Gender Discussion #33

[Ensay]

From twitter consultation on sex by deception

Deception as to Gender: proposed revision to CPS legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), Chapter 6 - Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

I'm so confused by this. Are they talking about cases where someone has sex with a person they believe to be a particular sex, then later find out they aren't? Because they would then feel deceived?

And are these proposed changes to make it basically impossible to say you were deceived?

Sorry I just don't get it! I'm probably being dense.

 

[HockyRorror]

I'm so confused by this. Are they talking about cases where someone has sex with a person they believe to be a particular sex, then later find out they aren't? Because they would then feel deceived?

And are these proposed changes to make it basically impossible to say you were deceived?

Sorry I just don't get it! I'm probably being dense.

You’re not being dense, you’ve understood it as I understand it (unless I’ve misunderstood too). It’s basically saying if a person has sex with someone they believe to be male or female, and they later or during the act find out they aren’t that sex, it is classed as sex by deception unless the deceptive person believes they are the opposite gender, which means no sex by deception crime was committed.

 

[VC10]

You’re not being dense, you’ve understood it as I understand it (unless I’ve misunderstood too). It’s basically saying if a person has sex with someone they believe to be male or female, and they later or during the act find out they aren’t that sex, it is classed as sex by deception unless the deceptive person believes they are the opposite gender, which means no sex by deception crime was committed.

Ludicrous, isn't it?
So no crime committed?

 

[HockyRorror]

Ludicrous, isn't it?
So no crime committed?

“but language evolves all the time, it’s not a big deal”

 

[nothanksbabes]

This is what happens when we legislate based on subjective and nebulous individual feelings ("gender identity") rather than objective reality (sex). Anything that flows from that cannot be defined.

We're already at the point in law where grape convictions are so low it's basically legal. Whatever men say, whether it be "I really believe I'm a woman" or "I really believe she was asking for it" is taken as fact, no matter how bleeping ludicrous.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

You’re not being dense, you’ve understood it as I understand it (unless I’ve misunderstood too). It’s basically saying if a person has sex with someone they believe to be male or female, and they later or during the act find out they aren’t that sex, it is classed as sex by deception unless the deceptive person believes they are the opposite gender, which means no sex by deception crime was committed.

Which is about as logical as a man raping a woman but then being found not guilty because he doesn't identify as a rapist and/or he identifies as a woman and so he cannot be a rapist.

 

[HockyRorror]

Which is about as logical as a man raping a woman but then being found not guilty because he doesn't identify as a rapist and/or he identifies as a woman and so he cannot be a rapist.

I don’t know why they still waste money with courts when everybody could just identify as innocent for anything.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

I don’t know why they still waste money with courts when everybody could just identify as innocent for anything.

That's where we're headed.

 

[holliebollie]

@CEB1980 Yes I totally see your point with pronouns, if we use ‘she’ for some males then why not all? I didn’t think about the effect on non conforming women so thank you. I guess I mean if I knew this person, I would feel okay to use ‘she’ while talking about them with others. I didn’t say ‘she’ in my post though as I know that getting a boob job and having jawline surgery does not make one female.

Recently with the two trans females I’ve come across, I used ‘they’ for each. I felt like I would be judged at work if I stuck with ‘she’ but couldn’t use ‘he’ because… well, see all threads. Has anyone stuck to sex based pronouns and been called out or questioned at work? I think sticking to ‘they’ is safest for me, sadly.

 

[The True Venus ♀]

this is why I do have an issue using “she” for any male.

the concept of “passing” is based on a male person meeting a standard of femininity after striving to achieve that standard. This is an active reinforcement of the idea that standards of femininity define how much of a woman someone is.

The whole trans ideology is literally just meeting sexist beauty standards made up by men.
On Reddit, I see so many TIM comparing themselves to women who aren’t traditionally “feminine” like for example, some diss women who are slightly more taller, who have shorter hair or have darker skin- they get compared to men the whole facial feminine surgery is a misogynistic take on it’s own.

 

[The True Venus ♀]

You’re not being dense, you’ve understood it as I understand it (unless I’ve misunderstood too). It’s basically saying if a person has sex with someone they believe to be male or female, and they later or during the act find out they aren’t that sex, it is classed as sex by deception unless the deceptive person believes they are the opposite gender, which means no sex by deception crime was committed.

grape by deception, 100% as the person didn’t consent to having sex with someone of the same sex. I see people debate this on Twitter.

