Gender Discussions #2

[SqualorVictoria]

This thread is a lifeline. We're afraid to speak up on this in real life. Someone once said it was a "feminist echo chamber" *eye roll* but they're not in danger of being cancelled for believing men aren't women.

 

[judsmum]

I’m not a ‘cis’ woman. I’m a woman. I’ve never required a pre-fixed label before and I sure as shit don’t require one now. It is reassuring though that this isn’t the opinion of the majority, but the majority needs to speak out continually. It needs to shout louder than the rest.

 

[Doc]

To those whose family members have “drunk the cool aid” I’ve found asking them why they support homophobic gay conversion therapy in a shocked voice seems to work. Which, it is. NOBODY is born in the wrong body. It’s illogical and old-fashioned.

Yes! I’ve never understood the “wrong body” argument. Your sex is determined by biology, not feeling. What do men wanting to transition think being a woman is supposed to feel like? I mean, if that’s how you think you’ll be happiest - living as the opposite sex - then go for it. It’s not my place to judge your life and decisions and, quite honestly, I don’t give a shit what you do. But in the process you’ve got no right to muddy, take away or threaten my identity or safety as a biological woman. If you commit crimes, they should not skew data on exactly who has committed it. And, most of all, you have no right to project or normalise your choices onto children.

I’m also sad for the gay, bi and lesbian community and how it’s all lumped together as “sexuality”. It’s not.

Also have a growing dislike for drag, but that’s another thing entirely.

 

[maytoseptember]

Hadley Freeman retweeted this bollocks from her estwhile employers, The Guardian. She’s one of the only sane voices left.



A useful read for any Tattlers unfamiliar with what it means to be “non-binary”.

It’s all so regressive. They talk about rejecting gender norms but don’t seem to realise that, by saying “I have short hair and I don’t like pink therefore I am not female” it actually reinforces them in the strictest way possible.

 

[CheshireLove]

Why is it that these biological men have to trample on our rights to campaign for more rights for themselves? Why is it that they can be born male (and hence with all the physical features and advantages of that gender) and somehow when they decide they want to be a woman, we have to include them in our safe spaces, communities, and campaign for them as well? Women's rights are for women because we face unique challenges that result from our physiology and experience in the world. A biological man does not understand why we feel threatened when we get cat called by large, hulking figures on the streets or when a particularly aggressive man corners us in a bar. We are not comparable and our experiences in the world are different, and therefore, need different communities that address the difficulties of each group separately.

100% agree.

As women, from cradle to grave we are conditioned and expected by society to make way for men in all circumstances, more often than not to our own detriment and disadvantage. This is how it’s always been and has not changed. We have not achieved equality, no matter what so many men like to profess. The aggressive push for women’s spaces and services (and feminism) to be “inclusive” is just another aspect of this.

How dare women not make space!! How abhorrent that any woman not be “inclusive”. If you don’t, you’re the worst kind of woman to exist! What a bitch! /s

 

[bethannebodyworks]

I'm so glad I found my people. This gender bullshit is insaneeeeeeeeeeeee.

Thank GOD nobody in my family is woke. My (gay as hell) brother and I are constantly making fun of this bullshit. Now I'm going to go back and read this whole thread.

 

[openbook1]

So I was active on "gender critical" reddit and none of it was particularly hateful, many voicing the same opinions that we have here. Anyway, today that reddit page was banned for "promoting hate." We are literally being shut up. There were rumours yesterday it was going to get deleted and people asked if there is an alternative so I pointed towards Tattle.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Well if a man tells me he's a woman I will use whatever the preferred pronouns are as a courtesy but no, he is not a woman. One cannot argue with biology and science. Under self ID, a man can just wake up one day and tell everyone he is a woman because "feelings". Meaning he has access to womens only services, prisons, rape shelters, etc. He can participate in womens sports. Do you honestly think that's fair?

 

[Pixie06]

I've been reading this thread, and I've already been branded transphobic on another thread. My issue being that as a female and rape victim I said that I don't want a transwoman with a penis to be in a changing room with me. I just wanted to ask if anyone knew of any transmen who hadn't had surgery that felt comfortable being in a changing room with males? I got sent a link arc.org which say about 13 transgender women were murdered in 2014. Presumably by men. But am I being transphobic about not being happy changing naked with a transwoman who hasn't had gender reassignment. I really have no problem how people want to identify but feel like I'm going a bit mad trying to put my point across!

Edited to say if you want to dress as a woman if you are a male or vice versa, is that now seen as how you identify?? I'm so confused!

Also I asked my gay male friends what would happen if I turned up at a gay sauna and identified as a man, would they allow me in, their answers we not surprisingly I'd be told to f*** off!

 

[svdwoodsen]

The arguments around this entire subject in the media are simply ridiculous. I would consider myself very socially liberal, anti-racist, and supportive of gay marriage and the trans community, but erasing women's identities is going way too far. And I don't care what the radical left says, but the majority of people have values that are aligned with those on this board.

