Gender Discussion #22

[Luisa18]

Someone I'm working with at the moment recently 'came out' as non binary. He is a white male, has a male name, wears male clothes, has normal male hair and a beard. The only thing different since he's become 'non binary' is to constantly witter on about using they/them pronouns and to put them in his display name on vidoeconferencing platforms. Please, I'm begging you, get a real hobby

Do you remember when male hobbies (mid life crisis more like) were all about the cycling and Lycra? I miss those days.

My work place is a woke Mecca in a woke area and are massively pushing EDI at the moment. They actively said that they’re trying to move away from the middle class white person as part of their recruitment.

What is wrong with being white and middle class now? Why is it so shameful? The irony is that although I present as middle class, I am anything but and have several protected characteristics that aren’t immediately obvious.

EDI Isn’t just about the exterior of the person (and I completely agree with the principle of it, let me just say that, this is not a dig at EDI) but Jesus, they’re missing the point massively.

I hope this doesn’t offend? I can’t quite word it how I want to..:

 

[nothanksbabes]

This, 100%. My ex's tactic was I'll kill your family if you leave, next boyfriend tried if you dump me I'll kill myself, I dumped him so fast and just in case he was serious phoned his family and told them he needed help.

Well done for getting out

Thanks. And you .

 

[Guccigal]

Do you remember when male hobbies (mid life crisis more like) were all about the cycling and Lycra? I miss those days.

My work place is a woke Mecca in a woke area and are massively pushing EDI at the moment. They actively said that they’re trying to move away from the middle class white person as part of their recruitment.

What is wrong with being white and middle class now? Why is it so shameful? The irony is that although I present as middle class, I am anything but and have several protected characteristics that aren’t immediately obvious.

EDI Isn’t just about the exterior of the person (and I completely agree with the principle of it, let me just say that, this is not a dig at EDI) but Jesus, they’re missing the point massively.

I hope this doesn’t offend? I can’t quite word it how I want to..:

I’m a working class poc working in media and my office is full of white middle class people who can be very unknowingly problematic via their micro aggressions and lack of wider life experience which causes ignorance - so I have no problem with companies actually putting in the effort to diversify their offices.

There’s nothing wrong with being white and middle class, but as you’ve shown you can’t seem to see past the end of your nose and understand the wider issue that affects people that don’t have the privilege to “hide” certain characteristics and therefore miss out on opportunities or are treated differently

 

[Beverley Macker]

I’m a working class poc working in media and my office is full of Ivy League middle class people who can be very unknowingly problematic via their micro aggressions and lack of wider life experience which causes ignorance - so I have no problem with companies actually putting in the effort to diversify their offices. There’s nothing wrong with being white and middle class, but as you’ve shown you can’t seem to see past the end of your nose and understand the wider issue that affects people that don’t have the privilege to “hide” certain characteristics and therefore miss out on opportunities or are treated differently

Are you in America?

 

[Slothgang]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...Rowling-trans-tweet-three-men-complained.html

Sorry if this has already been shared. Never thought I would see the day that I agreed with a tory! I like how she pointed out that all the people who reported her tweet were men and that the panel that reprimanded her was also made up of men.

 

[Scotch Mist]

Do you remember when male hobbies (mid life crisis more like) were all about the cycling and Lycra? I miss those days.

My work place is a woke Mecca in a woke area and are massively pushing EDI at the moment. They actively said that they’re trying to move away from the middle class white person as part of their recruitment.

What is wrong with being white and middle class now? Why is it so shameful? The irony is that although I present as middle class, I am anything but and have several protected characteristics that aren’t immediately obvious.

EDI Isn’t just about the exterior of the person (and I completely agree with the principle of it, let me just say that, this is not a dig at EDI) but Jesus, they’re missing the point massively.

I hope this doesn’t offend? I can’t quite word it how I want to..:

The place where I work (which is very diverse and also a woke mecca) actually has an active program for women of colour to help them get promoted. The only person who dared to ask questions about it was a black man (but that was because he wasn't included ).

Noboby else dared to challenge this discrimination despite the fact that there are plenty of white people in low grade jobs with no hope of promotion.

The white working class are the most discriminated against in society now. They are dismissed by all political parties as irrelevant and noboby cares about their views. All political parties these days are only concerned with the handwringing of the liberal elite and loudly squawking minority groups like the TRAs.

 

[nothanksbabes]

My work is also big on EDI. In one of the many focus groups someone asked about working class people, and they were quickly dismissed with, "Oh, [CEO] went to state school" and that was that. Meanwhile the one trans woman is treated like the second coming of christ.

