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I came across this forum when I was looking into the backstory of Jack Monroe. Then I found these threads, and decided to make an account, because I need somewhere I can talk about this.

I recently lost what I’d thought was a very good and close friendship over this issue, and I’m still rather reeling from it. I often doubt myself, and wonder whether I actually am a hateful narrow-minded bigot without knowing it.

Possibly like many people, for a long time I assumed that of course I supported trans rights, because I am generally a supportive and tolerant person. I was also pretty active on Twitter from it’s beginning, and most of the few friendships I had originated there.

There were a couple of things that started making me uneasy. A few years ago a woman I followed tweeted a link to a gently gender critical article, and I saw the message passed around other people I followed: ‘She’s a TERF. BLOCK HER!’. At the time I did think I disagreed with her, but I wasn’t going to condemn and block someone whose take on life I’d always enjoyed and appreciated simply because we disagreed, and I was uncomfortable with the idea that I somehow should.

Then every so often there would be waves of people I knew on Twitter all proclaiming ‘Trans women are women!’. I could never bring myself to participate, because there was always a stubborn, awkward little voice in my head asking ‘but are they? how so?’

So I went away and did what I had so often seen people who raised questions told to do. I tried to educate myself. I started to read a lot of trans content and testimony. Unfortunately, it had the opposite to the intended effect.

I’m not sure that there was any one thing that ‘peaked’ me.

Maybe it was the endless threads where a man questions if he is really trans because he gets sexually aroused when dressing in women’s clothes, and trans women rush in to assure him that it’s definitely not a fetish, that erections are just the way a body expresses happiness, and that anyway the majority of cis woman get sexually aroused when they look at themselves in a mirror, because female sexuality isn’t based on desire, it’s based on being found desirable.

Maybe it was the also endless threads where a man claims that he truly felt like a girl today because he burst into tears when he broke a nail/squealed out loud at a picture of a kitten/spent £300 on make up and shoes/admired himself in the mirror for hours.

Or maybe it was the again endless threads of selfies in skimpy clothes and provocative poses titled ‘I feel so cute/hot/sexy today!’. Because that’s a behaviour that overweight middle aged women are notorious for, right?

And mixed up in all this many clearly unhappy people who didn’t seem to be being well served by the ratchet effect of the argument where if you even vaguely wonder whether you might be trans you almost certainly are, because cis people never ever question their identity, do they? Now that it’s no longer a requirement to know you are trans from a child, and you don’t even need dysphoria to be trans, and anyway all sorts of vague misery and insecurity and confusion can be interpreted as manifestations of repressed dysphoria, people are encouraged to ask whether the hypothesis ‘I am trans’ makes sense of their life. Very often it seems to. *That’s* why you have never quite felt you fitted in, and have often felt depressed and anxious and lacking in certainty and confidence, unlike you imagine everyone else to feel. And now you have an explanation, a purpose, a path forwards with clear goals. Now you are no longer an ordinary human, often inadequate and frequently failing, you are someone bravely expressing your true self in a hostile world, you have clear, obvious enemies to rail against, and an automatic, immediate community who will cheer you on every step of the way. I mean - I can’t say I can’t see the appeal.

I’d better stop before this post becomes even more ridiculously long. It’s been rather a painful, lonely time. So here I am. Hello.
 
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Falkor

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Not gender identity based, but another reason unisex changing rooms are an issue - there's a really furious mum all over the local bits of my Facebook feed this morning because someone took a photo of her daughter naked when she went swimming with her mates a few weeks ago by sticking their phone under the divider of the cubicle she was in. The photo is now on the WhatsApps of a large number of the teenage lads in town (and the entire population here is only about 9,000 people, so every one of them will know this girl) and the police say they can do nothing, because the leisure centre only keeps its CCTV for a week, so they can't be sure who was in the changing rooms at the same time.

The girl is 10. There is one school here and now she has to walk into it knowing that a large percentage of the lads she walks past in the corridor have or have seen a picture of her naked. My heart breaks for her.
 
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Ekathrina

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It’s irrelevant whether they’ve had surgery or not. Womens prisons are not rehabs, safe spaces or retreats for men. The women in womens prisons are some of the most vulnerable in society and often they have a background of male violence, sex work, traumatic head injuries from assault and learning difficulties. The presence of men in those spaces can be disturbing and triggering. Women, and their needs and well-being need to come first.
 
