You didn't answer my question. Do you feel that trans people can genuinely exist? If not, then there is no point having this discussion as we are unlikely to find agreement.
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I’m not the poster you’re quoting but I don’t know what you mean by ‘genuinely trans’. Humans can’t change sex. Believing you were meant to be the other sex is no different to believing you were meant to be black if you’re white or a 6ft beautiful model when you’re a 5ft pug faced square woman.
Can you explain to me how these other examples are not genuine and your example is?
I believe there are a minority of people like your friend who genuinely *believe* they are a man in a female body or vice versa. But I don’t believe that means it’s true, and that ‘transitioning’ changes anything. Because what is this *feeling*? Usually it’s associated to gender stereotypes which is just a harmful social construct, especially for women.
To me it’s similar to anorexic people. I can believe they *think* they are large, but that doesn’t make it true.
You are biologically what you are. Even Intersex people are. No exceptions in Human Beings. It's tied in - immutably- with your DNA, Chromosomes, Cellular makeup ; internal body organs etc etc
That is IMMUTABLE.
Gender I.d. , transgender, is in the mind. Its a mindset how that person FEELS in themselves, in their " id"
(I'm talking about genuine cases of peoples mindset/ how they feel/ want to live their life- not the eddie izzards etc- he's simply a cross-dresser. )
That is IMMUTABLE.
Gender I.d. , transgender, is in the mind. Its a mindset how that person FEELS in themselves, in their " id"
(I'm talking about genuine cases of peoples mindset/ how they feel/ want to live their life- not the eddie izzards etc- he's simply a cross-dresser. )
Out of interest, and I’m not trying to be goady, would you support the affirmation of people with Body Integrity Dysphoria. This is also a condition where people believe from a very young age that they have a limb that does not feel like part of their body. They become fixated in getting the offending part amputated. I can’t see how this type of dysphoria differs from gender dysphoria. Both involve believing that the body parts they have are ‘wrong’. If one is a mental illness, then why isn’t the other?
The Girl Who Wants to Get Rid of Her Left Leg—Body Identity Dysphoria - PMC
Introduction: One of the strangest kinds of misperceptions of the body is “Body Integrity Dysphoria” (BID), formerly named as “Body Identity Integrity Disorder” (BIID). The affected people have the feeling that a limb is not part of their body. They ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I didn’t answer your question because you added it after I had clicked reply!
Not sure exactly what you mean by ‘do you feel that trans people can genuinely exist’.
I believe your friend exists. She’s breathing. Just like the other 8 billion people existing on the planet.
Do I believe she *thinks* she’s a man in a woman’s body?
Yes.
Do I believe she *IS* a man in woman’s body?
Nope.
I do not think humans can change sex either, it's scientifically not possible. But I do believe sex and gender are two separate things. Gender is a social construct (as we can see throughout various periods in history and culture) whereas sex is written in your biology. In the same way skin colour and height are written in your biology (and for all intents and purposes can't be changed) but, say, your hair colour can. Granted, it's not as trivial as that.
Do I believe someone who identifies as female but born male can change sex or vice versa? No, that's ridiculous. Do I think they can identify as the opposite gender in terms of the body they feel they should have been born in in? Yes.
The thing for me with this whole ‘genuine trans’ idea is, let’s say we go with that. And someone feels down to their very core that they are/want to be the opposite sex. Ok. I’m sure there are people like that. But in that case, they are still 100% their biological sex. So why should they be granted access to opposite sex facilities based on that? Why should documents and medical records be altered to lie?
I understand that it must be a very difficult thing to live with but that doesn’t justify it.
On a different note, another way of saying ‘gender is a social construct’ is just ‘gender isn’t real’ so why are we acting like a person’s gender even matters?
I understand that it must be a very difficult thing to live with but that doesn’t justify it.
On a different note, another way of saying ‘gender is a social construct’ is just ‘gender isn’t real’ so why are we acting like a person’s gender even matters?
FWIW, I'm not here to be contrary. I just feel that trans people do exist but not in the frequency we are seeing currently and I find the movement problematic whilst at the same time feeling like I support trans people's rights to be who they are if they aren't hurting anyone.Out of interest, and I’m not trying to be goady, would you support the affirmation of people with Body Integrity Dysphoria. This is also a condition where people believe from a very young age that they have a limb that does not feel like part of their body. They become fixated in getting the offending part amputated. I can’t see how this type of dysphoria differs from gender dysphoria. Both involve believing that the body parts they have are ‘wrong’. If one is a mental illness, then why isn’t the other?
