pay to go private this time but don’t know if I would have the same issue

I don't blame you. Took me too many years to pluck up courage to go for a smear with female GP. If I turned up and there was transwoman there I really think I would have walked out. If it was for a flu jab then it would have been fine, or to review asthma etc. I just don't go to male GP to talk about female matters so why the heck would I want to be seen by a transwoman. For many of us it is an innate preference to seek help for womens matters from women. Same as I am sure most men would not want their prostate checked by a female GP. Perhaps that makes me a "TERF" but again i think of younger women going for theirs for the first time and not really being given a preference.

I would probably consider private if I was you too.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I don't blame you. Took me too many years to pluck up courage to go for a smear with female GP. If I turned up and there was transwoman there I really think I would have walked out. If it was for a flu jab then it would have been fine, or to review asthma etc. I just don't go to male GP to talk about female matters so why the heck would I want to be seen by a transwoman. For many of us it is an innate preference to seek help for womens matters from women. Same as I am sure most men would not want their prostate checked by a female GP. Perhaps that makes me a "TERF" but again i think of younger women going for theirs for the first time and not really being given a preference.

I would probably consider private if I was you too.

That’s exactly my issue too, it took me a really long time to even go for a smear at all because of things that happened when I was younger. I dread the whole thing regardless but having to worry about this as well makes it worse, and I can’t bear the thought that I may psych myself up for ages for it and then have to rebook when I get there. All because they won’t just guarantee a booking with a bio female. It just doesn’t seem fair. I too wouldn’t accept a man doing this test so I don’t even see how this could be perceived as transphobia at all. And sod it - even if it was transphobic, isn’t it more important that we retain the decision over who sees our bodies? I really despair that this ideology is getting so embedded in medicine, I am really glad I don’t have children right now tbh.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

France talking sense, of course men can’t be mothers.

I wonder how all this stuff works in a country like France where their language is incredibly ‘gendered’.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Did that person stop to think what impact it would have on their child? Instead of focusing on being an actual parent he is more concerned with fighting ridiculous legal battles. This is the other problem with the ideology- it doesn't give one thought to others who may be impacted.

For instance, a man who is married and then decides he is a woman and legally changes over- essentially his marriage is annulled, meaning his previous wife has no legal rights.

 

[rosemarina]

I renewed my driving licence online the other day, and was asked for my gender, not my sex. By the UK government!

Well, it arrived today, and they’ve put Miss instead of Ms as well, the trolling little ducks.

 

[Pundertaker]

Nobody asks this of people with other protected characteristics, either. We never see disabled people saying 'let's let everyone identify as being disabled if they want to!' and when some very strange people have claimed to identify as a different race, it's shut down immediately. What is different about being female? I see no qualitative difference whatsoever. But for some reason, all bets are off when it comes to women. Where's our protection?

I feel very strongly about all of this and I fear this is going to result in the biggest fight of our generation. For that reason, I was looking into studying an MSt in Women's Studies at Oxford. I went onto the webpage today and see the name of the course is now 'Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies.' We're not even allowed this course anymore. It's absolutely dire.

Women's studies has always included gender studies whether it is specified or not; it's part of gender theory (I studied it). Women's Studies has also evolved as feminism has progressed. Degree titles in sociological areas change all the time because the field is so dynamic; it's not about an agenda.

If you're looking for 1970s Germaine Greer feminism in one of these degrees, you'll be sorely disappointed. But a degree in this field will absolutely answer the questions you're posing here (with all due respect, it will show you how much you're barking up the wrong tree).

 

[mindlessness]

Without Greer, Dvorkin, Butler and the many women who came before now in Feminist academia there wouldn’t be a discipline. It’s pretty sad if departments don’t teach anything at all about feminist theory as it evolved over time. Do I agree with everything Greer says? No. But a degree in women’s studies/gender studies that didn’t teach her work wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on.

 

[thegirlscout]

Without Greer, Dvorkin, Butler and the many women who came before now in Feminist academia there wouldn’t be a discipline. It’s pretty sad if departments don’t teach anything at all about feminist theory as it evolved over time. Do I agree with everything Greer says? No. But a degree in women’s studies/gender studies that didn’t teach her work wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on.

They would more than likely talk about the history of feminism but like @Pundertaker says due to the very nature of the course it is always evolving so what you would be learning about is women’s studies from a 2020 viewpoint. There may be courses about the history of feminism that may be more your thing? If you’re looking at doing a MA and not a MSt, the university of York does a degree called ‘women’s studies’, I’m sure other places have degrees with similar names.

 

[mindlessness]

They would more than likely talk about the history of feminism but like @Pundertaker says due to the very nature of the course it is always evolving so what you would be learning about is women’s studies from a 2020 viewpoint. There may be courses about the history of feminism that may be more your thing? If you’re looking at doing a MA and not a MSt, the university of York does a degree called ‘women’s studies’, I’m sure other places have degrees with similar names.

