Gender Discussion #59

[Satisfying Click]

I suppose you could then ask the same of people who have breast or bum implants or pen extension surgery etc etc. The parts being made aren't real but I doubt people would say everyone undergoing cosmetic surgery was mentally ill. Some are, some aren't. Technically a pen is an enlarged clitoris, men have breast tissue. You could argue the basis of the parts is technically there in both sexes.

A person undergoing a breast augmentation may be dissatisfied with their surgery, or have mental health issues, but the patient isn't demanding that the world pretend that they're Pamela Anderson and treat them as such.

The genital organs share the same embryological origin, but it doesn't mean one is technically the other, having undergone development and differentiation.

 

[Peachsquish]

Imo if you are threatening suicide if you don't get your own way re instant affirmation, including pronouns, medication or single sex spaces then you are either mentally ill or a raging narcissist

 

[SkippyDoo]

I suppose you could then ask the same of people who have breast or bum implants or pen extension surgery etc etc. The parts being made aren't real but I doubt people would say everyone undergoing cosmetic surgery was mentally ill. Some are, some aren't. Technically a pen is an enlarged clitoris, men have breast tissue. You could argue the basis of the parts is technically there in both sexes.

A pen is not, technically or otherwise, in any way accurately described as an “enlarged clitoris.” In what way is that statement accurate in the slightest?

Please explain how “the basis of the parts is technically there in both sexes.” In the sense that both sexes have genitalia?

 

[Miggsy]

I believe there are people who are “genuinely trans” in that they have gender dysphoria. What I do not accept is that this means they are or can become the opposite sex. Nor that other people should be compelled to go along with it.

Further to that I believe that if someone thinks there is a mismatch between one’s physical sexed body and the gender their brain thinks they are it can be nothing other than a mental illness as it’s certainly not normal!

 

[Daffodils_androses]

I believe there are people who are “genuinely trans” in that they have gender dysphoria. What I do not accept is that this means they are or can become the opposite sex. Nor that other people should be compelled to go along with it.

Further to that I believe that if someone thinks there is a mismatch between one’s physical sexed body and the gender their brain thinks they are it can be nothing other than a mental illness as it’s certainly not normal!

Well said!
The longer this goes crap goes on it only inspires more wokeness and stupidity. It also deprives the mentally ill of the help they so obviously need.

 

[Vanelope]

The aspect you are describing as ‘genuine trans’, being severe body dysmorphia, is not congruent with the overwhelming majority of transwomen who are driving this movement, that being AGP men who are sexually excited by pretending to be a woman and this urge now controls their entire lives. The validation and ‘euphoria’ they get from being in women’s spaces really is a euphemism for being turned on (and potentially sexually aggressive, let’s not forget that - rapists start as flashers).

In the last ten years men have realised they can get into women’s spaces by being openly trans, not a secret cross dresser, and they have done so. In the process they are harming children. They have no right to impose their beliefs on the world who doesn’t agree with them. For the safety of all women and girls all of these privileges they have demanded should be removed.

The internet and photo filters have convinced these men (and women) can ‘pass’ - in the real world I don’t think any do, it’s an uncanny valley but in person you can tell. Shape is wrong, proportion is off, a hormone altered voice sounds incorrect.

 

[Mismatched Pegs]

Imo if you are threatening suicide if you don't get your own way re instant affirmation, including pronouns, medication or single sex spaces then you are either mentally ill or a raging narcissist

All part of the Duluth Power & Control wheel. The similarities between the TRA playbook and Domestic Violence is really obvious when you look at it.

 

[Metropolis]

The aspect you are describing as ‘genuine trans’, being severe body dysmorphia, is not congruent with the overwhelming majority of transwomen who are driving this movement, that being AGP men who are sexually excited by pretending to be a woman and this urge now controls their entire lives.

Ergo we have men like this:

 

[petitspois]

The second you start acknowledging genuine and non genuine trans people then you start getting into knots about access to women’s spaces. The only way to ensure women’s safety, dignity and right to meet exclusively is to keep men out. All men.

 

[Peachsquish]

Just seen

Access Restricted

Saw thison another thread

 

[Notworthy]

I would love to see a comparision of the handmaidens like Emma Watson and their 'of course you are a Woman' bull and those same handmaidens attitude to any hint of cultural appropriation.

 

[Satisfying Click]

The second you start acknowledging genuine and non genuine trans people then you start getting into knots about access to women’s spaces. The only way to ensure women’s safety, dignity and right to meet exclusively is to keep men out. All men.

This. Whether someone is 'genuinely trans' or not is irrelevant. Men are still men, no matter how they believe otherwise, and have no place in women's spaces or sport.

 

[Vanelope]

I think we must read as pretty hard line and harsh to someone who has ventured over from a pro-trans outlook, but once you have seen the consequences of this insidious ideology, I don’t think you can have half measures, because TRAs don’t want half measures, they want absolute fiction recognised as fact with all of the suppression of women that entails. To me it’s the equivalent of forced religion, compelled thought, living under fundamentalist rule as a non-believer. The majority of people in the UK reject that (including me).

 

[Shinythings]

I think my problem with this thread is people like myself who support trans people as long as they aren't hurting anyone but are deeply critical about the trans movement and the abuse of this. Middle ground could be found here, open discussion could be found here but I feel like that is completely ignored in favour of shouting down the idea that trans people could possibly exist and they are all mentally ill deviants.

That's just as unproductive as the hardcore trans community cancelling anybody who doesn't blindly bow down to it all. There's no productive conversation to be had here.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

I am deeply concerned that any valid criticism of the trans movement results in people being cancelled and shut down. I'm concerned that people are encouraged to transition when they are clearly unsure or deeply troubled. I'm concerned that criminals are hiding behind it or using it to hide predatory behaviour. I'm worried all the previous mental health checks before people were allowed to go through the process have been removed. I'm concerned people are allowed to transition when they aren't old enough. All of that I agree with you all on but I feel nothing constructive can be discussed because I also said I do believe there are trans people out there where none of the above apply and I support their right to exist if they aren't hurting anyone.

