Gender Discussion #59

[Shinythings]

Some of us are hard liners, but that's often based on past experience of male violence.



Is it the same echo chamber as those who openly threaten violence against women who disagree with them? I might laugh at a bloke who has done a crappy job with make up, but I've yet to call on beheading TRAs, or report them to their employers in the hope that they will lose their jobs. I don't think the police are going to rush around with their clown car if I report a TWAW sticker, but I could be wrong.

I challenged you on a statement you made which I believed was misinformed, and some of your other statements generated discussion. If you choose to leave because you can't/won't respond to them, that's a shame, but up to you.

Granted it's certainly not as strong as that but it does feel like the line in here is trans people don't exist and are either mentally ill or predators trying to hide. It doesn't seem like there's any room to discuss any other possibility and I don't agree with people going out their way to be disrespectful. E.g in the Brianna Ghey thread people going out their way to use male pronouns when it's just not necessary and not the place when a person has been murdered. I suppose that's what I'm getting at.

I may have missed a question. What was it I haven't answered or given my opinion in?

 

[weeweegie]

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick @Shinythings, as we don’t all have the exact same thoughts and opinions in here. Some take a harder line than others. But none of us deny trans people exist or that some genuinely do just want to live their life without fuss. But at the heart of it is this notion of being born in the wrong body, meaning there must be a gendered soul inside all of us? Or that there are male brains and female brains, which there are not. Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition (which trans people managed to change so it wasn’t classed as such). It’s a real condition that causes a lot of distress and anguish, I don’t think any of us here would ever deny that or not feel for a person in such distress. But that does not, in my view, make them ‘genuinely trans’, it makes them genuinely gender dysphoric.

The problem now that it’s fashionable is so many men (AGP and just wrong uns) are claiming a trans identity, having never experienced gender dysphoria and they are trying to destroy women’s rights, that we have fought so hard for.

Some posters may sound harsh to your ears but I hope you stick around and listen to all of us and contribute your own thoughts. I certainly don’t hate trans people, like most of us here feel, it’s the only place online we can talk about these things without being told we are hateful bigots, which I don’t think any of us are.

 

[Peachsquish]

Granted it's certainly not as strong as that but it does feel like the line in here is trans people don't exist and are either mentally ill or predators trying to hide. It doesn't seem like there's any room to discuss any other possibility and I don't agree with people going out their way to be disrespectful. E.g in the Brianna Ghey thread people going out their way to use male pronouns when it's just not necessary and not the place when a person has been murdered. I suppose that's what I'm getting at.

I may have missed a question. What was it I haven't answered or given my opinion in?

Why should we use wrong pronouns. If I use the wrong pronoun for the 'nice trans' who just wants to live their life then I have also use it for Katie Dolatowski the trans paedophile, Karen White the trans rapist and of course Scarlet Blake the trans murderer.

 

[Shinythings]

If they are using women's spaces or in women's sports then they are hurting people.
You only have to look at Emily (Zach) Bridges crying genocide about not being able to ever cycle again.
The truth is Emily can compete but in the open category not the women's. However Emily only wants to cycle in the women's and so has sued cycling.

I agree with this point on sport. I don't feel trans athletes should compete in the same category as non trans athletes.

But there are also plenty of trans people going about their lives not hurting anyone. Who is it hurting (even if you don't agree with it) if Sandra born as Bob transitions in their 40's, goes to work at their 9-5 office job and comes home and binges tit TV like the rest of us because that is how a lot of trans people live their lives. I feel like people are taking examples of 'bad trans people ' and applying it to everyone.

 

[Vanelope]

Support trans people as long as they aren’t hurting others

most people agree with that, but we probably disagree on the ‘hurt’ or ‘harm’ that can be caused.

Does it hurt women when a trans person (without being overtly freaky or weird) uses a female bathroom or swims in a woman’s session or goes to a womens’s changing room?

I would say yes, because it violates their privacy and known boundaries. You might think no because they aren’t attacking women.

does it harm women to have their word, their descriptor, extended to include male people while they are described as ‘uterus owners’ or ‘non-men’. The entire concept harms women because it reduces us to being not what they think a man is, we are not men with less testosterone.