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thinkofacoolname

Active member
I’m so happy to have stumbled across this thread. The state of things has really gotten me down. I’m a lesbian and honesty, I’m so fed up with people who were born male but now presenting as female telling me I’m an evil person for not being interested in them. The amount of arguments I’ve had on twitter for defending my sexuality drove me to despair. I’ve been told I’m wrong, that I’m excluding people, that I’m invalidating people, that it’s gender that I should be attracted to, that I’m a vagina fetishist… I deleted twitter a few years ago because the insanity was too much.

My friends daughter recently came out as trans (ftm) because they like to wear baggy clothes, have short hair, and are not I tested in stereotypical girls stuff. I’m gonna sound like an old fart here, but back in my day that was a tomboy. I was one. It’s kinda alarming now to think that if I was that age now with social media etc that I too would end up down that route.

Gender identity does nothing but reinforce the stereotypes or how a boy/girl man/woman should act and look like. I used to be blocked by TRAs on twitter for asking them a woman is. How do you identify as one? No one had an answer. I was sick of people who were born male telling me what a woman is and that I didn’t understand it!

A few years ago it was confined to twitter, but now it’s seeping out to everywhere.
 
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Rdogk24

Well-known member
Haven’t spoken on this thread for a long time, had to have a break because it got a bit intense. Been lurking for a few days and this mermaids business is all over my Twitter, people in outrage that ‘transphobes’ have ‘harassed’ them to the point of temporarily closing. I can’t believe how many people are just blindly agreeing. When did men in skirts become the MOST vulnerable in society? Owen Jones harping on about how people who don’t accept their childrens lgbt identity are CHILD ABUSERS. But getting your child castrated isn’t no? This is lunacy. I’m so fed up of it. As for charlieissocoollike coming out as trans, ridiculous. If you search his name into Twitter the most common theme is ‘WIN FOR THE TRANS COMMUNITY, she is so beautiful, I’m so proud of them’ (have to get both she they pronouns in of course as she isn’t special enough) as if he’s done anything other than grow his hair out and cut a fringe. What is so admirable about living as a privileged man your whole life and suddenly deciding you’re a ‘she/they’. Try living as a young woman travelling alone at night on public transport and tell me about brave. Try being a 14 year old girl harassed by perverts while you’re walking back from school and tell me about brave. FED UP
 
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HockyRorror

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Everyone I know who claims to be trans NB is clearly an attention seeker. I think the average person forgets that getting attention or victim status points is a serious plus to those with "issues".
Seriously. I mean, look at this, how offensive:



She is heterosexual, in a heterosexual marriage raising four children made from heterosexual sex with her husband. HOW is she facing discrimination and is in fear of being killed for being non binary? How would people even know unless she told them?
 
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I don’t understand why it’s ‘assigned female/male at birth’, the midwife doesn’t stand with blue and pink tags and say ‘hmmm, we’ve assigned too many boys, this one can be a girl’.

I’ve also yet to see anyone come up with a clear definition of what the genders are that don’t revolve around feelings. ‘It’s what a person feels like inside’. Bullshit. It’s gender stereotyping and old fashioned. How I experience my womanhood is different from my mum, different from my sister, different from my friends… all the ties us together is that we are biologically female. Our bodies may have similar functions but how we feel, how we dress, how we view things, is so different.
Chiming in here - my wife is a transsexual woman (so, biologically and genetically male). The way she's described her experience of gender dysphoria wasn't a case of "I feel like a woman" it was "living in a male body is deeply distressing" - medically transitioning alleviated a lot of that distress to the point that she can basically live her life without having to think about her biological sex. Pre-transition it was a constant, distressing, nagging sense of wrong-ness.

She transitioned basically at a time when they actually had checks and balances, and wouldn't give people access to medication and transition-related medical care if they were clearly just fetishists (or gender non-conforming teenagers who just needed therapy and to grow up). It was a harder, slower, more thought-out process and although at the time it was frustrating for her with the benefit of hindsight it's a nightmare that gender identity clinics have been ideologically taken over in the way they have. The gatekeeping used to be intense - and for a reason. To an extent they'd also not allow someone to transition if they were unlikely to pass, or if they acted like blokes (think Eddie Izzard) - not because it's about BS ideas of what the 'ideal woman' should look or act like but because that's a very good marker of whether someone's sincerely trying to transition and is a good candidate for a successful transition.

