Gender Discussion #27

[holliebollie]

I’ve seen recently on her page (standing for women) that she posted a screenshot of Suzanne Moore saying she couldn’t get behind her as she was a racist PoS or something? Doesn’t seem like she is but must have been something about calling out grooming gangs. It’s kind of like TRAs making you say ‘her penis’ on a rape case, you aren’t allowed to say that the grooming gangs had anything to do with race/culture etc. My town had it happen to young white, disadvantaged girls and it was all run from Turkish takeaways. Sure, there are white scum bags here too but as far as I know, no grooming gangs have started from the local McDonald’s.

I follow Birdie Rose too and she always says she’s not a feminist and not GC as she doesn’t want to be labelled anything. I might get one of her ‘female to the bone’ badges… if we can’t have woman as a descriptor now, I’ll fight for female at least.

 

[maytoseptember]

I've been trying to work that out. I think it's that plus I've seen criticisms of her work with the right wing in the US.

Everyone comes at this from a different viewpoint. Kathleen Stock is very academic and middle class while Julie Bindel speaks for the poor women who bear the brunt of so much. There's space for everyone isn't there? as long as it gets people to accept men are not women and gets them out of our spaces then I'm all for it.

The way I understand it was that KJK was essentially told “you can’t sit with us” (by Women’s Place U.K.) and, I may be wrong, but I’m getting purity spiral vibes. She just didn’t fit their mould.

On one side we have women who have dedicated their entire careers (be it academia, journalism, activism) working for women, and then this SAHM upstart appears and even has the gall to distance herself from feminism (justifiably, in some ways: I’ve seen the feminist argument against being a mother, and heterosexuality ).

I saw her criticised yesterday for always having her hair and make up done FFS. I mean come on, surely we’ve got beyond the point of seeing conventional femininity as a tool of the patriarchy? I really think she is seen by some factions as being the wrong kind of woman for the GC movement.

I feel conflicted about these accusations of racism. Unfortunately, anyone who makes an issue of grooming gangs gets painted as far right/in bed with Yaxley-Lennon and his cronies. If KJK really is covert far right then I’ll be shocked. But my gut feeling is that a lot of people wanted to sideline her, so racism has been a convenient excuse.

 

[Scotch Mist]

The way I understand it was that KJK was essentially told “you can’t sit with us” (by Women’s Place U.K.) and, I may be wrong, but I’m getting purity spiral vibes. She just didn’t fit their mould.

On one side we have women who have dedicated their entire careers (be it academia, journalism, activism) working for women, and then this SAHM upstart appears and even has the gall to distance herself from feminism (justifiably, in some ways: I’ve seen the feminist argument against being a mother, and heterosexuality ).

I saw her criticised yesterday for always having her hair and make up done FFS. I mean come on, surely we’ve got beyond the point of seeing conventional femininity as a tool of the patriarchy? I really think she is seen by some factions as being the wrong kind of woman for the GC movement.

I feel conflicted about these accusations of racism. Unfortunately, anyone who makes an issue of grooming gangs gets painted as far right/in bed with Yaxley-Lennon and his cronies. If KJK really is covert far right then I’ll be shocked. But my gut feeling is that a lot of people wanted to sideline her, so racism has been a convenient excuse.

I've seen zero evidence that Kellie Jay is a racist this is a disgusting slur against her.
I went to one of her meetings and there were plenty of women of colour there who were also speaking.
It's just typical that people have to attack her by calling her a right winger when there's no evidence.

 

[maytoseptember]

It's just typical that people have to attack her by calling her a right winger when there's no evidence.

It’s so juvenile. When I was much younger I remember being “Ew, right wing! Ew, Tories!” That’s the problem with the left sometimes… the idea that one shouldn’t taint themselves by associating with anyone not on the left, and with any issues that concern right wingers.

I mean, surely liberal ideology has everything to do with grooming gangs not being brought to justice? And police mishandling of the ones that did go to court? This is where it gets you if you cannot address certain issues head-on.

I follow Birdie Rose too and she always says she’s not a feminist and not GC as she doesn’t want to be labelled anything. I might get one of her ‘female to the bone’ badges… if we can’t have woman as a descriptor now, I’ll fight for female at least.

I find this fascinating because I use GC and radfem fairly interchangeably. It really confuses me when I see people who say they identify as neither!

 

[FogOfWar]

I can understand not wanting to label yourself a feminist - that’s a general position which can have a lot of varied viewpoints and arguments under it that you might not agree with. But it seems strange not to label yourself a Gender Critical person (in the sense of not believing in Gender Ideology) if that is your position on that specific subject. Not a million miles away from the “ look at me, I’m special and unique, defying labels” that seems to drive a lot of TRA declarations.