 

[Notworthy]

So what is Trans if it's not a mental health disorder and if it's not a disorder then why is there treatment on the NHS.

 

[Mugglewump]

The last person who came over here to tell us off ended up being peaked and stayed...

 

[Notworthy]

Support trans people as long as they aren’t hurting others

most people agree with that, but we probably disagree on the ‘hurt’ or ‘harm’ that can be caused.

Does it hurt women when a trans person (without being overtly freaky or weird) uses a female bathroom or swims in a woman’s session or goes to a womens’s changing room?

I would say yes, because it violates their privacy and known boundaries. You might think no because they aren’t attacking women.

does it harm women to have their word, their descriptor, extended to include male people while they are described as ‘uterus owners’ or ‘non-men’. The entire concept harms women because it reduces us to being not what they think a man is, we are not men with less testosterone.

We know that this then prevents biological Women from religious communities from accessing these facilities.

 

[petitspois]

I think my problem with this thread is people like myself who support trans people as long as they aren't hurting anyone but are deeply critical about the trans movement and the abuse of this. Middle ground could be found here, open discussion could be found here but I feel like that is completely ignored in favour of shouting down the idea that trans people could possibly exist and they are all mentally ill deviants.

That's just as unproductive as the hardcore trans community cancelling anybody who doesn't blindly bow down to it all. There's no productive conversation to be had here.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

I am deeply concerned that any valid criticism of the trans movement results in people being cancelled and shut down. I'm concerned that people are encouraged to transition when they are clearly unsure or deeply troubled. I'm concerned that criminals are hiding behind it or using it to hide predatory behaviour. I'm worried all the previous mental health checks before people were allowed to go through the process have been removed. I'm concerned people are allowed to transition when they aren't old enough. All of that I agree with you all on but I feel nothing constructive can be discussed because I also said I do believe there are trans people out there where none of the above apply and I support their right to exist if they aren't hurting anyone.

The thing is, trans people can live their lives without hurting anyone. They have the same human rights as everyone else. If a man wants to dress as a woman and live a quiet life theny he can. He remains a man legally and should not be allowed to change gender or use women's spaces. He is marginalised but that's life. That's his choice. We are talking about a very very small number of people and I am far more concerned about other marginalised groups such as disabled people than I am men who choose to dress as women.

Frankly, I genuinely believe any woman supporting a man's right to appear as a woman needs to really take stock of their reasoning and see how indoctrinated you have become to the effects of this deeply patriarchal society we live in.

 

[Shinythings]

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick @Shinythings, as we don’t all have the exact same thoughts and opinions in here. Some take a harder line than others. But none of us deny trans people exist or that some genuinely do just want to live their life without fuss. But at the heart of it is this notion of being born in the wrong body, meaning there must be a gendered soul inside all of us? Or that there are male brains and female brains, which there are not. Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition (which trans people managed to change so it wasn’t classed as such). It’s a real condition that causes a lot of distress and anguish, I don’t think any of us here would ever deny that or not feel for a person in such distress. But that does not, in my view, make them ‘genuinely trans’, it makes them genuinely gender dysphoric.

The problem now that it’s fashionable is so many men (AGP and just wrong uns) are claiming a trans identity, having never experienced gender dysphoria and they are trying to destroy women’s rights, that we have fought so hard for.

Some posters may sound harsh to your ears but I hope you stick around and listen to all of us and contribute your own thoughts. I certainly don’t hate trans people, like most of us here feel, it’s the only place online we can talk about these things without being told we are hateful bigots, which I don’t think any of us are.

First paragraph I do and don't agree. Yes GD is a mental health issue but in my experience it's not causing someone to feel they are trans, it's a side effect if you will of being trans. Who wouldn't experience dysphoria if you felt you were in the wrong body. I see it as an effect rather than casual. But not all trans people experience dysphoria, they may feel uncomfortable in their body to buy not a diagnosable level.

Second paragraph completely agree.

