Gender Discussion #36

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SueDoyou

Autumncolors said:
Exactly! You are an accomplished human being and you don’t define yourself as only trans. These people are so mediocre and so self absorbed that it is the only original thing about them. They have accomplished nothing, are the same than everyone else and do nothing for the others.
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This sounds very much like the 'you can be gay, just don't rub it in our faces' mantra though which I think we all agree is very offensive.

I think the loudest crowd will always rise to the top and for that reason there is a sweeping generalisation that trans people are all abrasive and screaming about their trans-ness. It would be interesting to know the stats on how many trans people we don't hear of because they are just getting on with their lives.
 
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Scotch Mist

Scotch Mist

Jayceedove said:
I find it often happens if someone does not have 'chosen' pronouns as I never have - or asks people to call them A, B or C.

That merely calls attention to the fact you think you have to instruct them what to say and I do not think that ever comes over well. Especially not these days.

I have also often found that if you tend to let other people say what they choose there is far less friction.

No idea where imposing pronouns actually started but imo it achieves the exact opposite of what I think the people who dreamt it up expected it to do.

That is the difference between coercion and acceptance. You do not get the later by way of the former.
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Thank you yes I totally agree. It's the compelled speech that annoys me.

I was trying to explain to someone at work yesterday why I didn't want to put pronouns on my signature and why I wasn't interested in anyone else's pronouns. They seemed to think that this was important but couldn't give me a good reason why.

If I ever felt confused or unsure I would ask, but generally speaking it's not hard to tell a man from a woman.
 
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nothanksbabes

I work remotely in an industry where men's views are seen as more valuable than womens'. I also have an ambiguous name. Why on earth would I disadvantage myself by putting my pronouns in my email signature?
 
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Autumncolors

Autumncolors

nothanksbabes said:
I work remotely in an industry where men's views are seen as more valuable than womens'. I also have an ambiguous name. Why on earth would I disadvantage myself by putting my pronouns in my email signature?
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Don’t worry, you just have to identify as a man! 😓
 
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J

Jayceedove

SueDoyou said:
So you kind of wait for the person to ask, or just go with what they use initially? Would you say you have preferred or you really don't mind? Its great to hear the different takes on it. I'd say its less coercion and more giving the information beforehand to save awkwardness on behalf of both people in the situation. I feel like people think they are being imposed on them right now because social media etc have the option in their bio etc, but I think thats just a nice gesture, some would say virtue signalling, I would say making something just another everyday thing on your profile. I have it on things but I don't even think about it being there.
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I transitioned young and 50 years ago so sadly few people are alive who knew me before. My best friend from childhood still is and she and I speak every day. But pretty much everyone in my family or that I know or work with was born after my transition. So it is in that sense not even a thing I have really needed to consider.

I guess my brother's son who is nearly 50 would find it prettty hard to correctly gender me as he has called me aunty all his life. As have his kids. Or his sisters kids - one of whom is gay and specifically asked me to be a big part of her ceremony when she married her wife just before the pandemic. A day I will always treasure.

These things are the choice of other people. Not you. I would not presume to tell them to call me anything. So never have. I guess like everyone they just say what best works. And I am fine with that. Life kind of makes these choices not ideology most of the time.

If someone wanted to say what they felt mattered I imagine I would smile and maybe clarify. Indeed I think I have been called he or man a few times in here over the past year. Never counted how ,many. But it is truthfully not something I think about day to day as it simply has never been an issue for me. I only recall one incident from a shopkeeper decades ago where I smiled and left the shop and just went to a different store next time to avoid the situation recurring.

What would causing a scene have achieved?

The world works on perception and most people try to be nice if you are nice to them.

Psychiatrists made clear long ago to me that understanding reality and how to live with that balance was a prerequisite of going forward with treatment when there were NO laws to fall back on so you effectively were accepted or not on how people took you..

I think that should be true today as if you freak out over a word then imo the last thing you should be doing is live the rest of your life that way and have irreversible surgery to live in fear of a missed pronoun. Those wanting self ID and see this kind of thorough psychiatric therapy up front as a negative never ask themelves why it was done - calling it conversion therapy. No it was realism therapy.

