Gender Discussion #27

[maytoseptember]

Or do you think that TIMs generally DON’T pass well and you can always tell? Or is it only a tiny % of ANY trans person who actually fully passes? Saying all this, I’ve seen an interview with BA and just sounds like a very feminine man?? Like the voice doesn’t match the body at all!

TIFs superficially do pass quite well and TIMs never do. The answer is testosterone. It’s one hell of a drug.

Basically no one questions the sex of a person with a full beard, even if they’re only five feet tall.

Although having said that, I can usually tell with some accuracy if a person is a TIF because they have feminine facial features, feminine body language and froggy voices. I’ve never heard Buck Angel speak but I’m not surprised that the voice doesn’t match the appearance. No amount of testosterone can counteract female mannerisms.

TIMs don’t pass for exactly the same reason: testosterone. Once a boy goes through puberty there’s no disguising that male physique and face.

 

[Milliemoo99]

TIFs superficially do pass quite well and TIMs never do. The answer is testosterone. It’s one hell of a drug.

Basically no one questions the sex of a person with a full beard, even if they’re only five feet tall.

Although having said that, I can usually tell with some accuracy if a person is a TIF because they have feminine facial features, feminine body language and froggy voices. I’ve never heard Buck Angel speak but I’m not surprised that the voice doesn’t match the appearance. No amount of testosterone can counteract female mannerisms.

TIMs don’t pass for exactly the same reason: testosterone. Once a boy goes through puberty there’s no disguising that male physique and face.

There is also the odd thing that with plastered on make up and the right angle, a lot of people can look feminine or masculine on social media or in a photo.
This is pretty different to how they look in real life, so although someone may think they pass well, I am not sure if this is always obvious as they walk down the street or head into the changing rooms!

I dont really care which toilets anyone uses....as long as they are polite and behave appropriately. But I do care about things like sport, basic biology and women losing their rights.

I was wondering if there was any way ....as a reaction to the fuss about pronouns......I can make a fuss about prefixes like Mr, Mrs, Miss and Ms?


I have always hated the whole prefix thing, and have tried hard all my life to just use my first name and surname, only to have forms and letters sent back because they need a prefix for some reason? Why? Why has it ever been fair that men get away with just Mr, Whilst women have to be Miss, Mrs or Ms. or even Mx? I assume that legally the prefix is totally irrelevant.?

So I am thinking, if I am every asked for my pronouns, I am going to deliberately make a fuss about my prefix. So instead of being say Sally Jones, I am going to write down, Mr S Jones... (Her, she )

 

[weeweegie]

TIFs superficially do pass quite well and TIMs never do. The answer is testosterone. It’s one hell of a drug.

Basically no one questions the sex of a person with a full beard, even if they’re only five feet tall.

Although having said that, I can usually tell with some accuracy if a person is a TIF because they have feminine facial features, feminine body language and froggy voices. I’ve never heard Buck Angel speak but I’m not surprised that the voice doesn’t match the appearance. No amount of testosterone can counteract female mannerisms.

TIMs don’t pass for exactly the same reason: testosterone. Once a boy goes through puberty there’s no disguising that male physique and face.

I was at a concert recently and the person in front of me I just knew was a TiF. Very short, has a beard and short hair but had styled their hair like a woman (sorry to stereotype but that’s what it was like). Just so obvious they weren’t male but they were trying hard to be. Made me feel sad for them that they felt they couldn’t just be a butch lesbian and have fallen in to the trap of ‘I don’t feel girly therefore I must be a man’.

We need to redefine what it is to be a man and woman. I wouldn’t have a problem with men wearing ‘women’s’ clothes, even as ridiculous as most of the look, if they said they were redefining what it is to be a man. That would be revolutionary. Instead of pretending to be a woman.

 

[rainbowtapirs]

Ideally I think there should be neutral facilities available, especially for TiF. I get that it could sound hypocritical to say that both TiM and TiF should use the mens if there’s no other option, but that’s what I think… TiM are capable of posing a genuine threat to women, though the same isn’t generally true for TiF to men. I don’t agree with men having their spaces violated either, but they’re far better physically equipped to deal with any potential threat than women are.

TiF on testosterone are far better at physically passing than TiM… I know a few with facial hair who do look physically male, though their voices and mannerisms don’t quite fit. I’ve met one TiM who passed extremely well in person, but it’s generally extremely obvious. The following are the things I generally recognise that make them stand out: posture, hand size, shoulder width, height, voice, facial proportions, fashion sense, walk or the way they approach and interact with me. Generally I think you can get a visceral sense without even being sure what the specific reason is.

 

[Vanelope]

I was confused - because a very TRA terf hating account retweeted a bodybuilder woman who was ‘redefining what it means to be a woman’ and not being a man because muscly.

Definitely answered a GC argument to me but I don’t think they understood it that way which makes me think they are very stupid.

 

[annagerda83]

If the solution to redefine men and women by falling into the trap of 'social construct' (women wear makeup, skirts, heels, soft spoken has to have womb, menstruate, and men have to be bulky, muscular, wear trousers, masculine style clothing) then I don't think we are actually going anywhere. From what I found the fight against social construct is strong in their community, but somehow the majority of trans always falls into the very social construct that they're against at.

By the end of the day social construct is what helps us to define ourselves first hand, it is not inherently wrong to live up to an already defined construct, because otherwise how can I know about someone when the first thing I can assess is how they present themselves in public?

 

[threeSMEGfridges]

Pleased to see the safety consultation for transport in my area (redacted for my privacy ) specifically mentions women and girls - not just “people” or “cervix havers”. Refreshing to know that our protected class (sex) is being specifically noted!

