Gender Discussion #39

[Vanelope]

As much as I have zero sympathy for the situation Nicola Sturgeon has found herself in, it is starting to really annoy me that no journalists have ever grilled any of the tory leaders in that way on why there are trans women in womens prisons in England (correct me if I’m wrong here). As it’s been going on for years in all parts of the UK by all accounts? I suppose it’s the timing of the gender reform and this Adam Graham rapist in the headlines that’s put the spotlight on NS but it just kinda reeks of a witch-hunt that she’s the only one being blamed when it’s been happening in England for years and years.

No trans prisoners without a GRC could be in a women’s prison and getting GRC remains more difficult in England. In October the guidelines were changed to prevent any transwomen who retained male genitalia or were sex offenders from being in a women’s prison.

NS is an easy target because of the GRC reform and the recent clear case taking advantage of it.

All politicians particularly Kier Starmer need to get onside with women.

 

[DoraMaar]

 

[katyazamo]

So the last few days on Instagram there have been posts about how research spanning the last 10 years has proven that transgender individuals have no advantage when it comes to sport.

Have any of you read this research? If you have read it what do you think of it? I just don't understand how someone who was born a biological man doesn't have the upper hand against women.

Also, I'm assuming that these biological men will at least have to have transitioned and that self ID'ing as a woman without hormones, surgery etc. won't be allowed. I feel like these are questions you can't even ask without being jumped on online.

Trying to reason with these people is just asking for trouble. I don't engage with any of it. You'll be jumped on and accused of transphobia for saying you don't believe a 6'2 biological man can possibly be similar to a 5'3 woman when it comes to sport. There is no common sense with these people but actually they don't want to listen, they just immediately go on the attack because deep down, they KNOW they are not women.

They know they have an advantage in sport but will happily gaslight us to convince us otherwise. Making up studies and evidence that doesn't exist for one. Bleating on about how they're actually a woman so how can they possibly have an advantage, because "trans women are women".

Even if they don't have an advantage, why should women accept male bodies in sport. I'm tired of women's spaces and activities being forced to accommodate these men. Compete with men or campaign for a third category. Just leave women's sport alone.

 

[Tea_and_Biscuits]

Do they screen the blood donations for HIV, etc ?

The UK Blood Service tests for HIV, Hep B, Hep C, Help E, Syphilis and human T-lymphotropic virus, and sometimes additional tests such as for malaria (which I'm assuming will be if you're assessed to be at high risk).

Tests we carry out

Find out more information for blood donors about the screening tests we carry out on every single blood donation.

www.blood.co.uk

 

[VC10]

Trying to reason with these people is just asking for trouble. I don't engage with any of it. You'll be jumped on and accused of transphobia for saying you don't believe a 6'2 biological man can possibly be similar to a 5'3 woman when it comes to sport. There is no common sense with these people but actually they don't want to listen, they just immediately go on the attack because deep down, they KNOW they are not women.

They know they have an advantage in sport but will happily gaslight us to convince us otherwise. Making up studies and evidence that doesn't exist for one. Bleating on about how they're actually a woman so how can they possibly have an advantage, because "trans women are women".

Even if they don't have an advantage, why should women accept male bodies in sport. I'm tired of women's spaces and activities being forced to accommodate these men. Compete with men or campaign for a third category. Just leave women's sport alone.

Yes. There needs to be a third category- and no choice with entry. It's that-or nothing.

 

[Vanelope]

So a pregnant woman is left brain dead on machines and the ethical dilemma is do they carry her baby to term (as they presume she would have wanted) while on life support to deliver a baby to a grieving family.

The sentence ‘no obvious medical reason why a pregnancy could not be initiated’ is a massive red flag. How do you know? The body does start to shut down after brain death and keeping someone alive on machines after that point is unethical. For 9 months of pregnancy? Never moving? Abusing a persons body after death is a crime. Impregnating them, so many barriers to a successfully fertilisation with a body that is being artificially kept going. I know people write these papers to gain notoriety but this is absurd. Body autonomy exists. You cannot take donor organs if the person does not consent. I’m utterly appalled that this was written down.

 

[Xales]

not one of them can answer this kind of question! The house of cards comes tumbling down so fast!

If they just ask 'should a male go to a female prison' the answer seems obvious

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

So a pregnant woman is left brain dead on machines and the ethical dilemma is do they carry her baby to term (as they presume she would have wanted) while on life support to deliver a baby to a grieving family.

The sentence ‘no obvious medical reason why a pregnancy could not be initiated’ is a massive red flag. How do you know? The body does start to shut down after brain death and keeping someone alive on machines after that point is unethical. For 9 months of pregnancy? Never moving? Abusing a persons body after death is a crime. Impregnating them, so many barriers to a successfully fertilisation with a body that is being artificially kept going. I know people write these papers to gain notoriety but this is absurd. Body autonomy exists. You cannot take donor organs if the person does not consent. I’m utterly appalled that this was written down.

This actually happened in Ireland back in 2014. Doctors decided to keep a 26-year-old woman on life support for 4 weeks as her foetus still had a heartbeat. There was confusion about the right to life of the fetus which existed in Irish Law at the time. It was against her husband's and families wishes. Her daughter was left traumatised after it.

A baby more than likely would not survive to term in this scenario is my understanding.

Brain-dead pregnant woman’s life support can be switched off, Irish court rules

Ireland’s high court grants family wish that she be allowed to die, in landmark judgment that challenges constitution

www.theguardian.com

 

[Glortard]

Your last paragraph is sorta what I was thinking the case must be. I have done a lot of unfollowing this week as anyone who shares these studies do not seem to want to look at them in depth and anyone who asks questions just have their heads bitten off.

