Gender Discussion #36

[Jayceedove]

SueDoYou


I do not patrol what people with obviously reasonable concerns over this choose to say. Nor should you. We all make our own decisions here. We have a right to do.so Even if they differ from mine or yours.

There were rules even 50 years ago that we agreed to follow drawn up with and by the NHS and were created by mutual discussions over those years. These included no penises in women's changing rooms or toilets ever. No access with or without to any women's groups set up for things where they might be uncomfortable talking freely - such as groups for survivers of abuse from men. Why I gave up my job as a radiographer because one of the team objected to my treating women. Today I bet a trans activist would issue a lawsuit against the NHS over that call and be all over the papers crying at the hatred. Not just understand, accept and move on to something that let you do something useful without causing upset as I did.

I neither see confrontation as the right way to do things or a right - as if you intend to live AS a woman but do not care ABOUT the concerns of women you live alongside then you are probably in the wrong gender identity. Whatever the heck one of those is as I have no idea.

We accepted society was making genuine accommodations for us and we should respect that and offer things in return. It is what decent people do. Give and Take. Not take and sue.

I hate the way these positive things are now being made to seem as if they never happened because the trans community - whatever that is nowadays - are so extraordinarily self centred.

But then if so many of them are AGP men as I fear then it is no surprise.

 

[thegirlscout]

Have you noticed that all the Qatar coverage focuses on their treatment of LGBT’s (which is horrific), but nothing is said about women and how they are treated?

 

[Falkor]

This is an interesting thread - lesbian writer commissioned to write a piece on JK Rowling's transphobia, spent three months researching it and peaked herself. Writes for Huffington Post and Diva amongst others.

 

[AlanBanan]

Yeah… poor trans who lack self confidence and suffer from dysphoria…






Blatant homophobia.

I seen this in the replies

 

[DoraMaar]

Sorry I didn’t know you were a man. One more for the use of ‘cock’ count.

India did no favours for herself in there though, you could tell she was still not comfortable in herself and was fighting everyone who even breathed.

The question is not relevant to you then. To the wider group I was asking whether they would be uncomfortable if the poster being in the womens bathrooms. Nobody has answered it

Your discussion is basic – pronouns and toilets – college first year, experimenting with blue hair perhaps?

This is about the safety and dignity of women and girls, so that women are not endangered in their everyday lives and forced to self-exclude (e.g. Primark dressing rooms and women with orthodox religious beliefs)

It’s about female sports, it’s about medical care, it is about our right to equal representation.

We are not ‘other’ or ‘cis’ or a sub-set – we are women who won’t accommodate male fetishists. Gender is a state of mind and sex is immutable – a pantomime horse is not a horse, and a man dressed in women’s clothes is not a woman.

 

[House of Tea]

On the Feminism Board of the site that has maternal fishing gear in the title, there was a thread about men from other cultures and their attitudes to women and young girls. It had the potential to be an interesting subject, if you could put aside any racist postings that sometimes these threads invite. Basically a woman mentioned she was harassed by a guy (didn’t name the race but it appeared to be a Muslim guy) on a night out. And how some areas with a changing population which meant young men were being put in town centre accommodation, from misogynistic cultures plus a low regard for western women, was causing issues for females with regard to sexual harassment. People chipped in with their own experiences, including mothers of schoolgirls where police had to patrol to stop the men hanging around outside. Plus people from other countries also said it was an issue, with sexual offences on the increases, with a disproportionate amount from the same culture mentioned. Some areas were considered no go areas, or it was forcing people to look how they were dressed if they went out.

The thread wasn’t that long, and it was zapped when I returned. Even the short time I was reading there were people saying it was a racist thread, and that not all men. Plus people said that white British men were predators, which is true, but others were saying, in a measured way, there was an increasing problem but nobody was allowed to discuss it, because it wasn’t kind. That old be kind mantra. And that females safety was put at the bottom of the list and discussing the issue would not be allowed. Think Rotherham, some said. And they were right. It was deleted. There may have been offensive posts that got it zapped, but there was a post before saying you won’t be able to discuss it, it had been broughtup before. Also, peoples experiences were being downplayed or minimised. Or get a man to stand beside you.

In the Feminism Board there is another thread, which will probably be deleted, saying that it was a disgrace on a site aimed at females that you were not allowed to discuss something that was an issue for females, and had nothing been learned from Rotherham. They are asking where they can have a discussion. I am not a member of that site, but felt like joining to add the name of this site!