I've seen lesbian friends get called TERFS for not wanting to date trans women, which is completely insane. I am currently in a relationship but even if I was single, I would not be comfortable dating a trans person, and somehow that makes me transphobic? What's next, calling out people who refuse to date criminals, overweight/ugly people discriminatory? It's like people are not allowed to have any preferences or opinions (which they are not even forcing onto anyone else) these days because it'll offend someone out there. GROW UP.

 

[maytoseptember]

Yeah you don't see "mxn" being used...if you did there would be uproar.

Of course you don’t. Women have to be “womxn” and “birthing people” and “people with a cervix”. But it’ll be a cold day in hell before we see “mxn”, “ejaculating people” and “people with a prostate” becoming common parlance.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Saw an article thats caused quite a stir on mumsnets feminist boards, read it myself and was pretty shocked with what was being said, wondering what your thoughts are? www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2020/07/9919890/transphobia-and-domestic-violence

Made my blood boil reading that I couldn’t finish it. Just the same old shit about how women should make way for transwomen yet again.

Who the fuck do they think was fighting for women back before we had women’s shelters and charities? Back when marital rape was legal? (1991 in the UK if I remember rightly) It certainly wasn’t transwomen but it was definitely women. What exactly have transwomen done for women in history? A big fuck all as far as I can tell and yet they expect us to fight for them. I am SO SICK of trans people expecting women to get involved and fight their battles. NO. We have our own battles thanks.

You cannot be born a man and then ‘transition’ to a woman and expect to be allowed into womens rape refuges. If you want to feel safe from domestic violence then make your own god damn shelters Instead of colonising ours, you entitled fuckwits.

I also don’t buy the stats no way are they that low for women. It was reported a couple of weeks ago on the local radio station that in my area they had been having an average of 6 domestic violence related 999 calls a day since lockdown began. Guarantee most of not all of those involve women being abused by men. Transwomen are constantly trying to piggy back off of the hardships of women and make them their own. FUCK OFF.

 

[2020two]

The PCOS sub on Reddit has been removed and replaced with "pcos folk" after transphobic complaints. Similarly the pregnancy sub has now had to private itself because of all the trans harassment. R/babybumps is still going for "pregnant redditors" (no mention of women)

What world are we living in? A world where women aren't allowed to discuss inherintly female conditions? More than ever being a woman feels like drawing the short straw. My daughter is only 5 months old but wow I hope the world calms the hell down before she's old enough to know about all this.

 

[maytoseptember]

Right?? With children and teenagers, you're often desperate to fit in or at least have some confirmation that you aren't "strange" and this would've been the perfect "excuse" for why I liked catching bugs, playing sports with boys, and preferred shorts to mini skirts. But I've since grew out of a lot of that (still play a lot of sports with men and like wearing shorts) but I also love dressing up in a traditionally feminine way, have a wonderful MALE fiance, and love wearing new makeup. I am clearly not uncomfortable in my body or sexuality but some radical trans activists would've put that idea in my head if they existed when I was a kid. And at that age, I would've been very confused not as a result of anything I felt, but because of what some people and the media have been telling me. Kids and teens are super impressionable.

And in my case, I’m convinced that I’m autistic (just another woman who went undiagnosed all her life... who then gave birth to an autistic child and the penny dropped). It’s no coincidence that there are scores of autistic teen girls attending gender clinics.

 

[cedarpeach]

A trans women is a women, thats why they are called women.

However, i would also not say that their rights sre more important than anyone else's, as in i think eveyone should have equal rights. So yes, if someone is going to find their presence uncomfortable at a women's rescue shelter, then another solution should be found. But why should they be turned away for a service they also need? Because I don't believe a trans women is going to turn up at a gynecologist or a domestic shelter unless they actually need that service. Why would they want to make their own lives harder knowing the backlash they'd face for it? (There will of course always be a minority who exploit services, for now, I'm not talking about them).

I agree, trans women having their own services is a good idea if it makes people feel more comfortable. But i disagree with the notion that they should be the ones to fight for it just because we had to fight for women's rights on our own. We should help everyone we can get equal rights and opportunities.

I also definitely do not think giving children blockers is anything to be blaise about. I've already covered my opinion on trans children and their treatment and support so I'll not repeat it.


I would also just like to point out that just because I disagree with J.K.Rowling and the way she has going about things and used her platform, does not mean that I don't think a discussion needs to be had surrounding all of this. Because it most definitely does.

I do understand where you are coming from. When the JK furore first kicked up my instinct was to side with the trans people who felt attacked. But, crucially, I then read JK’s essay and specifically researched organisations like Mermaids and Stonewall along with reading the journalism of Janice Turner in the times.
I find it hard to understand how anyone could disagree with the points in JKs essay.

the lack of nuance, compromise and critical thinking in modern discourse is so worrying. So many people are willing to adopt opinions without first doing proper research or thinking things through. This ABSOLUTELY is not aimed at you by the way. I think our short exchange here has proved that we actually seem to agree, but we could have so easily descended into a slanging match with neither of us willing to concede an inch of ground because we see one another as being “opposites” in our beliefs. That seems the modern way, especially online.

