Gender Discussion #39

[Autumncolors]

Terrifying

What it's like to be a pupil today as trans hysteria grips our schools

After becoming upset by the school's acceptance of transgender ideology, this 14-year-old female student has decided to expose the truth about life in an ongoing culture war.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I hope this is fake .

 

[Blockster]

It’s hilarious and depressing that on the Jack Monroe thread there are people who see through her grift but are still so utterly in thrall to gender bullshit that to suggest Jack isn’t actually “non binary” - and that the concept of non-binary is designed to enable the Jacks of this world - just seems to not compute with them

Non entity!

 

[Sea]

I got my uterus removed and don’t have periods anymore. I still have my female hormones and cycle so I still have PMS because I am a woman who has not reached menopause yet.



Even I, being a woman, don’t pretend having periods because I don’t have a uterus. I know what it is to be a young woman with periods and to be a young woman without periods.







How can they appropriate this very female peculiarity?!!!











[/aQUOTE]

Why is Gary Numan talking about apples and oranges, sitting here in his car?


(grabs coat and leaves the forum🫣)

 

[Ensay]

People disagreeing with you doesn't mean you were able to watch the video objectively and they weren't Ensay.

In my opinion It's a shite music video regardless of the music artist involved.

I thought it was obvious I was giving an opinion - ie I think some people are letting their bias get in the way. Clearly not everyone will agree with me, but that's life.

I do bite my tongue quite a bit on Tattle because there's a prevailing view on almost every thread, and if you stick your head above the parapet to say you disagree with the majority, a lot of people don't like it. But I couldn't help speak out this time as I really don't get the fuss or the outrage in this particular case.

 

[Glortard]

The BBC and other outlets are reporting him as a man. My (facetious) question would be: What makes him “less of a woman” than Adam (can’t remember his last name)? In fact, I would have thought they’d be more inclined to refer to “Amy” as a “woman” because local and vocal people online are saying he’s been dressing like this for years and years, compared to the rapist who started when he was arrested and awaiting trial.

And it’s not because the BBC has had a change of heart, or decided to report accurately. They KNOW that this would be framed as another horrible story concerning a trans woman, and a negative story for Nicola Sturgeon, so soon after the other one, so are reporting accurately but not with good conscience.

It could simply be that he has been arrested - asked what his name is to which he has replied with Andrew Miller and assuming he has been asked sex replied a man. This has then been reported by the police and thus through the press as a man. BBC and others maybe covering their ass by also stating the other name he sometimes goes by.

 

[Ensay]

I get people don't like Sam Smith for the daft they/them pronoun thing, but I can't help feel at least some of the objection to him is a bit puritanical.

I mean, Madonna was doing videos like that to 'shock' in the 1980s and here we are in the 2020s and some people are still clutching their pearls in mock horror. I think it risks undermining the position, as it makes it seem like any objection to trans stuff is rooted in Mary Whitehouse mentality.

I know it isn't, but the high horse tutting is a bit much at times.

 

[weeweegie]

Did anyone catch the chat on this morning? I missed it but I’d be curious how it was approached.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Jane Clare Jones has left Twitter but she seemed to be the ringleader of the hate mob, along with Jeni Harvey (and others) who love to pile in and haughtily denounce anyone whose ever stood within a 50m radius of KJK. I’m so sick of it but they keep bringing it back up.

Before all this I bought JCJ’s TERF Wars book because I wanted to support her work, but I feel like a mug, mainly because the writing is impenetrable wank.

What this? Impenetrable? Surely not.

 

[Miss Begotten]

I actually agree with Owen there - don't faint.


Of course the Daily Mail is whipping its readers up into a moral outrage, demanding to know why kids can view it on YouTube, etc. But that's a YouTube problem that's existed long before Sam Smith's videos. Children shouldn't be allowed unfettered access to YouTube anyway and that's the responsibility of parents, no one else.

So, as per usual, it's much ado about nothing!