It’s a tricky area, because these type of threads can just bring forth racists, but a conversation needs to be had if this is going on. I am past it now, but every “serious” harassment I have every had was by men from other cultures. I was a small blonde and I think I was fair game to them. (Not saying blondes are harassed more, but perhaps it is the visible difference of my culture to theirs that signalled I was easy meat.) I have also been harassed in a low level way by white men too, but the serious occurrences have been perpetrated by men from different cultures.

Even on here I feel dodgy typing this, and my finger is hovering on post. But I am chilled too that the conversation cannot be had carefully without the conversation being accused of racist overtones. But if people are already avoiding areas, not going out and dressing in a way to detract attention, and we can’t even discuss it, how can it be addressed. Why is women’s safety always at the bottom of the list.

 

[Ekathrina]

You’re absolutely wrong about what the majority of us would be thinking about if we saw a transexual person in the street. The street is a public place, if I passed them going about their business it’s highly unlikely I’d notice them at all unless they were dressed outlandishly or in a way that was designed to draw attention to themselves. And if I did notice them I wouldn’t care anyway. I would object to them if they were dressed in a way that was obscene or revealed their genitals, or if they were behaving in a threatening manner but that would be the case for anyone, regardless of their sex.
I genuinely do not care about what they do in their everyday life. What I do care about is how gender ideology is a threat to womens rights and womens spaces and how it is being used to influence impressionable children and breakdown safeguarding standards. I care about the vast amount of public money that’s being spent on promoting this ideology to the detriment of many other things that are underfunded and strapped for cash (particularly within the health and social services and services for disabled people) and I care about the way this ideology is being used as a stick to beat women with if they dare to step out of line and question it.
A transexual walking down the street, minding their own business? Couldn’t give a fuck to be honest, just like I’m sure they couldn’t give a fuck about me.

 

[thinkofacoolname]

(By the time I finished writing this the thread had moved on, so this is from the previous thread)

LGB was a community that was formed because mainstream culture did not accept homosexuality. People created their fashions and clubs and places they could be themselves. By adding all the letters and all the made up letters especially Q - everyone can be part of it. It’s the ‘everyone is special so no one is’ conformity. It leads to social contagion where young people all want to join the cool club. And for actual LGB people - doesn’t it feel like everyone has joined your club and taken all the tables and left you without a place to sit?

bib: I personally think that the gender identity half of the alphabet should be it’s own movement. I quietly get on with life, no one knows I’m a lesbian unless my relationship status pops up in conversation and I don’t shout it from the rooftops. I’m very average! I find the majority of people within the gender movement make it their entire personality and it feels like you have to tiptoe around them so as not to offend over something.

The LGB community has fought over the years for their right to not be vilified for their sexuality, for it to be decriminalised, to not be fired for it, for the right to marriage, to just be able to live a boring, mediocre life. It’s thanks to those people that I don’t have to hide a part of me.

Now however, the gender identity movement has came along jumped on the back of it and made outrageous demands that we should suspend disbelief when they tell us men can become women and vice versa, that we’re bigots if we’re not interested in them, that they want access to spaces that wouldn’t ordinarily be open to them etc etc etc and are vicious and demanding when all those needs aren’t met. They’re taking the absolute piss out of hard won gains from those before them and thrown it back in their faces.

It used to be that the LGB community, although not perfect, was welcoming because it understood what it was to feel on the outside and I think that’s why the gender identity part latched on. Now it’s full of petulant bullies who threaten to cancel you if you don’t do what they say. I hate telling people I’m gay now, not because of any kind of shame, but in case they think I’m like one of the gender cultists.

 

[Eveningdusk]

Many people with similar ideas in the comments;

Let’s be honest. It doesn’t matter now who else competes in these types of things. The trans person will always win because everyone is too scared to let them lose in case they are cancelled or called transphobic. There is literally no point in any one else showing up Or doing anything. There never had a chance.
It’s not stunning and brave if you are nominated and win womens awards and accolades. It’s political for that organisation to save face and reputation. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they actively looked for trans people to compete to help boost their profile.

 

[Ilovemusic]

Eddie Izzard has landed the role of "Sherlock Holmes". How convenient that he slips into "boy mode" for prestigious and WELL PAID acting jobs that he would never be offered while in his "girl mode" phase. Tosser. Hypocrite.