Sometimes saying no if a person cannot hack the world is the right thing. You cannot force people to agree with you. So you need to understand that before you ruin your life via irreversible transtion.

Another reason I think older transitioners are much more realistic. We had that programme now deemed evil when its aim was to see if you could hack it in the real world without expecting the world to change everything just for you.

So many these days would not last five minutes in that era - not if a word destroys your whole core personality.

Hence why saying yes to someone is not actually always being kind.
 
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emm

Jayceedove said:
I transitioned young and 50 years ago so sadly few people are alive who knew me before. My best friend from childhood still is and she and I speak every day. But pretty much everyone in my family or that I know or work with was born after my transition. So it is in that sense not even a thing I have really needed to consider.

I guess my brother's son who is nearly 50 would find it prettty hard to correctly gender me as he has called me aunty all his life. As have his kids. Or his sisters kids - one of whom is gay and specifically asked me to be a big part of her ceremony when she married her wife just before the pandemic. A day I will always treasure.

These things are the choice of other people. Not you. I would not presume to tell them to call me anything. So never have. I guess like everyone they just say what best works. And I am fine with that. Life kind of makes these choices not ideology most of the time.

If someone wanted to say what they felt mattered I imagine I would smile and maybe clarify. Indeed I think I have been called he or man a few times in here over the past year. Never counted how ,many. But it is truthfully not something I think about day to day as it simply has never been an issue for me. I only recall one incident from a shopkeeper decades ago where I smiled and left the shop and just went to a different store next time to avoid the situation recurring.

What would causing a scene have achieved?

The world works on perception and most people try to be nice if you are nice to them.

Psychiatrists made clear long ago to me that understanding reality and how to live with that balance was a prerequisite of going forward with treatment when there were NO laws to fall back on so you effectively were accepted or not on how people took you..

I think that should be true today as if you freak out over a word then imo the last thing you should be doing is live the rest of your life that way and have irreversible surgery to live in fear of a missed pronoun. Those wanting self ID and see this kind of thorough psychiatric therapy up front as a negative never ask themelves why it was done - calling it conversion therapy. No it was realism therapy.

Sometimes saying no if a person cannot hack the world is the right thing. You cannot force people to agree with you. So you need to understand that before you ruin your life via irreversible transtion.

Another reason I think older transitioners are much more realistic. We had that programme now deemed evil when its aim was to see if you could hack it in the real world without expecting the world to change everything just for you.

So many these days would not last five minutes in that era - not if a word destroys your whole core personality.

Hence why saying yes to someone is not actually always being kind.
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]
Thank you so much for this detailed and well explained opinion. I am much younger than you so,tbh, don't personally know anyone trans (unless maybe I do) from your generation. But this is what I had always thought, just wanting to integrate not scream about being different . Not sure if you have addressed this before, but if you meet trans (in the sense of the young people who are trNs now) do you ever try to explain your experience to them? Or is it just futile?
 
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VC10

VC10

We shouldn't be enabling simpletons and deranged loons.
There are genuine transitioners who ache to live as the opposite sex , and who are being blocked or not getting professional assistance because of these people.
 
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S

SueDoyou

Jayceedove said:
I transitioned young and 50 years ago so sadly few people are alive who knew me before. My best friend from childhood still is and she and I speak every day. But pretty much everyone in my family or that I know or work with was born after my transition. So it is in that sense not even a thing I have really needed to consider.

I guess my brother's son who is nearly 50 would find it prettty hard to correctly gender me as he has called me aunty all his life. As have his kids. Or his sisters kids - one of whom is gay and specifically asked me to be a big part of her ceremony when she married her wife just before the pandemic. A day I will always treasure.

These things are the choice of other people. Not you. I would not presume to tell them to call me anything. So never have. I guess like everyone they just say what best works. And I am fine with that. Life kind of makes these choices not ideology most of the time.