 

[Zenchick101]

Biologist gets banned from a reddit sub. Interesting explanation on why sex is binary.

To be honest, I don't know if it was that comment in particular the reason for the ban, because I got banned automatically after posting it. I've been expressing anti porn, anti violent kinks and anti sex work views in Reddit before. I've also defended JK Rowling, and commented in GenderDifficult. I don't even agree with Gender Critical in several things, but I guess that anything that goes against the narrative in these topics is "terfy". In Reddit, I've said before that is extremely offensive to say that if we consider black woman women, we have to consider trans women women as well, because both are "types of women". I said that a black woman is genetically closer to a white woman than to a black trans woman, because race, unlike sex, is truly a social construct.

I do agree with many of the things that used to be discused in r/GenderCritical: the criticism of porn, sex work and kink, the idea of gender as an identity, the negation of biological sex, the whole "genital preference" nosense, children transitioning, the origin of women opression as sex based and callling out misogyny in the LGTB community. I don't think that "a woman is anyone who identifies as woman". I think that being a man or a woman is a material reality, not a feeling. There is one important aspect in which I disagree: I do consider trans women as social women and trans men as social men. I do consider that men and women should be biological terms, and not social, but I understand that there are social connotations deeply tied to "being a woman" or "being a man" that can be changed in a generation, and why just being an effeminate man is not enough for a trans woman. We are social animals after all, and identity is very important. What I mean by social woman is that for example someone like NikkieTutorials has never lived as "a man", people didn't know that she was trans until she said it, and in her daily life, she's considered as woman by society, so even is she is male, I do consider her a woman. Anyway, this is not what this post is about.

Like I said, I'm a biologist, and I'm getting pissed as I incresealy see more and more "sex is a spectrum" things, even from scientists who want to be woke. This is what I commented in Reddit and presumably what got me banned. In this post I defend a guy who has maked several YouTube videos explaining why sex is a binary. The title of the post in r/feminism is "intersex women are women". This guy has never claimed otherwise. The post was a screenshot of a Twitter reply were a XY woman with vagina and no uterus (probably Swyer syndrome) was calling him out because he said that there are only two sexes and that secondary sex traits don't define sex, primary ones do (what is absolutely correct).

< This post is misleading. He has talked about this in his videos. He doesn't say that chromosomes alone determine sex, what he says is that intersex people are not a third sex or something between male and female, but variations inside male or female. The woman in the post has probably Swyer syndrome: these women are XY but developed as females due to a mutation in the SRY gene, the gene that leads to the development of male characteristics, located in the Y chromosome. This guy has talked about Swyer syndrome before, he said that despite them being XY, they are female because they develop female primary sex traits. He never said that women with Swyer syndrome aren't women. He is right when he says that secondary sex traits don't determine sex: a vagina, uterus and ovaries aren't secondary sex traits, but primary. Secondary sex traits are breasts, facial hair, hormone levels... A woman with a high testosterone level is still female, a man with gynecomasty is still male.

In humans, sex is a binary. There aren't any human hermaphrodites, a third gamete or a third reproductive system. It's true that is not always as simple as XY and XX, he adresses this in his videos. But the exception doesn't make the rule. Intersex conditions are anomalies in embrionary development. Of course, intersex people deserve the same respect and rights as everyone else. He is not saying otherwise.

Saying that sex is a spectrum because 1% of the population has a variation on sex development also implies that men who are muscular and have a beard are "more male" than skinny men with no facial hair, or that women with higher testosterone levels are "less female". This is obviously not true.

I know that there are scientists who are claiming that sex is not a binary, but everyone has their own biases. They show intersex conditions to prove it, and I understand that they say that sex is not a binary to show that things are more complicated than XX= female, XY=male, but again, the exception doesn't make the rule.

Before anyone sends me to "read a book" or to "study biology" because I clearly don't have idea, I'm a biologist. >

 

[openbook1]

I’m sure he asked pretty much the same thing last month

Piers is answering..

YES PIERS. He is really speaking some sense this year and I never thought I would say that.

 

[Sheeeet]

TxD can get to fxck.

 

[el_coochita]

This was shared on Facebook as a good news story. I mean it's great that this person is happier in themselves now but there's more to being a woman than just wearing earrings and dress, having long hair and going to Debenhams for a makeover

Transgender Cork farmer (65) surprised at positive response to telling her story

Erica Coates said it was like a sentence ‘my body was free but my mind was in solitary confinement’

www.irishtimes.com

Imagine if it were possible to just, you know... be a man and wear earrings/grow your hair long/wear a dress...

I can't believe the idiocy of people falling over themselves to pat these men on the back for insisting that they're actual women, rather than just admitting that 99% of people's personalities don't align perfectly with their prescribed gender roles be they masculine/feminine and thinking maybe we should just make it OK for men to wear sparkly things while still admitting they're male?

 

[openbook1]

Wow. I can't believe we are on thread 2 already. I hope it's ok I kept the thread title simple.

Wonder how many blue ticks are wanting to come out in support of JK but are too scared?