 

[nothanksbabes]

KJK doesn't label herself a feminist because she doesn't want to align herself with the libfems who chant TWAW. Like many of us, she came to being GC from her time spent in those spaces and seeing the hypocrisy that abounds among self identified left wing feminists. She freely admits she doesn't do much (if any) feminist reading.

Ultimately she's bringing this stuff to light to an every day, non-academic audience, every word she says is pure sense. I am a feminist (radical feminism to one degree or another) and I've nothing but respect for a woman like KJK who I think is pretty bleeping fearless.

 

[rainbowtapirs]

I reserved judgement a bit re: KJK because I’d heard allegations of racism, homophobia and I’m not sure how I feel about her engaging in right wing media. As for the racism, I saw the screenshots Womans Place UK posted of the alleged racism today, and found the whole thing ludicrous. She didn’t label every Muslim sexist or anything, she just spoke about legitimate issues within Islam and the Middle East - it’s offensive to deny that there are issues as far as I’m concerned. Every culture seems to have their own specific brand of misogyny and they function and uphold those structures in different ways - we need to define the issues in order to deal with them. Overall I’m very grateful for KJK; she’s an excellent communicator, and her points are logical, concise and easy to engage with.

As for teaming up with right wingers, I’m a bit ambivalent. On the one hand it seems to make sense to team together for a common goal when your views are aligned on something, especially when there’s so much to lose and legal protections are at stake. On the other hand, I don’t believe for a second that the aim of right wingers is like my own (to protect women) and fear that helping them get any momentum could lead to worse consequences for women as they try to tighten the definition of a woman and our rights in a way that might erase actual women and will restrict our freedoms.

 

[DoraMaar]

Irish Tattlers - Senator Regina Doherty gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament about the introduction of self-id in Ireland - one of the many daft statements was that there are 9 genders (changed to 7 later). She has made us a laughing stock - there is a link to the recording in the Twitter comments

ETA - but she has proved that the self-id legislation was ill-thought out, rushed through and there were no checks on subsequent outcomes - a lot of her replies amounted to 'we don't have that data'

A little snapshot of the Senator's responses

 

[rainbowtapirs]

I was somewhat relieved by this today… though it’s terrifying that someone whose specialism is tv, theatre and film would get a say. No doubt she’ll be labelled unscientific by someone with absolutely no qualifications on Twitter though.

SNP's pro-self-ID argument 'demolished' by expert called in at last minute

The SNP and self-ID supporters have come under pressure to justify the Gender Recognition Reforms' stance on data collection after Professor Alice Sullivan warned it risked certain facts being "unknowable" or "unspeakable."

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk

 

[Cocobaby09]

The way I understand it was that KJK was essentially told “you can’t sit with us” (by Women’s Place U.K.) and, I may be wrong, but I’m getting purity spiral vibes. She just didn’t fit their mould.

On one side we have women who have dedicated their entire careers (be it academia, journalism, activism) working for women, and then this SAHM upstart appears and even has the gall to distance herself from feminism (justifiably, in some ways: I’ve seen the feminist argument against being a mother, and heterosexuality ).

I saw her criticised yesterday for always having her hair and make up done FFS. I mean come on, surely we’ve got beyond the point of seeing conventional femininity as a tool of the patriarchy? I really think she is seen by some factions as being the wrong kind of woman for the GC movement.

I feel conflicted about these accusations of racism. Unfortunately, anyone who makes an issue of grooming gangs gets painted as far right/in bed with Yaxley-Lennon and his cronies. If KJK really is covert far right then I’ll be shocked. But my gut feeling is that a lot of people wanted to sideline her, so racism has been a convenient excuse.

KJK was an avowed lefty/Labour party person prior to the gender woo woo taking over. She explains it all in her Triggernometry interview.

 

[emmer_moans]

I've seen zero evidence that Kellie Jay is a racist this is a disgusting slur against her.
I went to one of her meetings and there were plenty of women of colour there who were also speaking.
It's just typical that people have to attack her by calling her a right winger when there's no evidence.

I have a feeling even women are conditioned to be suspicious of firmly outspoken women. Men generally will discredit her anyway, and perhaps other women will be scared to be associated with her, because she is blunt and to the point. I take everyone with a pinch of salt, and I cannot deny she is taking a stand that so many of us are afraid to, so publicly. I hate it when we have infighting because that's used to discredit us.

 

[Scotch Mist]

I reserved judgement a bit re: KJK because I’d heard allegations of racism, homophobia and I’m not sure how I feel about her engaging in right wing media. As for the racism, I saw the screenshots Womans Place UK posted of the alleged racism today, and found the whole thing ludicrous. She didn’t label every Muslim sexist or anything, she just spoke about legitimate issues within Islam and the Middle East - it’s offensive to deny that there are issues as far as I’m concerned. Every culture seems to have their own specific brand of misogyny and they function and uphold those structures in different ways - we need to define the issues in order to deal with them. Overall I’m very grateful for KJK; she’s an excellent communicator, and her points are logical, concise and easy to engage with.