 

[Glortard]

I'm so confused by this. Are they talking about cases where someone has sex with a person they believe to be a particular sex, then later find out they aren't? Because they would then feel deceived?

And are these proposed changes to make it basically impossible to say you were deceived?

Sorry I just don't get it! I'm probably being dense.

A history of low self-esteem and “blurred gender lines” added to a “very troubling picture”, said the judge. That was what the judge said so in this case if the proposed amendments had went through it may well have resulted in that person not being found guilty.

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...d-eight-years-prison-duping-friend-having-sex

 

[ElektraWintour]

This month my work well-being group want to promote womens health and it helpfully informs me the menopause doesn’t only affect women

 

[Ensay]

You’re not being dense, you’ve understood it as I understand it (unless I’ve misunderstood too). It’s basically saying if a person has sex with someone they believe to be male or female, and they later or during the act find out they aren’t that sex, it is classed as sex by deception unless the deceptive person believes they are the opposite gender, which means no sex by deception crime was committed.

Thanks. A bizarre and worrying amendment then!

This probably isn't very PC to say, but I think it's more likely to affect straight/bisexual women and gay/bisexual men, as I personally think trans men are usually more convincing.

That said, I had a trans man contact me on a dating app and I could tell something wasn't quite right. But they didn't volunteer any information. I get that some would say they'd only tell if you met in person but I'd still rather know before that, as I would choose not to meet a trans man. Not to sound cruel, but I wouldn't be interested.

 

[Vanelope]

@CEB1980 Yes I totally see your point with pronouns, if we use ‘she’ for some males then why not all? I didn’t think about the effect on non conforming women so thank you. I guess I mean if I knew this person, I would feel okay to use ‘she’ while talking about them with others. I didn’t say ‘she’ in my post though as I know that getting a boob job and having jawline surgery does not make one female.

Recently with the two trans females I’ve come across, I used ‘they’ for each. I felt like I would be judged at work if I stuck with ‘she’ but couldn’t use ‘he’ because… well, see all threads. Has anyone stuck to sex based pronouns and been called out or questioned at work? I think sticking to ‘they’ is safest for me, sadly.

They is not incorrect, but also not fictional - so a good compromise at work.

Thanks. A bizarre and worrying amendment then!

This probably isn't very PC to say, but I think it's more likely to affect straight/bisexual women and gay/bisexual men, as I personally think trans men are usually more convincing.

That said, I had a trans man contact me on a dating app and I could tell something wasn't quite right. But they didn't volunteer any information. I get that some would say they'd only tell if you met in person but I'd still rather know before that, as I would choose not to meet a trans man. Not to sound cruel, but I wouldn't be interested.

But trans men are men you genital fetishist!

Sorry - it’s just so bizarre that same sex attraction is being completely undermined and even giving people a way out of sex crimes.

 

[HockyRorror]

Thanks. A bizarre and worrying amendment then!

This probably isn't very PC to say, but I think it's more likely to affect straight/bisexual women and gay/bisexual men, as I personally think trans men are usually more convincing.

And lesbians.

But this is no surprise, it’s been said repeatedly that this TRA movement directly affects mostly women, children and gay people of both sexes.

It’s uprooting and causing problems for three groups to accommodate one group who express vocal hatred for all three.

 

[Ensay]

And lesbians.

But this is no surprise, it’s been said repeatedly that this TRA movement directly affects mostly women, children and gay people of both sexes.

It’s uprooting and causing problems for three groups to accommodate one group who express vocal hatred for all three.

I think lesbians are less likely to be affected, as they can surely clock pretty much any trans woman a mile off.

But yeah, everyone could potentially be affected.

 

[HockyRorror]

I think lesbians are less likely to be affected, as they can surely clock pretty much any trans woman a mile off.

And if a les thinks they are sleeping with a trans man?

 

[VC10]

And lesbians.

But this is no surprise, it’s been said repeatedly that this TRA movement directly affects mostly women, children and gay people of both sexes.

It’s uprooting and causing problems for three groups to accommodate one group who express vocal hatred for all three.

Yes ; you've knocked the nail right on the head!

 

[exhausted_mother]

Am I being dense? What rights don’t trans people have?