 

[sheleg]

THIS is what we’re supposed to welcome into our spaces? Our sports teams? Our rape crisis groups?

No bleeping thank you.

Absolute delusional bellend.

 

[VC10]

THIS is what we’re supposed to welcome into our spaces? Our sports teams? Our rape crisis groups?

No bleeping thank you.

Absolute delusional bellend.

Looks like Arthur Mullard in a frock out of the Grattan home catalogue

 

[HockyRorror]

Pleased to see the safety consultation for transport in my area (redacted for my privacy ) specifically mentions women and girls - not just “people” or “cervix havers”. Refreshing to know that our protected class (sex) is being specifically noted!

Hi, just in case you want to flag your own post, the text that you’ve blacked out can still be read when you click on the picture and it opens up fully.

 

[skronkywildcat]

THIS is what we’re supposed to welcome into our spaces? Our sports teams? Our rape crisis groups?

No bleeping thank you.

Absolute delusional bellend.

He looks exactly like one of the mafia guys (Vito) from The Sopranos (but in a crappy flammable dress).

 

[GladiatorReady]

Have you guys (oops, sorry, have you people) seen the US Navy's training video on pronouns?

NAVSpEAks - Pronouns

Conchy Vasquez and Jony Rozon, both engineers at the Naval Undersea Warfare Center, Division Newport discuss the importance of using correct pronouns as well as polite etiquette when you may not be sure of someone's pronouns. Official US Navy Video by John Vannucci

www.dvidshub.net

 

[sheleg]

He looks exactly like one of the mafia guys (Vito) from The Sopranos (but in a crappy flammable dress).

Ha!! He does!

 

[rainbowtapirs]

We discussed this man’s detransition recently, so thought this might be of interest. I really hope he succeeds - it’s horrific that it’s perfectly legal for an expert who is well aware of the consequences to inflict these procedures on vulnerable people without at least thoroughly exploring all other options first.

 

[maytoseptember]

We discussed this man’s detransition recently, so thought this might be of interest. I really hope he succeeds - it’s horrific that it’s perfectly legal for an expert who is well aware of the consequences to inflict these procedures on vulnerable people without at least thoroughly exploring all other options first.

Will be interesting to see how this goes. I guess ultimately it will hinge on whether an adult is able to choose cosmetic surgery, no matter how mutilating. But this was NHS funded so it changes the definition of “choose” slightly. Would be great to open up a debate around how bad the outcomes are for SRS in men. Also sounds like the surgeon (who was in their 70s at the time and has since died) has created more than one patient with quite serious urinary issues.

 

[Scotch Mist]

Only listened to about the first 20 minutes but already a good listen - they are talking about the income received from a lifetime of drugs is over a million (obviously this is the US)

Religious elements of this video aside which weren't to my taste, this is a vey informative. Here's a transman talking about the agenda with people being medicalised for the rest of their lives on synthetic hormones that will affect their long term health, not to mention the pain they will experience from surgeries.
He's right this cult is a promotion of plastic surgery and forcing people on to taking medication everyday.
Who is going to be paying for this in the future?
The majority of these people will then become infertile.
I guess it's one way of reducing ghe worlds population.

 

[thegirlscout]

There’s a Twitter storm happening within the GC movement and it’s a bit confusing but it looks so stupid. Monty has slimed into replies to try and be the nice guy.

 

[DoraMaar]

Irish Tattlers - Senator Regina Doherty gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament about the introduction of self-id in Ireland - one of the many daft statements was that there are 9 genders (changed to 7 later). She has made us a laughing stock - there is a link to the recording in the Twitter comments

ETA - but she has proved that the self-id legislation was ill-thought out, rushed through and there were no checks on subsequent outcomes - a lot of her replies amounted to 'we don't have that data'

 

[maytoseptember]

There’s a Twitter storm happening within the GC movement and it’s a bit confusing but it looks so stupid. Monty has slimed into replies to try and be the nice guy.

You mean all the arguing over Posie Parker/KJK being frozen out of the movement by scores of Twitter feminists?

I’ve found it quite interesting, because I definitely could see that KJK was a persona non grata and, as a result, didn’t follow her for a long time. But then I listened to a few podcasts she was on and thought everything she said was very reasonable and articulated so clearly.

So now I’m wondering whether it’s just that some feminists resent her background as a non-academic, stay at home wife and mother who doesn’t identify as a feminist. I know there have been accusations of racism, but that seems to simply be because she has been outspoken about Pakistani grooming gangs, and been happy to speak to right wingers.

I like and respect people on both sides and just wish everyone could pull together for the common goal.

 

[petitspois]

You mean all the arguing over Posie Parker/KJK being frozen out of the movement by scores of Twitter feminists?

I’ve found it quite interesting, because I definitely could see that KJK was a persona non grata and, as a result, didn’t follow her for a long time. But then I listened to a few podcasts she was on and thought everything she said was very reasonable and articulated so clearly.

So now I’m wondering whether it’s just that some feminists resent her background as a non-academic, stay at home wife and mother who doesn’t identify as a feminist. I know there have been accusations of racism, but that seems to simply be because she has been outspoken about Pakistani grooming gangs, and been happy to speak to right wingers.

I like and respect people on both sides and just wish everyone could pull together for the common goal.

I've been trying to work that out. I think it's that plus I've seen criticisms of her work with the right wing in the US.

Everyone comes at this from a different viewpoint. Kathleen Stock is very academic and middle class while Julie Bindel speaks for the poor women who bear the brunt of so much. There's space for everyone isn't there? as long as it gets people to accept men are not women and gets them out of our spaces then I'm all for it.