 

[Satisfying Click]

Some of us are hard liners, but that's often based on past experience of male violence.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

Is it the same echo chamber as those who openly threaten violence against women who disagree with them? I might laugh at a bloke who has done a crappy job with make up, but I've yet to call on beheading TRAs, or report them to their employers in the hope that they will lose their jobs. I don't think the police are going to rush around with their clown car if I report a TWAW sticker, but I could be wrong.

I challenged you on a statement you made which I believed was misinformed, and some of your other statements generated discussion. If you choose to leave because you can't/won't respond to them, that's a shame, but up to you.

 

[Notworthy]

I think my problem with this thread is people like myself who support trans people as long as they aren't hurting anyone but are deeply critical about the trans movement and the abuse of this. Middle ground could be found here, open discussion could be found here but I feel like that is completely ignored in favour of shouting down the idea that trans people could possibly exist and they are all mentally ill deviants.

That's just as unproductive as the hardcore trans community cancelling anybody who doesn't blindly bow down to it all. There's no productive conversation to be had here.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

I am deeply concerned that any valid criticism of the trans movement results in people being cancelled and shut down. I'm concerned that people are encouraged to transition when they are clearly unsure or deeply troubled. I'm concerned that criminals are hiding behind it or using it to hide predatory behaviour. I'm worried all the previous mental health checks before people were allowed to go through the process have been removed. I'm concerned people are allowed to transition when they aren't old enough. All of that I agree with you all on but I feel nothing constructive can be discussed because I also said I do believe there are trans people out there where none of the above apply and I support their right to exist if they aren't hurting anyone.

You have completely misinterpreted what people on here have said. No one has said every single TiM or TiF is a mentally ill deviant. A vast proportion of the TiM are deviant but we all recognise that there are some people that genuinely do believe that they are born in the wrong body. That is still a symptom of mental illness. In fact the AGP ones aren't IMO mentally ill, they are just enacting their fetish very publicly because they have been enabled so you are the one actually being offensive by putting genuinely ill people into the same category as the fetishists.

 

[blahblahboring]

I get what you’re saying, but I think I just could never agree with your premise that there are genuine trans people who aren’t mentally ill. If a person has to live their life pretending to be something they’re not, I just can’t understand how that wouldn’t be considered mentally ill. I believe people with gender dysphoria need help and support and I, along with the other regular posters on this thread, would NEVER call for people to be killed, hurt, threatened etc because they’re ‘trans’ but I have a massive problem with the whole ideology and I won’t go along with any of it.

I think my problem with this thread is people like myself who support trans people as long as they aren't hurting anyone but are deeply critical about the trans movement and the abuse of this. Middle ground could be found here, open discussion could be found here but I feel like that is completely ignored in favour of shouting down the idea that trans people could possibly exist and they are all mentally ill deviants.

That's just as unproductive as the hardcore trans community cancelling anybody who doesn't blindly bow down to it all. There's no productive conversation to be had here.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

I am deeply concerned that any valid criticism of the trans movement results in people being cancelled and shut down. I'm concerned that people are encouraged to transition when they are clearly unsure or deeply troubled. I'm concerned that criminals are hiding behind it or using it to hide predatory behaviour. I'm worried all the previous mental health checks before people were allowed to go through the process have been removed. I'm concerned people are allowed to transition when they aren't old enough. All of that I agree with you all on but I feel nothing constructive can be discussed because I also said I do believe there are trans people out there where none of the above apply and I support their right to exist if they aren't hurting anyone.

 

[Notworthy]

FFS an article in The Independent littered with She JK Rowling criticises Sky News for referring to cat killer as woman: ‘I’m so sick of this’ (msn.com)

 

[Peachsquish]

I think my problem with this thread is people like myself who support trans people as long as they aren't hurting anyone but are deeply critical about the trans movement and the abuse of this. Middle ground could be found here, open discussion could be found here but I feel like that is completely ignored in favour of shouting down the idea that trans people could possibly exist and they are all mentally ill deviants.

That's just as unproductive as the hardcore trans community cancelling anybody who doesn't blindly bow down to it all. There's no productive conversation to be had here.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

I am deeply concerned that any valid criticism of the trans movement results in people being cancelled and shut down. I'm concerned that people are encouraged to transition when they are clearly unsure or deeply troubled. I'm concerned that criminals are hiding behind it or using it to hide predatory behaviour. I'm worried all the previous mental health checks before people were allowed to go through the process have been removed. I'm concerned people are allowed to transition when they aren't old enough. All of that I agree with you all on but I feel nothing constructive can be discussed because I also said I do believe there are trans people out there where none of the above apply and I support their right to exist if they aren't hurting anyone.

If they are using women's spaces or in women's sports then they are hurting people.
You only have to look at Emily (Zach) Bridges crying genocide about not being able to ever cycle again.
The truth is Emily can compete but in the open category not the women's. However Emily only wants to cycle in the women's and so has sued cycling.

 

[Mugglewump]

I suppose you could then ask the same of people who have breast or bum implants or pen extension surgery etc etc. The parts being made aren't real but I doubt people would say everyone undergoing cosmetic surgery was mentally ill. Some are, some aren't. Technically a pen is an enlarged clitoris, men have breast tissue. You could argue the basis of the parts is technically there in both sexes.

A pen is not an enlarged clitoris, that's complete tosh.
Someone having breast implants wants larger breasts, someone having gender reassignment surgery wants to pretend they are something that they can never be, not remotely similar, but I'm sure you know this.