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The Girl Who Wants to Get Rid of Her Left Leg—Body Identity Dysphoria - PMC
Introduction: One of the strangest kinds of misperceptions of the body is “Body Integrity Dysphoria” (BID), formerly named as “Body Identity Integrity Disorder” (BIID). The affected people have the feeling that a limb is not part of their body. They ...
Good question. It is a very similar concept. I suppose I couldn't give you a yes or no answer in that. Not because I am being avoidant but because I'd want to understand more about these cases in terms of their background, neurological composition etc. In the same way I'd want to know more about a trans person before I feel like I could make my own judgement on what I think is going on for them. As I said up thread, something is clearly going on with the Autistic community to explain why so many identify as trans or non binary and I don't think we know enough to answer that question yet as to why. This would be similar to me.
But if gender is entirely a social construct as you’ve written above, why do trans people castrate themselves and have surgery?
I don’t disagree that trans people exist. I genuinely do feel there are those out there incredibly ill and I have nothing but sympathy for them and hope they find the peace and treatment they need. But at the same time I can’t indulge in someone else’s delusion and pretend they actually are what they believe.
They don't. They just start bringing up Rose West and Myra Hindley for some reason.
Autistic people are easy targets. Online people get at them & turn their heads / pressure them , for another recuit to the cause- then when it all goes wrong for the individual , its too late as the bleeps initiating it ( who couldnt give a toss anyway) have all have moved on.
I guess you'd need to ask someone who has fully transitioned in that respect. There are several possible reasons I suppose. Maybe to help them feel less torment? Maybe so they can have the parts they feel they should have? Plenty of trans people choose not to go that far and live their lives as the gender they feel they are without surgery.
But this is the thing about the mentally ill argument. Trans people used to HAVE to be referred for mental health evaluation and support before they could go down the transition route to see if there was any other explanation for maybe why they were feeling that way. For example, it's more common in those who have been sexually abused and therefore traumatised as a means to escape the body that experienced the trauma. If mental illness was ruled out back in the day then gender services would accept a referral. In recent years this was removed from the process. I saw these cases in clinic. FWIW I absolutely think there should be much more stringent mental health checks before going down that route but I also can't deny that some of those I saw seemingly were not suffering with any mental illness.
I’m sorry but your second paragraph is absurd. Of course they are mentally ill. Just because they “don’t seem to be suffering” doesn’t mean they are of sound mind. Being unable to accept a fact and believing a delusion is a major red flag that they are not of sound mind. It’s not intended as an insult, there’s no shame in suffering dysphoria and needing help.
It would be no different to me telling everyone I meet that I’m 6’2 when I’m actually 5’0. Would anyone say I was sane then? No, they’d say I needed support.
It is good to know that you are not of the opinion that it is “acceptance without exception” when it comes to people saying they are trans and that in the course of your professional life, you would explore other reasons for people identifying as trans particularly when it comes to people on the autism spectrum or those with ROGD. We have seen too many cases where young people are being affirmed without anyone probing into MH co-morbidities.
Someone I follow shared this post and one of the replies the other day but I didn't screenshot. Been trying to find it since and just found it.
Basically young girls and old men are trans. Says it all.
The replies are very good for the most part
Basically young girls and old men are trans. Says it all.
The replies are very good for the most part
Of course. I would be failing my patients if I didn't do that. Although it's not my place to push what I think on them. If someone is possibly going to make a life changing decision when there was the possibility that decision was being made for the 'wrong' reasons (I put that in quotation marks because we would all have different definitions of that). Some have realised it's something else driving it (e.g sexual abuse, just questioning their identity rather than being trans, ex etc) and decide to not pursue it. It's not for me to direct them either way, simply to explore with them if there's anything else underlying it.
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Then I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree. I simply cannot, in my professional opinion and experience, say every person who identifies as trans that I have met in a professional capacity is mentally ill.
The disproportionate number of young girls affected by this makes me desperately sad
I literally don’t care about the middle aged men (apart from the consequences of what they want access to)
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This
But they'll never have 'the parts' they want, it's not possible and literally everything comparable to 'Trans' is considered a mental illness so why do you think that trans isn't a mental illness.
I suppose you could then ask the same of people who have breast or bum implants or pen extension surgery etc etc. The parts being made aren't real but I doubt people would say everyone undergoing cosmetic surgery was mentally ill. Some are, some aren't. Technically a pen is an enlarged clitoris, men have breast tissue. You could argue the basis of the parts is technically there in both sexes.
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