 

[skronkywildcat]

Black people and people of other minority ethnic backgrounds suffer a specific kind of prejudice in the workplace - most of the time it is not overt - but when the panel who decide who gets the job is made up only of white people they are more likely to pick a white person. A bit of positive discrimination - as long as the candidate is of a similar standard as the top white candidate - is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Glortard]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...Rowling-trans-tweet-three-men-complained.html

Sorry if this has already been shared. Never thought I would see the day that I agreed with a tory! I like how she pointed out that all the people who reported her tweet were men and that the panel that reprimanded her was also made up of men.

and one of the panel was a gay man who seem to side with TIMs more than with woman

 

[colouredlines]

Here is some data on race and poverty in the UK, for anyone who genuinely believes that white people are at a major disadvantage in a country that is almost 90% white: https://irr.org.uk/research/statistics/poverty/

Yes, there are a lot of problems with the current prevalent discourse on race, but let's not get carried away.

 

[Glortard]

Here is some data on race and poverty in the UK, for anyone who genuinely believes that white people are at a major disadvantage in a country that is almost 90% white: https://irr.org.uk/research/statistics/poverty/

Yes, there are a lot of problems with the current prevalent discourse on race, but let's not get carried away.

that only tells part of the picture as you would expect any recent migrant groups to be at the bottom when it comes to income.

 

[Scotch Mist]

Black people and people of other minority ethnic backgrounds suffer a specific kind of prejudice in the workplace - most of the time it is not overt - but when the panel who decide who gets the job is made up only of white people they are more likely to pick a white person. A bit of positive discrimination - as long as the candidate is of a similar standard as the top white candidate - is a good thing in my opinion.

I think this may be true in the private sector but not in the public sector.

I just wish we could move forwards so that positive discrimination is no longer necessary. People should always be promoted due to their suitability for the job not to meet quotas or because the boss thinks they'll 'fit in with the team' (which is generally code for their demographic is the same as others on the team).

I mainly agree with this article where the author points out that:
'Regressive-progressives’ philosophies and methods are so illogical and objectionable that a thought occurred to me: perhaps ‘woke’ is actually a double bluff by some shadowy cabal of conservative string-pullers, playing a long and subtle game.'

The woke are their own worst enemies

The absurdity of woke posturing is repelling decent-minded people from progessive causes.

www.spiked-online.com

 

[nothanksbabes]

Here is some data on race and poverty in the UK, for anyone who genuinely believes that white people are at a major disadvantage in a country that is almost 90% white: https://irr.org.uk/research/statistics/poverty/

Yes, there are a lot of problems with the current prevalent discourse on race, but let's not get carried away.

Absolutely.

I'd be interested to see this broken down my social class too, I'd hazard there isn't actually very much social mobility among any race in the UK, although it's easier for those of us with white skin to "assimilate" into "upwardly mobile" jobs when the people hiring at least look a bit like us.

We need solidarity between working class people of all races. I do think the "woke" brigade overlook class though when considering how marginalised people are, and seem to lump all white people as middle class. That's because their ideology lacks any nuance or logic though.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I think for a lot of these people what's 'wrong' with being white and middle class is that, rightly, there is now a much greater awareness of the privilege you obtain from the combination of those two particular characteristics, and that means oftentimes those voices now don't carry as much weight in conversations on things like gender and class. Don't forget that a lot of these liberal 'progressive' types are people who have never wanted for anything or been told no - these days, we are much better at identifying that these kinds of people might be out of touch if they've always lived such a life, and we want to hear from other people with more relevant life experiences instead. Most of us think that's a good thing, but for those who don't get to dominate these conversations anymore, obviously it isn't. So, simply call yourself something where you have to do absolutely nothing to evidence it - non-binary, to an extent bisexual* as well now - ta dah! Now you're ~ different, now you're ~ queer and a ~ marginalised group and suddenly your voice has weight again. Tbh I think it is extremely transparent and I'm surprised so many people are taken in by it. I would love to see a demographic breakdown of those who say they're trans without seeking to medically transition, non-binary, etc etc. I think it would be veryyyyy telling.

*NB not saying here that bisexuals don't exist, or that all bisexuals do this - rather it is clearly disadvantageous for genuine bisexuals that there are people who will use that sexuality to become different - all I mean is that nobody will say for example 'you're not bisexual because you haven't had a relationship with both a man and a woman' so, if you were so inclined, you could 'come out' as bisexual and be taken at face value in order to become 'special and different'. People like Jameela Jamil who are married/in long term relationships with men, but bangs on about being 'queer' and forces herself to the front of conversations off the back of that. Obviously, this damages how people perceive actual bisexuals, but these types don't care about that.

 

[FrannyGallops]

Is Katy Montgomerie a trans woman? What were they called before, they said they were in Kerrang! and Metal Hammer?

Yes, Monty’s a man. There’s a photo of him floating around Twitter pre transition at the moment. They’ve had a LOT of surgery. One of the whiniest, most vocal TRA’s on Twitter, but who regularly moans that they don’t have ‘a voice’ and should always be included in debates about the loss of women’s rights

 

[Scotch Mist]

I used to work in an industry that was very white and upper middle class. The only people from diverse backgrounds you ever met in the industry were privately educated with degrees from top universities (so they fitted right in).
I used to feel 'looked down on' for not having the same sort of educational background and attending a state school.