I think I sort of agree with you. I haven’t watched the whole video, mainly because I’m not a fan of Sam Smith’s music, so the idea of having to listen to his singing AND watch him at the same time is a bit much. But from the clips I’ve seen there’s absolutely nothing in there that hasn’t been done before.
Your point about the double standards is spot on.It’s pretty rich of the DM to be winding themselves into a fury over this particular video. This is the same DM that wanks itself silly over photo after photo of women in bikinis frolicking in the surf, flaunting their curves in next to nothing or taking an impromptu shower in the Trafalgar Square fountain.
If they want to start a discussion about morality, perhaps they need to start with looking at themselves.

 

[Peachsquish]

But surely those staff always take precautions because anyone could technically have contaminated blood regardless of sexual orientation and if they’re monogamous or not. The risk to donor staff is lower in certain groups but can never be ruled out.

Yet the article makes it sound like the risk to donor staff is specific to male donors who’ve had sex with men in the last 3 months.

I’m not getting at you, I just feel I’m more attuned to spotting homophobic prejudice as it’s relevant to me. A bit like how women are better placed to call out sexism against women etc.

Not getting at you either but the US blood service and its staff and volunteers have decided that the 3 month rule is one that carries the least risk to all.
Whether the rule is homophobic or not is not this issue, it is a separate issue entirely.

All health and safety guidelines and risk assessments to all will have been based on this rule, to then allow anyone to self identify out of the rules is putting the safety of others at risk and taking their free will away from them, we cannot know if any people would choose not to volunteer if the rule wasn't in place. Self id removes their choice from them.

 

[Ensay]

I think most people, yes the silent majority, recognise the gestures for the tokenism they are and just dislike them as they are divisive in nature. And that includes gay people too.

I've never heard any gay people complain about them. Obviously some will, but I don't think there's widespread dislike of them.

I don't believe people really have any genuine issue with them, they just invent complaints about cost and horses. It's kinda transparent.

As usual it's divisive people who complain about division.

 

[Ensay]

.

Was Madonna doing multiple simulated golden showers?
Is this what artists do? Not my fortè but It's OTT imo.

It wouldn't surprise me if she had. I think some of the things in her 'Sex' book were probably worse to be honest. She also did the whole burning crosses thing to piss religious people off.

It's just classic attention seeking which popstars have done for ages.

The whole right wing "omg it's so shocking!" trope is so faux and overdone, as though the people who say such things are whiter than white. I'm willing to bet they're not.

We used to be free of that Fox News mentality, but it's worming its way in over here as well.

---

I think I find Smith a bit pitiful because the stuff is not actually as wild/transgressive as Smith thinks? Because as you mention Madonna etc have done it all before. So too have loads of performance artists (Though personally I think that sort of performance art is bad).

Yeah exactly. I don't like him much and I'm not gonna pander to the 'they/them' thing, but acting like he's some dangerous monster is hilarious.

By the way, like my last couple of comments, I'm talking generally, it's not aimed at you or anyone here in particular.

 

[Ensay]

The homophobia is 100% from the American Red Cross announcement, not the Reduxx reply reporting of it.

I disagree. The article is written in a 'panic' type fashion. The bit in bold is weird:

This change would allow a homosexual or bisexual male to present at the clinic and self-describe himself as “female” or “trans” and be exempted from the 3-month deferral typically associated with males who actively engage in sexual activity with other males. This may pose a risk to both the Red Cross staff, the donor, and the viability of blood donations.

Why would the Red Cross staff be at risk if a sexually active gay man presented himself at a donor centre?! It's like they think any gay man who's had sex in the last 3 months is diseased and that the disease can jump from the person to the staff at the donor centre through the air!

I don't want to derail*, and I get the risk being outlined to the blood, but saying donor staff are at risk and the salacious reporting is shitty. In my opinion. I just have to call out homophobia when I see it.
(*I might resurrect the LGB thread )

 

[Glortard]

I disagree. The article is written in a 'panic' type fashion. The bit in bold is weird:

This change would allow a homosexual or bisexual male to present at the clinic and self-describe himself as “female” or “trans” and be exempted from the 3-month deferral typically associated with males who actively engage in sexual activity with other males. This may pose a risk to both the Red Cross staff, the donor, and the viability of blood donations.

Why would the Red Cross staff be at risk if a sexually active gay man presented himself at a donor centre?! It's like they think any gay man who's had sex in the last 3 months is diseased and that the disease can jump from the person to the staff at the donor centre through the air!