 

[weeweegie]

I fully understand the fear, and actually this is such a great reply. I've been a victim of domestic violence, took a long number of years to work through it not knowing that it was there influencing a lot of things I was doing day to day and only really came through hitting my 30s thanks to CBT and EMDR. I've fortunately never been through sexual violence, I have friends who have, as we all do. So I understand that fear but I choose not to place what my ex partner did on me on people who are already struggling their own trauma in society. I'll place it on the abusers and the perverts sure, but not some innocent young person because there are bad people in the world.

But of course I understand that fear, I'm not here to say all trans people are saints. I'd say there is plenty of them who aren't. But I don't define good upstanding lovely members of society by the worst of society. Like I said above, it is the same when it comes to race I have some wonderful muslim friends. Probably the kindest people I know. I don't place assumptions on them because of some bad things some bad Islamic people have done. But thats the logic being applied here.

The hobby line was in line with the rhetoric of a lot of this thread, I also mentioned militant trans people in the same joke. I do find it interesting though that some pretty abhorrent things are said about trans people in this thread, a 16 year old was called a fuckwit three threads back. A vulnerable teenager basically. Yet the hobby line seemed to hit a nerve. I've had A LOT of patronising posts aimed at me in here from the very moment I stepped foot in the thread.

You are still missing the point though. I’m not sure how many ways there are to say the same thing. I’ll try one more time then I’m out.

To clarify, in real life I treat people as I find them. Trans people included. I’m nice to you if you’re nice to me. Actually even if you’re not nice to me I’ll probably still be nice to you because I’m female and have been conditioned to be ‘nice’. If you think for a second that what I’m saying is about treating all trans people like predators or all Muslims as terrorists then you are far, far off the mark.

Allowing men to identify as women (with self ID this can just literally be any man who utters the words ‘I’m a woman’ out loud) into spaces where women are vulnerable - getting changed for example - can you not see how this would bring the male predators out, rubbing their hands together that they have a free pass to areas they never would have before?

With your immigrant argument, what female spaces are immigrants trying to get access to? Do you honestly think that a teenage girl saying she doesn’t want a teenage boy undressing next to her (because he says he trans) at school is the same thing as saying ‘all refugees are terrorists so don’t let any of them in the country’.

Much like most posters in here (I would hope) I’m very much anti racist and have been trying to understand the complexities behind it. It’s something I’m very interested in. I can see why that would be an appealing argument to present but they are absolutely two different things.

I’ll say again incase it hasn’t been made crystal clear. I don’t hate all trans people. I don’t think all trans people are predators. But I don’t want to change in front of the nice ‘genuine’ ones or the creepy lying men who say they are trans - we have no way of knowing which is which anyway. That doesn’t mean I don’t want trans people to exist or that I would be horrible to a trans person just because they are trans. For me it’s a matter of respecting my boundaries as a woman. I don’t want a male bodied person - regardless of their gender expression or identity - in a space where I am vulnerable.

Also I’m not here to challenge every poster and I don’t agree with everything that gets posted either. I just move on. But I read your post tonight and it hit a nerve as it echos what I’ve read a lot of online. That no one’s cares about women’s safety, privacy or boundaries. And the ones that do are told to shut up and stop being such horrible TERFs. Hence why we’re all here moaning about it on tattle!

I can’t and won’t explain this all again. You either get it or you don’t.

 

[Scotch Mist]

 

[Scotch Mist]

Well that meeting in Hyde Park was quite good fun. The TRAs were a bit pathetic but noisy. KJK said that they were nowhere near as bad as the ones she encountered in America. She is going to press charges against the one who threw water over her because that's assault and it could have been something far worse than water that was thrown at her.

I met lots of interesting women there including woman from Norway who mentioned the asshole in the wheelchair. I also spoke to Maria McLoughlan and thanked her for her bravery, she looked quite touched.

 

[Ekathrina]

At this point I am not comfortable with anyone who is biologically male using any single sex space that is designed for the sole use of women. Is that enough of an answer?
This is unfortunate for people like the person you are trying to use as some kind of ‘gotcha’ but other individual’s continual boundary pushing and encroachment mean that a solid line has to be drawn in order to protect the rights of women and girls.

 

[nothanksbabes]

What empathy do the "trans rights" brigade have for women? None whatsoever.

Their solution to feeling unsafe around men isn't to empathise with women, it's to open up all female-only spaces to anyone, thus making women unsafe. Very empathetic of them.