 

[DoraMaar]

Granted it's certainly not as strong as that but it does feel like the line in here is trans people don't exist and are either mentally ill or predators trying to hide. It doesn't seem like there's any room to discuss any other possibility and I don't agree with people going out their way to be disrespectful. E.g in the Brianna Ghey thread people going out their way to use male pronouns when it's just not necessary and not the place when a person has been murdered. I suppose that's what I'm getting at.

I may have missed a question. What was it I haven't answered or given my opinion in?

Language is important. Redefining the meaning of 'women' has caused this problem and the 'be kind' handmaidens who pretend there are 'real trans' people allowed women to be marginalised. From conception, male embroyos become male babies, become boys, become men - that's science and reality. BG did not have a GRC, hadn't had any surgery and clearly had many mental health issues - there is no reason not to refer to BG as male.

 

[Shinythings]

The thing is, trans people can live their lives without hurting anyone. They have the same human rights as everyone else. If a man wants to dress as a woman and live a quiet life theny he can. He remains a man legally and should not be allowed to change gender or use women's spaces. He is marginalised but that's life. That's his choice. We are talking about a very very small number of people and I am far more concerned about other marginalised groups such as disabled people than I am men who choose to dress as women.

Frankly, I genuinely believe any woman supporting a man's right to appear as a woman needs to really take stock of their reasoning and see how indoctrinated you have become to the effects of this deeply patriarchal society we live in.

See that last paragraph is what I'm talking about. That's very divisory. I support a woman's right to appear as a man so how could I not support a man's right to appear as a woman? I absolutely get the concern with the latter but that is again tarring every trans woman with the same brush which to me is unfair. I can't be against men because some of them are rapists and murderers.

 

[Vanelope]

What do you mean a woman’s right to appear as a man?

I don’t think women should be going in to men’s spaces or bathrooms either (except the protests at Hampstead ponds).

 

[Shinythings]

Language is important. Redefining the meaning of 'women' has caused this problem and the 'be kind' handmaidens who pretend there are 'real trans' people allowed women to be marginalised. From conception, male embroyos become male babies, become boys, become men - that's science and reality. BG did not have a GRC, hadn't had any surgery and clearly had many mental health issues - there is no reason not to refer to BG as male.

My point is there's a time and a place. There's no need to rush into that thread and be all 'you mean HE was murdered' as a lot of people were. There's a time and place and that was not it. It just comes across as bleep tbh and it doesn't help the cause.

 

[skronkywildcat]

If you’re talking about Brianna Ghey - some of us said she and some of us just called Brianna “Brianna”.

Our main issue with the whole sad story is that it was painted as a transphobic murder when they had a whole kill list of people who weren’t trans and Brianna was the unfortunate one who took the bait.

 

[Metropolis]

I think my problem with this thread is people like myself who support trans people as long as they aren't hurting anyone but are deeply critical about the trans movement and the abuse of this. Middle ground could be found here, open discussion could be found here but I feel like that is completely ignored in favour of shouting down the idea that trans people could possibly exist and they are all mentally ill deviants.

That's just as unproductive as the hardcore trans community cancelling anybody who doesn't blindly bow down to it all. There's no productive conversation to be had here.

With that in mind, I'm bowing out because it's not going anywhere. I came here for some interesting discussion that might change my mind but to be honest it's the same echo chamber you claim to hate the 'other' side doing.

I am deeply concerned that any valid criticism of the trans movement results in people being cancelled and shut down. I'm concerned that people are encouraged to transition when they are clearly unsure or deeply troubled. I'm concerned that criminals are hiding behind it or using it to hide predatory behaviour. I'm worried all the previous mental health checks before people were allowed to go through the process have been removed. I'm concerned people are allowed to transition when they aren't old enough. All of that I agree with you all on but I feel nothing constructive can be discussed because I also said I do believe there are trans people out there where none of the above apply and I support their right to exist if they aren't hurting anyone.