As for teaming up with right wingers, I’m a bit ambivalent. On the one hand it seems to make sense to team together for a common goal when your views are aligned on something, especially when there’s so much to lose and legal protections are at stake. On the other hand, I don’t believe for a second that the aim of right wingers is like my own (to protect women) and fear that helping them get any momentum could lead to worse consequences for women as they try to tighten the definition of a woman and our rights in a way that might erase actual women and will restrict our freedoms.

I've never heard Kellie Jay align herself with any political party. She is purely making a stand on women being 'adult human females' and will discuss with anyone who will listen. That means that she will talk to left or right leaning media who invite her to speak.

It's bleeping ridiculous when people bring in this left vs right crap into this whole debate. It's extremely toxic and not at all helpful.

 

[Cocobaby09]

I was somewhat relieved by this today… though it’s terrifying that someone whose specialism is tv, theatre and film would get a say. No doubt she’ll be labelled unscientific by someone with absolutely no qualifications on Twitter though.

SNP's pro-self-ID argument 'demolished' by expert called in at last minute

The SNP and self-ID supporters have come under pressure to justify the Gender Recognition Reforms' stance on data collection after Professor Alice Sullivan warned it risked certain facts being "unknowable" or "unspeakable."

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk

And Sturgeon will ignore this and push ahead anyway. She's no friend of women.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

I reserved judgement a bit re: KJK because I’d heard allegations of racism, homophobia and I’m not sure how I feel about her engaging in right wing media. As for the racism, I saw the screenshots Womans Place UK posted of the alleged racism today, and found the whole thing ludicrous. She didn’t label every Muslim sexist or anything, she just spoke about legitimate issues within Islam and the Middle East - it’s offensive to deny that there are issues as far as I’m concerned. Every culture seems to have their own specific brand of misogyny and they function and uphold those structures in different ways - we need to define the issues in order to deal with them. Overall I’m very grateful for KJK; she’s an excellent communicator, and her points are logical, concise and easy to engage with.

As for teaming up with right wingers, I’m a bit ambivalent. On the one hand it seems to make sense to team together for a common goal when your views are aligned on something, especially when there’s so much to lose and legal protections are at stake. On the other hand, I don’t believe for a second that the aim of right wingers is like my own (to protect women) and fear that helping them get any momentum could lead to worse consequences for women as they try to tighten the definition of a woman and our rights in a way that might erase actual women and will restrict our freedoms.

If the left-wing media won't cover this, what is anyone left to do? Bindel writes for Spiked and Spectator. Moore writes for the Telegraph. Joyce, Glinner, Phillimore and more have appeared on Doyle on GB News. I think it's unfair (and also hypocritical) for those women to blame KJK for going on the TV shows etc that will platform her.

Historically on the KJK vs WPUK, I think there was a belief earlier on (before I peaked) that if we were 'nice' and said things like 'of course we'll use pronouns, and of course we'll be understanding' that the media etc would listen, that they couldn't be slandered as transphobes. So they probably saw KJK coming out and being 'no, it's a bloke' and being very blunt and firm, they were probably very nervous about this maybe playing badly and putting the cause back.

But what we've seen in the intervening years is that it doesn't matter how 'nice' or nuanced etc you are, they'll go for you no matter what. JKR bent over backward in her letter to be considerate but they still went for her. I think KJK is absolutely right about the language and the pronouns. If you talk about transgirls being barred from womens football, people think that girls are being barred from football. Not some 17 year old boy. Newspaper headlines shoudln't read 'trans player barred from women's team', it should read 'male barred from women's team.' On her no-compromise position, I would say that you don't compromise with the thief come to rob your house. You don't say 'well you can have the TV.' Or I said to someone I know reccently on this 'an inch was given and a mile has been taken so now you don't get the inch.'

 

[maytoseptember]

The thing about aligning with right wing media... Julie Bindel writes for the Daily Mail regularly and no one gets upset about that. It's seen as getting gender ideology out into the mainstream. Is that acceptable because it's Julie and she's in with the right crowd, or because the DM is considered "mildly" right wing?

Can't deny that there seem to be some double standards going on, if it's OK when the likes of JB get platformed by right wing media compared with KJK.

(@Icing _on_ the_cake said the same thing as I was writing this post, but I'll post it anyway!)

 

[sheleg]

Feminism has to be the only civil rights movement whose followers are ashamed to say they’re members. You never see a black activist saying “I’m not anti-racist…” or a Muslim saying “I’m not against Islamophobia…”

Shows you how deep internalised misogyny runs.

 

[Scotch Mist]

And Sturgeon will ignore this and push ahead anyway. She's no friend of women.