If someone wanted to say what they felt mattered I imagine I would smile and maybe clarify. Indeed I think I have been called he or man a few times in here over the past year. Never counted how ,many. But it is truthfully not something I think about day to day as it simply has never been an issue for me. I only recall one incident from a shopkeeper decades ago where I smiled and left the shop and just went to a different store next time to avoid the situation recurring.

What would causing a scene have achieved?

The world works on perception and most people try to be nice if you are nice to them.

Psychiatrists made clear long ago to me that understanding reality and how to live with that balance was a prerequisite of going forward with treatment when there were NO laws to fall back on so you effectively were accepted or not on how people took you..

I think that should be true today as if you freak out over a word then imo the last thing you should be doing is live the rest of your life that way and have irreversible surgery to live in fear of a missed pronoun. Those wanting self ID and see this kind of thorough psychiatric therapy up front as a negative never ask themelves why it was done - calling it conversion therapy. No it was realism therapy.

Sometimes saying no if a person cannot hack the world is the right thing. You cannot force people to agree with you. So you need to understand that before you ruin your life via irreversible transtion.

Another reason I think older transitioners are much more realistic. We had that programme now deemed evil when its aim was to see if you could hack it in the real world without expecting the world to change everything just for you.

So many these days would not last five minutes in that era - not if a word destroys your whole core personality.

Hence why saying yes to someone is not actually always being kind.
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Thank you for being so open with us. Like the others said, have you met any young transgender people and had these conversations? I'm sure they could learn a lot from you. Its interesting, I'm sure older gay people must feel the same in some respects about not thinking younger members of their community couldn't go through what they went through back when. Se

How do you feel in the knowledge that a lot of people in this thread and the wider world don't want you sharing spaces with the gender that you transitioned to?
 
Wolfshead

Wolfshead

Autumncolors said:
Exactly! You are an accomplished human being and you don’t define yourself as only trans. These people are so mediocre and so self absorbed that it is the only original thing about them. They have accomplished nothing, are the same than everyone else and do nothing for the others.
Click to expand...
How many of them would be "trans" if there were no social media? I wonder.
 
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S

SueDoyou

Wolfshead said:
How many of them would be "trans" if there were no social media? I wonder.
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I always find this really interesting. Social medias influence on the world is something I think we will be digesting for years. I remember watching a clip of some republican in America as he analyses the fact that the amount of LGBT+ people are double every generation. From 0.8 in the people born in the 1940s to 20.8% of Gen Z. Focuses on it being an ideology. Is the simple answer not that thanks to social media and the internet the world is now a lot smaller than it was and thus, the people who would hide their sexuality or gender dysphoria in the past instead never identified that way because they didn't think they could? Its only seen as a trend because more people are identifying that way, but more people are identifying that way because its more of a visible thing to do now than it was at a certain time. the visibility brings naysayers and in the case of America, the robust right wing conservatives and then that brings the anger and fight back from the side of trans people. So more people are fighting to be seen on the trans side now because there are more people comfortable enough to transition and there are more people screaming at them for wanting to do it.

In the same way, how many people would spend so much of their time belittling trans people if there were no social media? I'm pretty sure my parents didn't cross a thought about it yet wonderful people like the fantastic poster above existed, the same with Nadia on Big Brother etc etc.
 
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Notworthy

SueDoyou said:
Thank you for being so open with us. Like the others said, have you met any young transgender people and had these conversations? I'm sure they could learn a lot from you. Its interesting, I'm sure older gay people must feel the same in some respects about not thinking younger members of their community couldn't go through what they went through back when. Se

How do you feel in the knowledge that a lot of people in this thread and the wider world don't want you sharing spaces with the gender that you transitioned to?
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You genuinely don't get it, do you. Very few current 'Trans' want to learn anything from people like @Jayceedove because they don't actually suffer from Dysphoria, they just want the ability to force their fetish onto the general public and women in particular with no consequences to themselves. The vast majority are what we would've termed creeps 20 years ago. It's disturbing how many people cannot see this.
 
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