I don't need a history of feminism course. Why did you think I was looking for degree suggestions?
I was stating my position that I don't think you can study feminist theory unless you read all that has come before (even if you disagree with some of it). Feminism is not only about the present and we would not be where we are without the women who came before us. These courses, whether named womens studies or gender studies, are not worthwhile if they don't cover stuff that makes people uncomfortable. It's important to not learn or exist in an echo chamber.

 

[Pundertaker]

Without Greer, Dvorkin, Butler and the many women who came before now in Feminist academia there wouldn’t be a discipline. It’s pretty sad if departments don’t teach anything at all about feminist theory as it evolved over time. Do I agree with everything Greer says? No. But a degree in women’s studies/gender studies that didn’t teach her work wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on.

Sorry--what I meant is that a WS degree will not "affirm" older models of feminism. The current gender criticism is very much evolved from Greer-style models, so if someone is expecting a WS degree to be anything like some of the discussions on this thread, they would be disappointed. Butler, obviously, is still very relevant in terms of her gender theory. The whole point of a degree like WS is that it questions what it is to be a woman; current gender criticism views this as an absolute that should not be questioned at a biological level.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Please forgive me if I'm misreading as I haven't yet had any caffeine but are some posters here suggesting that GG et al are now irrelevant and part of history?

That to me seems rather like doing an English lit degree & excluding Shakespeare and only focusing on 2020 literature because of how language & writing styles have evolved

 

[mindlessness]

Sorry--what I meant is that a WS degree will not "affirm" older models of feminism. The current gender criticism is very much evolved from Greer-style models, so if someone is expecting a WS degree to be anything like some of the discussions on this thread, they would be disappointed. Butler, obviously, is still very relevant in terms of her gender theory. The whole point of a degree like WS is that it questions what it is to be a woman; current gender criticism views this as an absolute that should not be questioned at a biological level.

Really? the whole point of a WS course is 'that it questions what it is to be a woman'? I'd argue it's a bit more complex than that. Any good course should teach you to read widely, and engage with ideas even if they're not 'current' or as 'evolved' as your own.

Below, two course descriptions from courses mentioned in this thread:

The course provides a systematic introduction to feminist theory and highlights women's contribution to culture and history alongside critical analysis and theorisation of the meanings assigned to the category 'woman' in philosophical, literary, socio- cultural and historical thought.

Oxford University MSt

This MA offers the opportunity to study the complex issues and debates within women’s studies and gain a critical understanding of the intersections between feminist thought and wider social and cultural debates

York MA

You studied WS? When you graduated, had you figured out 'what it is to be a woman'?

 

[Pundertaker]

Really? the whole point of a WS course is 'that it questions what it is to be a woman'? I'd argue it's a bit more complex than that. Any good course should teach you to read widely, and engage with ideas even if they're not 'current' or as 'evolved' as your own.

Below, two course descriptions from courses mentioned in this thread:

Oxford University MSt

York MA

You studied WS? When you graduated, had you figured out 'what it is to be a woman'?

You're being very reductive and making a lot of assumptions here, so I'm just going to let my other posts stand.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Ugh. Check out this virtue signalling tweet from an Irish journalist. "Look how woke and enlightened I am! And a cutesy comment from my three year old. Now please like and retweet!" Performative nonsense

 

[BostonFernGreen]

You're being very reductive and making a lot of assumptions here, so I'm just going to let my other posts stand.

I may be misreading you here but I think you’re saying the discussion on this thread is less evolved than the discussions you have or have had on a degree course?

Sociology/Gender Studies/Women Studies are all brilliant topics and of course I’m very grateful for those who dig deep and theorise.

I’m not overly convinced it’s done in good faith if when you leave, your main contribution to lay discussion is to tell people they don’t understand and their views aren’t very evolved.

Again, I might have misinterpreted you and if so, I’m really sorry!

Sociology and adjacent disciplines are so good at fostering the attitude I describe above. But what are you offering the world?

If you can’t take part in a conversation about gender and the current events and listen and respond and hear women, what are you contributing?

You know how the really clever people make complex ideas sound simple? And you know how when someone says something you disagree with, the really clever people can understand what they’re saying and find mutual ground? Sociology and related fields really seem to miss this in favour of competitive deconstruction. Deconstructing things is far easier than constructing.

 

[mindlessness]

You're being very reductive and making a lot of assumptions here, so I'm just going to let my other posts stand.

You mentioned you studied WS, and as such I think you have something interesting to contribute to our discussion here. I responded to you because I wanted to engage you in discussion about the content and focus of a women's studies course. Which is, I think, not as simple as you described. Again, these are my viewpoints, and I want to hear yours.