Funnily enough I'm also finding it hard to find the link to the study they speak about and I do generally like to read these things and make my own mind up but as of now I have no idea of sample size, conditions etc.

Its in Rhys McKinnon's head as every other study shows what we all know

 

[Peachsquish]

Just seen

'I was sacked for being a transphobe'

When maths teacher Kevin Lister received a message from his 17-year-old student, Lizzie, telling him she would now like to be called Liam, he was concerned.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[RunRunRun]

I seem to remember that there was some research done at some point for the IOC (I think) into trans women advantage. Based on a small sample size, including the author of the study. I think all the subjects were over 50. So apart from the probable outcome that it was a biased study and the subjects didn’t try very hard, age would have been a factor in reducing capability. This single piece of ‘evidence’ is what sporting governing bodies used to shape policy.

From googling I *think* this is the study, but I’m not awake enough to properly understand it. I can’t see a reference to the age of the subjects so it might not be the right one. https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/docum...&doi=70d8ffb81f6c24461fa7972d527cd48511a9d19d

And this is an article that references another bit of research that I might be mixing my memories up with. https://www.science.org/content/art...nsitions-alter-athletic-performance-including

 

[MmmB777]

Oof. It’s so hilarious to watch these people squirm second video in the thread too.

 

[HoGi]

So the last few days on Instagram there have been posts about how research spanning the last 10 years has proven that transgender individuals have no advantage when it comes to sport.



Have any of you read this research? If you have read it what do you think of it? I just don't understand how someone who was born a biological man doesn't have the upper hand against women.



Also, I'm assuming that these biological men will at least have to have transitioned and that self ID'ing as a woman without hormones, surgery etc. won't be allowed. I feel like these are questions you can't even ask without being jumped on online.

So I have just seen a tweet saying that recent research shows that trans athletes have no advantage. When asked for their source they linked...cosmo magazine

 

[threeSMEGfridges]

FFS = female fetishisation surgery
---

26 year old trans child molester in California who plead guilty for the sexual assault of a 10 year old girl when he was 17 is sentenced to two years in a female juvenile youth facility. He will not be made to sign the sex offender register on his release.

James “Hannah” Tubbs:

View attachment 1922472

So children as young as 12 are prosecuted as adults for killing an abuser or committing other (bad but not rapey) crimes…

BUT A 26 YEAR OLD GOES TO A JUBENILE FACILITY FULL OF CHILDREN?! WTAF

 

[cesarea-tinajero]

The sports thing is why i went terf. when i was younger I was a decent athlete in one of the sports that had a lot of high profile trans stuff recently (cycling), and it made me look into it all. I only coach and ride for fun (and do a bit of cx for a laugh) these days, but don't want my athletes to have to deal with men on the track. Luckily, there have been a number of high profile female cyclists who are unafraid to be public about their views, but there are many more with terfy opinions who just keep quiet so as to not rock the boat with sponsors etc.

I also have a STEM PhD. I have found no reputable studies so far that show trans athletes have no advantage. Happy to read anything anyone supplies and critique or explain anything people need clarity on.

 

[Peachsquish]

FFS = female fetishisation surgery
---



So children as young as 12 are prosecuted as adults for killing an abuser or committing other (bad but not rapey) crimes…

BUT A 26 YEAR OLD GOES TO A JUBENILE FACILITY FULL OF CHILDREN?! WTAF

Its basically rewarding him to the point of condoning his actions and inspiring others to do the same. Utterly abhorrent, certainly anyone involved in the decision is highly suspect and needs their own investigation.

 

[NeverEnough]

Oof. It’s so hilarious to watch these people squirm second video in the thread too.

And THAT is the difference between an educated confident woman who has command of the issues, and a diversity hire…..

 

[smellyfootballboots]

Okay I am Googling away here and all I can find are studies after studies stating that trans women maintain their advantage after gender conforming hormone therapy just at a lower rate than cis men.

These studies are from 2017, 2020, 2021 and 2022 etc. No mention anywhere of this new 2023 study. It's just so odd, it's women who are sharing this and women's rights groups. I just find it so bizzare... if the study is valid just share it with us all and let it speak for itself, as it stands, all I can find is proof of the exact opposite.

Ultimately, while these studies are completely necessary (I hope they are paid for by the trans lobby, but doubtful) the basic fact is men should not participate in women's sports because they are men. There is no debate to be had. It ends there.

Men who choose not to identify with their sex, age, race are still men. They are a subset of men, but still men. Women don't need to give a reason why we won't accept them either because it is obvious - they are men.

Fond Of Women's Sport: Dr. Emma Hilton & The Science That Shows Why Biological Sex Not Gender Choice Says Who Swims As Man Or Woman - StateOfSwimming

Dr Emma Hilton at the Woman's Place UK Conference that included this on the impact that growing up as a boy and man has in sport

www.stateofswimming.com

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

So children as young as 12 are prosecuted as adults for killing an abuser or committing other (bad but not rapey) crimes…

BUT A 26 YEAR OLD GOES TO A JUBENILE FACILITY FULL OF CHILDREN?! WTAF

That does happen in some states. If an adult is tried for a crime they committed when they were under 18, the law has to be applied as it stood at the time of the crime - so an adult can be sent to a juvenile detention centre. But putting in an ADULT MAN with girls under 18 is wrong no matter how you look at it. If they have to follow those laws the least they could do is send him to a boys' facility (he "identified" as a boy when the crime took place, right?)

 

[ChastityDingle]

And THAT is the difference between an educated confident woman who has command of the issues, and a diversity hire…..

Both video clips are so good.

Well worth watching.