That witch is no friend of anyone who doesn't support her horrible agenda. Certainly Scottish women should be trying to toss her into the North Sea.

Apparently NHS Scotland have included 'Eunuch' as an identity now
I didn’t realise that Scotland was full of Eunuchs
Has Sturgeon taken all their balls?

 

[thegirlscout]

You mean all the arguing over Posie Parker/KJK being frozen out of the movement by scores of Twitter feminists?

I’ve found it quite interesting, because I definitely could see that KJK was a persona non grata and, as a result, didn’t follow her for a long time. But then I listened to a few podcasts she was on and thought everything she said was very reasonable and articulated so clearly.

So now I’m wondering whether it’s just that some feminists resent her background as a non-academic, stay at home wife and mother who doesn’t identify as a feminist. I know there have been accusations of racism, but that seems to simply be because she has been outspoken about Pakistani grooming gangs, and been happy to speak to right wingers.

I like and respect people on both sides and just wish everyone could pull together for the common goal.

Yes this was it! I was very confused because some women were very angry at her and the situation. When I read the comments and that Women’s Place message calling her a racist I was concerned but the comments were like you said calling out grooming and issues from minority religions and cultures in the U.K. Then someone said Women’s Place platformed and AGP who I believe was Debbie Hayton? I confess I don’t know a lot about Debbie but from what I’ve read they seem like an old school transsexual who knows that they aren’t a woman biologically but wishes to live like one and not cause a fuss? Happy to be corrected but I haven’t read anything from them to suggest AGP.
This is the post from Ruth Serwotka that started off my confusion because I didn’t know there was such friction:

And this what the sort of replies she gave to people saying they were disappointed

She also called women cowards for not using their real name on Twitter - even though women being GC on social media could be doxxed.
Even Karen, who created the counting dead women project, seemed to be on her side?

Then here is Monty sliming in:

Like I said, I don’t know the background of every GC lady and everything they have said so I apologise if I’m missing something but surely this just seems really childish from both those for PP/KJK and those against? I agree with what PP/KJK has said and I think she’s very brave to stand up for women publicly but I don’t agree with her aligning herself with Tucker Carson and I think it’s sad that she doesn’t class herself as a feminist. But I’m not going to demean everything else positive she does because she does some things I disagree with?

 

[FogOfWar]

If you talk about transgirls being barred from womens football, people think that girls are being barred from football. Not some 17 year old boy. Newspaper headlines shoudln't read 'trans player barred from women's team', it should read 'male barred from women's team.'

Not in Germany anymore - https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...llers-in-germany-can-choose-men-or-women-team.

In a strange way, I'm almost glad that Germany have done this (because I have no stake in it). I feel very sorry for German women and hope they organise something to fight back against this, but if I were every other federation I'd be saying "look, we're not doing it for now, we're going to give it 5-8 years in Germany to see how it goes." Then, when the female participation drops as they get sick of playing against faster, taller, stronger individuals, when the inevitable sexual harrassment suits come in, when women and girls start coming off the pitch with terrible injuries, every other federation can then say "no thanks, look at Germany". All illusions will have gone away, and perhaps normality can be resumed.

 

[Scotch Mist]

Yes this was it! I was very confused because some women were very angry at her and the situation. When I read the comments and that Women’s Place message calling her a racist I was concerned but the comments were like you said calling out grooming and issues from minority religions and cultures in the U.K. Then someone said Women’s Place platformed and AGP who I believe was Debbie Hayton? I confess I don’t know a lot about Debbie but from what I’ve read they seem like an old school transsexual who knows that they aren’t a woman biologically but wishes to live like one and not cause a fuss? Happy to be corrected but I haven’t read anything from them to suggest AGP.
This is the post from Ruth Serwotka that started off my confusion because I didn’t know there was such friction:
View attachment 1364354
And this what the sort of replies she gave to people saying they were disappointed
View attachment 1364357
She also called women cowards for not using their real name on Twitter - even though women being GC on social media could be doxxed.
Even Karen, who created the counting dead women project, seemed to be on her side?
View attachment 1364358
Then here is Monty sliming in:
View attachment 1364363View attachment 1364364
Like I said, I don’t know the background of every GC lady and everything they have said so I apologise if I’m missing something but surely this just seems really childish from both those for PP/KJK and those against? I agree with what PP/KJK has said and I think she’s very brave to stand up for women publicly but I don’t agree with her aligning herself with Tucker Carson and I think it’s sad that she doesn’t class herself as a feminist. But I’m not going to demean everything else positive she does because she does some things I disagree with?

I don't think that Kellie Jay is 'aligning' herself with Tucker Carlson at all. She went on his show because she was invited to speak. As she would probably go on any show with an audience that would listen.
That Ruth person should piss off.