Think of the difference between April Ashley or Blaire White (for a more recent example) compared to, well, Izzard et al. Ten years ago every transsexual I know would have been sickened to be lumped in with him. Now he's a vanguard of the trans community.

The short story is, gender identity disorder used to be considered a diagnosis of exclusion - therapists would explore in detail as much about your psychiatric and personal history as possible to establish whether you might have literally anything else going on that would better explain your distress. Transition was a last resort.

For obvious reasons I have every sympathy in the world with HSTS people like my wife. Most people read her as female now, for the most part, and if they don't mostly they don't give a toss.

The worst part of this rise in gender ideology is the impact on women, in particular, and same-sex attracted people. But the harm it's done to actual transsexuals is also a right pain in the arse. To me it's basically a case of 'this is why we can't have nice things' - twelve years ago, I think most people here would genuinely not have cared much either way, and would probably have been sympathetic to transsexuals like my wife - if they thought about it at all. Now - for very justifiable reasons - the tide is turning back. Because fetishists and lunatics have taken over the asylum.
 
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Why do you care about the definition of a woman though?
Because unless the term ‘woman’ has a recognised meaning, the rights, services, and provisions established to protect biological women from discrimination, assault/abuse, sexual exploitation, financial inequality, etc, cannot be maintained.
 
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emmer_moans

VIP Member
I work in education. We have new students. One in particular has only been here for a week and has already ranted at staff about preferred name not being the default on the systems so has been misgendered… :oops: You’re here to learn, dear. Not to rant at staff doing their job. It’s not all about you. Sometimes you know a student is going to be a nightmare for the next 3 years. If you’re THAT worried about being deadnamed how about change name by deedpoll before registering so it’s official name on the system, rather than hoping unwitting staff will see a note buried deep in your record about your preferred name…

I keep seeing the phrase “main character energy” in social media. We have a pandemic of young people thinking they are the MAIN CHARACTER, they alone are unique, they alone deserve all validation, you must think the same, you must pander to their selfish demands, you must warp and bend existing functional systems and norms to allow them what THEY what, TO HELL with safeguarding of other peoples’ NEEDS. Any perceived mis-step deserves RANTING and aggression, apparently.

I’ve said it before but to me it boils down to mental illness, insecurity and social media fanning the flames. People copy others like sheep, we mimic. Then, AGPs, EGO-trippers and paedos spot an opportunity and jump into the trojan horse.

I really hope this bubble bursts and we can think critically again.

Criticism isn’t hate. Truth isn’t hate. Truth can hurt, but it isn’t false. Mother Nature herself is the first and biggest TERF.
 
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Just seen a "the US/UK act like they're better than Iran but ignore their own problems with misogyny and transmisogyny." Yes, telling a man he can't use a women's toilet is exactly like killing a woman for wearing her hijab "wrong", well done :rolleyes:
 
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In a recent discussion on Facebook, I made a very tame comment about what they called "family-friendly drag", essentially saying drag is adult entertainment and should remain as such.

The amount of anger and vitriol thrown at me for that was - shocking, to be honest. I'm not very active on social media, and although I have a good idea of how vicious TRAs and their handmaidens can be, I still found it deeply upsetting on a personal level how even mild statements such as the above generate such an inordinate backlash.

I doubled down, and replied that men wearing woman-face reading books to children provide no added value, and then backed out of the discussion muting my notifications.

I don't get why strippers, drag queen story time and "pole dancing for kids" are things now. I keep asking myself if I'm just a stuck up close-minded bigot, but for me there's just no reasonable point in adding any of this to children's activities.
 
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nothanksbabes

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KJK is a fucking queen and I might not agree with all her views but she is the ONLY one truly devoted to safeguarding women and children. She's brave, intelligent, articulate and dedicated to her cause. I have nothing but respect and adulation for her.
I agree. And it's not racist to point out that Pakistani Muslim men have committed serious abuse on an industrial scale in Northern English towns. And I don't think it's racist to point out that the expectation that women should behave a certain way/cover their hair is a tool of patriarchy, because it literally is just that. It's pussyfooting around these topics that led to scandals with grooming gangs allowed to rape and abuse young girls with impunity.