I don't want to derail*, and I get the risk being outlined to the blood, but saying donor staff are at risk and the salacious reporting is shitty. In my opinion. I just have to call out homophobia when I see it.
(*I might resurrect the LGB thread )

From infected blood as 65% of new infections of HIV where in MSM group. Whilst there are protocols in place for infections there is still a very minimal risk of someone being infected. I am pretty sure they did not mention viruses jumping through the air in the article.

 

[Ensay]

But nobody is seeing the act of water being sprayed as obscene though, are they? It’s the deliberate intention behind it. Just one look at the picture above shows very clearly that there was sexual motivations behind it and it isn’t something as innocent as water being sprayed like you’ve compared it too

But because he’s not having actual piss sprayed at him, it’s alright

The thing is though someone needs to know the concept to understand what it's getting at. And if they know the concept then it's not like the video is introducing them to it.

If someone doesn't know the concept then they won't understand what it means either. Hence why I don't get the fuss.

I'm gonna be honest here, it's mostly people that don't like Sam Smith who are making a bigger thing of it. I don't like him either, nor do I agree with the whole non-binary thing, but I can at least watch the video objectively.

 

[Ensay]

Or alternatively, men in men’s toilets could just not be aggressive to other men who present differently I suppose. I mean, I’ve seen no evidence that this is really the case but that’s what we are led to believe.
I did previously think a third space would be the answer, but most of them say they don’t want it and I think it would just inevitably end up as rank as the men’s does if men who identify as women used it - in effect it would end up being a situation where there are two sets of facilities for men and one for women.
I also think it would be a bit unfair for public facilities to suffer such a great upheaval and cost for less than 1% of the population. Money could be spent on improving things like Changing Places for disabled people with carers who need hoists etc., changing toilets and facilities for parents or mums with babies who are breastfeeding, regular disabled toilets and so on - these groups together are a much larger section of the population but are seen as comparatively unimportant. The improvement of services for everyone is supposedly one of the reasons behind doing a regular census, but all we ever hear about is what trans or non binary ‘folk’ need. What about everyone else?

It's not ideal, but I think if we keep things as they are, trans women will continue to enter women's toilets regardless, as they won't want to go into the male toilets. So, while I agree a third space may well just be for biological men, they're surely better in there than women's toilets. That's the angle I'm coming from.

I'm not saying the other things aren't important, and they can be lobbied for as well.
---

to all this! Have you all seen the horses reacting to the rainbow zebra crossings? I actually can’t quite believe the incredible stupidity of whoever thought that would be a good idea. Clearly inclusion doesn’t matter if it’s blind people, autistic people, people with dementia, children..
It’s like a literal physical representation of how this shit fucks up safeguarding.

Oh come on, they're mostly temporary. How often do horses cross rainbow zebra crossings? Talk about creating an issue out of something small.

 

[Ensay]

Maybe it’s because I’m over 40 and I haven’t watched a contemporary music video in years. Maybe it’s because I’m a TERF and more sensitive to these issues now. Maybe it’s because I’ve only seen clips of the Sam Smith video and not the whole thing, but my impression was that it was more porn soaked than the average sexually explicit music video (and sexually explicit videos are not new - I’m old enough to know that).

I think it’s disingenuous to say this kind of open-mouthed, eyes-closed posturing is like watching someone drink at a water fountain. It’s so obviously pornified, but not just pornified in a “look how fuckable I am” way, like the old days, it’s pornified in a “let’s push the envelope and normalise paraphilias” way.

View attachment 1921805

I honestly don't think it's any worse than anything Madonna trotted out in the 80s.

And the fact the above image has been posted here repeatedly is surely evidence that it's pretty tame. If it was too explicit, I don't think anyone would post it here and certainly not without spoiler tags.

But I've said my piece now.

 

[Ensay]

I'm afraid it wasn't obvious. At least to me. The tone of your post made it seem like you were claiming objectivity in a way which seemed to imply you thought others weren't watching it objectively.

But whatever.

Well, I'm glad I was able to clarify it for you.

 

[Ensay]

The golden shower / face jizzing scenes though I'm not sure anyone wants to see, from either Styles or Smith

Is that what it is, though? How do you know?

 

[Ensay]

Does Ross really think that, or is it just easy to take a potshot at the opposition?