And so we end up with places like Brighton, where there are single sex rape crisis spaces for men only and trans women/trans men only, but the womens' are open to anyone.

Anyone who can't see what's happening here in terms of women's rights isn't looking very hard.

 

[AlanBanan]

OMG! I’ve been permanently banned from Reddit because I said JKR is not a monster. Then I proceeded to get into an argument that trans women aren’t women and they are not in any danger of vitriol or hate crimes.

It really does prove me right that nearly every Reddit moderator is a TIM and will foam at the mouth whenever someone questions their existence.

 

[Jen667]

Mermaids now facing a full, official enquiry. No way they can possibly survive this. By bye you poisonous charlatans

 

[Jayceedove]

One thing baffles me about'trans' people today.

They claim they just want to be the person they always knew they were. But their entire existence is defined by arguing with the planet about who they were before.

If you have actual dysphoria the LAST thing you want to do is remember it - especially after escaping. You transition as a last resort to make it go away. How does constantly drawing attention to that pain by demanding acceptance volubly achieve this?

If you genuinely need to become a different person you surely make THAT your goal - not act as psychologically like you were before - but in a dress and high heels? And shouting angrily you are a woman in a way that proves anything but. Transition is about YOU the person. Not the clothes you want to wear. I find that very telling that these days it is so often about being seen as an image not finding your true self or being a new person. Maybe the internet has driven this narcissism.

How is constant focus on who you were not reviving dysphoria if they have it? The main reason I take breaks off here then post a couple of things and go back to my lfe is the past is painful to remember from the present where I am happy. What matters is who you are now.

This is the clearest sign that what is going on today is often a delusion. Because you need to embrace a delusion. If you have any kind of condition you have fought to leave behind then you move on from successful treatment or therapy and embrace normality. People who beat cancer do not spend all day on the internet insisting they be respected as they were victims of cancer. They embrace wisely their new chance at life.

All the transsexuals I know have lived their lives this way.I have met by chance at clinics a nurse, doctor, teacher, scientist, ballet dancer, professional singer and a priest - all happily post op for years. Most like me have never been part of any trans rights organisation as most transsexuals. We beat the condition - whatever caused it - then moved on and gained the normal life we sought. It was the point.

I do not know if this is mostly a generational thing, or caused by the toxicity of everyone being able to become famous via the internet if you have a 'thing' these days - but I fear it is harming the mental health of way too many people who now seem to transition to BE visibly trans. Not finally get the life they allegedly sought, embrace it and contribute to society. Unless it is soliciting others for money to get cosmetic surgery.

I have done a lot of things since I transitioned 50 years ago. That is how I define my life by what happened next. Not before.

I wanted to go forward not backward. So I talk about that life as for me it only really started when I conquered dysphoria, It is a mixed blessing talking here about these things, But what I see out there worries me deeply for where it will leave many people's mental health. So this rising tide of acivism has meant it is important to respond as lives are at risk out there I fear.

Most transsexuals I know find this constant public attention very hard to take after years of quietly embracing normality. The trans activists are a disaster not just for women but us too. Yet we are so few in number it is hard to influence political thoght that listens to where they get big votes.

If only the trans community out there embraced tomorrow and not yesterday and made their life mean sonething beyond the fact they are trans and did things that made others respect them as human beings not question their constantly imposed self identity through anger and demands.

Then we could maybe find a way out of this mess. It will not happen unless these people STOP being trans by whatever defnition that means to themselves and START to become responsible, respectful human beings with a life that does not revolve around that need to be validated.

Life is about what you do with it. Not about what you try to make other people insist you get called. If self identity is that important then you need the very medical support that by fighting for self ID you are tragically eliminating.

 

[moldwarp]

I'm currently in Hyde Park to watch Kellie Jay talking. A group of TRAs have already assaulted her by throwing water and they’re doing their best to stop women speaking
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Will report back later

It breaks my heart when I see women like the one holding that fascist sign. It’s so recent that women got the vote, got rights to reproductive autonomy, forced the medical establishment to accept that female bodies are very different to men’s ones and need different healthcare.

Then you get girls like this who are so keen to appease men that they will throw their own sex under a bus.

'All terfs are chuld abusers'. Talk about fucking mental.

And there was me thinking that amputating healthy breasts and injecting exogenous steroidal testosterone was child abuse. Silly old me.

 

[Autumncolors]

Exactly