Nobody from a real working class background had any chance of getting a foot in the door at that time, so it's good that this sort of eliteism is being challenged.

The problem now is that some organisations are daily lecturing their staff over EDI and the way that it's being done is turning off potential allies. It's because nobody likes being lectured or labelled as an oppressor when they just go to work to get a wage so they can keep their head above water.

I do agree that the current trans trend with mainly white middle class people wanting to be a bit different is a kick back from this because it's so much better if you can find a way to say that you're a victim too and thus present yourself as an ally of the oppressed rather than being told you are an oppressor.

 

[thegirlscout]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is EDI?

 

[Falkor]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is EDI?

Equality, diversity and inclusion.

 

[katyazamo]

Do you remember when male hobbies (mid life crisis more like) were all about the cycling and Lycra? I miss those days.

My work place is a woke Mecca in a woke area and are massively pushing EDI at the moment. They actively said that they’re trying to move away from the middle class white person as part of their recruitment.

What is wrong with being white and middle class now? Why is it so shameful? The irony is that although I present as middle class, I am anything but and have several protected characteristics that aren’t immediately obvious.

EDI Isn’t just about the exterior of the person (and I completely agree with the principle of it, let me just say that, this is not a dig at EDI) but Jesus, they’re missing the point massively.

I hope this doesn’t offend? I can’t quite word it how I want to..:

No I totally get what you're saying. There is certainly a lot of hand-wringing in my industry about it too, despite everyone in my workplace being educated to degree level which in theory carries a certain level of privilege. I see my board of directors, all white men who have come from very comfortable backgrounds, pass the buck down to the HR team which is predominantly women and tell them that we "need diversity" and then wash their hands of it.

The problem now is that some organisations are daily lecturing their staff over EDI and the way that it's being done is turning off potential allies. It's because nobody likes being lectured or labelled as an oppressor when they just go to work to get a wage so they can keep their head above water.

Yup. I turn up to work, do my job, not really in a position to change anything as I'm not senior enough to make those decisions... and in the last few years people turn around and say "hey you, white cis woman, you're the problem" - I'm just being honest, it's jarring.

 

[Jayceedove]

This self ID Gender Recognition Act bill is not making the lives of transsexuals any safer or easier - indeed the opposite. I have never known a act believed so widely to be wanted that is only wanted by everyone NOT actually covered by the act. Normally that would be seen as a reason to at least ask why.

It is much hated by many transsexuals - much as it is by many women understandably. We are both being betrayed - I assume - so as to chase the votes by politicians who dress that up as support for a minority community. A minority 10 or 100 times llarger than the one the current act actually covers. A truth they all seem blind to as they are all presuming this is one community when it is not. Any glance on Twitter would show them how much Transsexuals are hated by those supporting this bill almost as much as many comcerned women.

That new 'minority' - transgender - whatever that is these days - is growing daily and is now multiple times bigger than the transsexual numbers for which the GRA was written nearly 20 years ago. Nobody seems to notice that the GRA was written for what doctors told them are about 5000 such people in the UK to help them integrate quietly - it is in black and white in Hansard at the time - and indeed almost exactly that many did get a GRC and not many more have one now.

Would you not think some politicians could count and therefore actually wonder where the other 50,000? - 500,000? - whatever it is - have come from in 18 years?

Regardless, utterly changing the act to let transgender in is misleading on a grand scale and betrays both women and transsexuals - but they ignore both of these groups as misguided because....? Presumably they think trans is all one thing. When it is increasingly apparent it is not.

I have no idea what they are thinking but it is not because they believe the GRA is too hard to access for those it was created to help - who all understood the need for checks and balances and a compromise within to demonstrate sincerity in order to be granted rights by society. That always was a fudge that recognised how transsexuals were just seeking to live quietly not in your face screamers like transgender appear to be. We were respectfdyul of boundaroes as our part of that concord. Transgender - as is easy to see - want no conpromises or boundaries.

So they are - in effect - totally changing the act to the detriment of both women and the transsexuals it was created for - to benefit who exactly? This mysterious group called transgender in an ewver expanding umbrella that soon will be wider than the equator.

No transsexuals with a GRC that I know - me included - has one of these mysterious gender identities that is so nebulous doctors cannot find it - or I assume that is the reason they insist that seeing one is for them - as Nicola Sturgeon laughably (but seeingly in belef of it) was inhumane and traumatising.

As a radically different act it is disliked by the two groups who are most impacted by these changes - both seeming to be less than happy with the betrayal of its fundamental quality. That quality was trust - built by the checks and balances in the current act and the fallback of an independent assessment by doctors that brings confidence if someone applying seeks to deceive either themselves or others that this at least has a chance of being spotted, Self delusion fools itself so cannot be spotted if self ID is the only protection.

Are there no politicians who can see they are taking away these necessary protections for both women and transsexuals in order to do what exactly?