I'm as left wing as they come, I've no time for the right wing at all and I don't think the enemy of my enemy is my friend so I don't think feminists should be teaming up with the right as a means to an end - right wing men have no respect for us. But pointing out literal facts isn't right wing, no matter what unhinged TRAs want to screech at us.
 
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DoraMaar

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Sorry. Been out for the afternoon so just seeing your post now. I do understand the points you’re making and they are valid. I just feel that it’s also unfair to simply refuse to try to make any provision for trans people. After all the majority of trans women are not violent or rapists. They’re just people who genuinely feel they’re trapped in the wrong body.

Maybe the solution is to have Trans only spaces. But I’m not sure that would be acceptable to the more radical section of the trans rights movement. And I don’t agree with them either because there are genuine problems with total inclusivity in female spaces.

There needs to be a bit of compromise on both sides I think.
Trans activists don't want a 'third' space for themselves - being in women's spaces is what validates them.

Women are not second rate men and should not have to compromise or make any provision for trans women. I have no problem with trans men (women who identify as male) using female loos, changing rooms, etc - so men need to make provision for their own.

I agree not all TW are rapists - but all rapists are men - and TW are men. "Trapped in the wrong body" is a dysphoria which affects a tiny percentage of trans people - for the majority of TW it's a fetish.
 
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blahblahboring

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Hello @Amelia99 I just want to welcome you and encourage you to stay and keep asking questions and reading. I wish @Cassandra333 was still posting here, as she really gave me a lot to think about. I appreciate that you haven’t just screeched TERFS at us and left in a huff. Can I suggest that you read the JK Rowling article that started the outrage from TRAs. How they rabidly abused her and tried to call her transphobic etc. For me, I found her point of view entirely reasonable but when I saw the reaction of TRAs to it, it raised my eyebrows and made me question what they were really after. I guess you could say I’ve come from a very similar position to you to now becoming quite hard line about the issue. I am sure there are people with genuine dysphoria about their bodies and I 100% think those people need help and support (not surgery). I had a very dear friend with a significant eating disorder who BEGGED her parents for a gastric bypass. It would have killed her if they agreed to it. I don’t think we should treat mental illness with surgery. There are many issues at play within the trans movement. Why are so many young women trying to transition to men (can you blame them, in this pornified, sexist world?) why are so many middle aged men suddenly deciding they are women and needing to parade around in skimpy outfits (actual middle-aged women don’t do this!). I am offended by men demanding access to women’s spaces. I am offended by trans identified men demanding that lesbians sleep with them. I object to woman-face by men who have lived with male privilege their entire lives and have no idea what it means to be socialised as a woman, with all the risk that entails. Anyway, please keep asking questions. And being GC does not make you hateful, or a bigot or a horrible person. It just makes you an advocate for women’s rights.
 
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Ekathrina

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If they want to ‘challenge hetero-normative patriarchal thinking’ around parenting why don’t they have groundbreaking images of things like blokes bottle feeding, changing nappies, tidying up after their own kids, looking after them without calling it ‘babysitting’ or all manner of things that actual feminists have been promoting for decades.
 
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Hollie Day

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I don't know what the answer is either but women wanting/demanding their own safe spaces are not extremists.
 
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thinkofacoolname

Active member
I came across this forum when I was looking into the backstory of Jack Monroe. Then I found these threads, and decided to make an account, because I need somewhere I can talk about this.

I recently lost what I’d thought was a very good and close friendship over this issue, and I’m still rather reeling from it. I often doubt myself, and wonder whether I actually am a hateful narrow-minded bigot without knowing it.

Possibly like many people, for a long time I assumed that of course I supported trans rights, because I am generally a supportive and tolerant person. I was also pretty active on Twitter from it’s beginning, and most of the few friendships I had originated there.

There were a couple of things that started making me uneasy. A few years ago a woman I followed tweeted a link to a gently gender critical article, and I saw the message passed around other people I followed: ‘She’s a TERF. BLOCK HER!’. At the time I did think I disagreed with her, but I wasn’t going to condemn and block someone whose take on life I’d always enjoyed and appreciated simply because we disagreed, and I was uncomfortable with the idea that I somehow should.