I think the problem comes with the discussion over what “hurting anyone” means. I agree that people should be able to present how they wish if that’s what makes them feel comfortable, but I don’t think that how they dress or ‘identify’ qualifies a person to enter single-sex spaces (which have been designated single-sex largely to protect women) e.g changing rooms, refuges and toilets. Obviously there’s a huge issue with sport as well. I imagine in your profession you must come across a lot of women traumatised by male violence who cannot bear to be in a confined space with men, no matter how they present. This is why the desires of trans people to affirm themselves cannot be put above the needs of women.

 

[Princess She-Ra]

I agree with this point on sport. I don't feel trans athletes should compete in the same category as non trans athletes.

But there are also plenty of trans people going about their lives not hurting anyone. Who is it hurting (even if you don't agree with it) if Sandra born as Bob transitions in their 40's, goes to work at their 9-5 office job and comes home and binges tit TV like the rest of us because that is how a lot of trans people live their lives. I feel like people are taking examples of 'bad trans people ' and applying it to everyone.

Because “Sandra” would then be recorded as female in their workplace. They could then take advantage of any schemes that were designed to help real women progress in their career and effect the (probable) gender pay gap. The company would then get to tick their boxes on inclusion and equality without spending a penny or genuinely helping women, who often have a caring role (childcare/elderly parents) in addition to their “paid” work.

I hope you can stick around to hear lots of opinions. I really recommend “Invisible Women” by Caroline Criado Perez. To opened my eyes to how much women are disadvantaged to men in so many areas. We need to stick up for our hard fought rights and advocate for equality. Letting anyone say they “feel like a woman” become one just blows my mind!

 

[Tofino]

Granted it's certainly not as strong as that but it does feel like the line in here is trans people don't exist and are either mentally ill or predators trying to hide. It doesn't seem like there's any room to discuss any other possibility and I don't agree with people going out their way to be disrespectful. E.g in the Brianna Ghey thread people going out their way to use male pronouns when it's just not necessary and not the place when a person has been murdered. I suppose that's what I'm getting at.

I may have missed a question. What was it I haven't answered or given my opinion in?

What is it you actually want to hear when it comes to existence? And what is the middle ground you want to see?

For me the middle ground is that people can dress or style themselves how they want. They can do any activity they want as long as they don’t impose themselves on groups specifically for the opposite sex (like women’s sports for example). If they want to tell themselves they are the opposite sex then whatever, I can’t control their thoughts.

Expecting me to go along with the pretence they have changed sex is not middle ground. It’s forcing someone else’s belief on to me. And whilst on an individual level it might seem like ‘the kind thing to do’ to just use their preferred pronouns and pretend they have changed sex, it’s still forcing people to accept something they don’t believe in when it has far wider implications - it’s just the beginning of the snowball so to speak.

And whilst it’s very sad what happened to Brianna, it doesn’t change any of this. Surely it’s hypocritical or insulting of me to only use someone’s preferred pronouns once they are dead

 

[petitspois]

See that last paragraph is what I'm talking about. That's very divisory. I support a woman's right to appear as a man so how could I not support a man's right to appear as a woman? I absolutely get the concern with the latter but that is again tarring every trans woman with the same brush which to me is unfair. I can't be against men because some of them are rapists and murderers.

I'm talking about women's tendency to accommodate, placate, accept and adapt to suit men. I can't summarise what it means to grow up and live in a patriarchal society but a few minutes on Google is pretty illuminating. There absolutely is a divide in this world - men kill, grape and hurt women in staggering numbers and we need protections, both in terms of spaces and in the law.

The 'be kind' movement has a lot to answer for. Where are the men arguing for a woman's right to dress as a man and telling their peers off for not accepting genuine trans men? it would never happen. We are having our spaces invaded yet a significant proportion of women are supporting it!

The crux of the argument for me is that the second you move from 'men are men and women are women' then it's just the thin end of the wedge - how can you legislate for 'genuine' people and their motivations? it's impossible. If that means a very small number of people (mainly men) are impacted negatively then I don't care. It keeps women's lives much safer.

 

[Mugglewump]

I'm not a total bleep about it but I never use opposite sex pronouns, that's a line I hold, others make their own choice.