Then every so often there would be waves of people I knew on Twitter all proclaiming ‘Trans women are women!’. I could never bring myself to participate, because there was always a stubborn, awkward little voice in my head asking ‘but are they? how so?’

So I went away and did what I had so often seen people who raised questions told to do. I tried to educate myself. I started to read a lot of trans content and testimony. Unfortunately, it had the opposite to the intended effect.

I’m not sure that there was any one thing that ‘peaked’ me.

Maybe it was the endless threads where a man questions if he is really trans because he gets sexually aroused when dressing in women’s clothes, and trans women rush in to assure him that it’s definitely not a fetish, that erections are just the way a body expresses happiness, and that anyway the majority of cis woman get sexually aroused when they look at themselves in a mirror, because female sexuality isn’t based on desire, it’s based on being found desirable.

Maybe it was the also endless threads where a man claims that he truly felt like a girl today because he burst into tears when he broke a nail/squealed out loud at a picture of a kitten/spent £300 on make up and shoes/admired himself in the mirror for hours.

Or maybe it was the again endless threads of selfies in skimpy clothes and provocative poses titled ‘I feel so cute/hot/sexy today!’. Because that’s a behaviour that overweight middle aged women are notorious for, right?

And mixed up in all this many clearly unhappy people who didn’t seem to be being well served by the ratchet effect of the argument where if you even vaguely wonder whether you might be trans you almost certainly are, because cis people never ever question their identity, do they? Now that it’s no longer a requirement to know you are trans from a child, and you don’t even need dysphoria to be trans, and anyway all sorts of vague misery and insecurity and confusion can be interpreted as manifestations of repressed dysphoria, people are encouraged to ask whether the hypothesis ‘I am trans’ makes sense of their life. Very often it seems to. *That’s* why you have never quite felt you fitted in, and have often felt depressed and anxious and lacking in certainty and confidence, unlike you imagine everyone else to feel. And now you have an explanation, a purpose, a path forwards with clear goals. Now you are no longer an ordinary human, often inadequate and frequently failing, you are someone bravely expressing your true self in a hostile world, you have clear, obvious enemies to rail against, and an automatic, immediate community who will cheer you on every step of the way. I mean - I can’t say I can’t see the appeal.

I’d better stop before this post becomes even more ridiculously long. It’s been rather a painful, lonely time. So here I am. Hello.
Hey! I’m new on these threads as well because, like you, it’s impossible to voice any opinion other than repeating the mantras of ‘trans women are women’ etc without being met with accusations of whatever phobia They think applies.

I’ve seen so many pictures of men dressed in skimpy clothing with crudely applied makeup and 5 o’clock shadow trying to look alluring?innocent?sexy? as if that’s just standard practice for women. They never seem to post pictures of themselves in jeans and a t-shirt (that actually fit properly), it’s always clothes and poses that wouldn’t look out of place on a porn site. The thing that boggles my mind when these pictures are posted as the amount of comments telling them they look cute!!

I was always onboard with the whole trans movement because I know what it’s like to be holding back a part of yourself back and feeling like you’re hiding some shameful secret, but all that change when it felt like them and other turned on me because as much as I would stand up for a trans person to live their lives as they wanted, I wasn’t attracted to trans women on the basis that they are bio men and that’s not what I’m attracted to.

I don’t understand why gender identity and sexuality are lumped in the same movement because really, they are at odds with one another. If you’re gay/lesbian you’re told that shou should be attracted to trans men/women because if you’re attracted to men/women that means all men/women. You’re told to put aside you’re preferences and unlearn them. As a lesbian I’ve been told that a female penis is just a huge clitoris, that a female penis smells different, that a female penis is nothing to be scared of. What I think or feel doesn’t seem to matter as long as the trans woman feels accepted. I’ve been told this by straight men as well, and how many of them do you think would go for a woman With a penis?

I just don’t understand when acknowledging bio sex became taboo. Why is it always women that are fighting for our rights to have our own spaces? I had a friend distance herself from me because she fully jumped on the bashing JK Rowling train and when I asked her if she actually read the essay and try to understand the point JK made she said no gave me a look up and down as if ‘how dare you defend her’. My friend doesn’t even know or understand what she’s mad about!

It’s as if they’re one hive mind and any deviation from that marks you out as the enemy. It’s unsettling to see.
 
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