Gender Discussion #20

[emmer_moans]

Yeh that’s the problem, who to trust. It’s not really an HR issue. She said she might speak to her manager as she is sure he isn’t keen either but i don’t think the ceo etc will care as there is a lot of money being spent in this area now so it’s lucrative, and money talks

It's certainly the new lucrative quick fix tick box to be seen as meeting criteria. This "gender training" is coming everywhere these days.

Someone shared on here a document from Sex Matters about pronouns at work. I'm sure if you Google it you will find it.

I have it saved in case I ever get asked, which I think will happen soon as I'm public sector.

Same. It's bookmarked somewhere on my tablet, ready to us should the need arise. Only a matter of time.

Me too. My team leader is fiercely GC so I'm not overly concerned.

I'm actually jealous of you having a GC Team Leader. Both mine are increasingly more "keeping up the appearance of woke". They haven't asked us to put pronouns individually but mass memo from "above" went out a few months ago with a template which from my casual observation about 50% of workforce put in their sigs overnight. We are all due a performance review soon and no doubt we will be nudged again about inclusivity.

 

[HoGi]

Me too. My team leader is fiercely GC so I'm not overly concerned.

I am a team leader so will happily defend anyone on my team who doesn't want to. But in my team I have one super leftie, one who's housemate is trans, two who are "I'm too old for this funny business" and then two who barely read corporate emails so would never see the instruction in the first place

I don't really know where my boss sits. She is totally conditioned to the public sector mindset, so I don't know. But I will never put my pronouns in my signature. I will go to HR with my sex matters document.

 

[Vanelope]

Some advice needed ladies- my friend’s job is providing training to other work places, eg health and safety or whatever else they need.

they have just been asked to attend a course to provide training on gender identity at work, now she is really uncomfortable with this and doesn’t agree with it at all and doesn’t want to contribute to this nonsense but she can’t pick and choose what she provides training for. ( leaving the job is not an option)

Any advice on how she can handle it without being labelled a terf

If she has to do it for her job, go on the course and see what they say. For most workplaces gender identity should not be a consideration, like sex, except when there are practical issues like bathrooms. Ask the provider of the course how to deal with employees in training that might be traditional, unhappy with the idea, from a religion that has stricter gender roles and how to reconcile their protected characteristics with this if there is conflict? I think we’d all be interested to see what the answer was.

 

[maytoseptember]

Since we’re on the topic, this article I read yesterday is very apt and a good read

Stonewall rules in unlikely places | Caroline Ffiske | The Critic Magazine

Who even knew we had a Coal Authority? It’s one of hundreds of Government Quangos most people have never heard of, mainly now tasked with keeping children from falling down overgrown mine shafts and…

thecritic.co.uk

It shows the way that Stonewall captures organisations, this example being the Coal Authority (the fact it’s such an archaic industry makes its funnier somehow) but also - like the Stephen Nolan podcast set out - what a bloody racket it is.

The boredom of new user logins and missing invoices does not prepare you for the mania and confusion of the Stonewall Workplace Equality Index, which hundreds of large corporations and government departments sign up to participate in. There are thirty pages of requirements against which Stonewall will judge your compliance. Here are some examples of what EDI staff across the country are being advised to implement across their workplaces:

The Coal Authority should not use gendered language. “Policies should avoid gendered language and pronouns, for example, by using the term ‘partner’ instead of ‘husband’ or ‘wife’.”

Good-bye to women’s right to single sex spaces. “Guidance must make clear that all trans employees can use the facilities (e.g. toilets, changing rooms) they feel most comfortable using.”

Non-binary identities need recognition and protection. People should be offered the chance to share pronouns at the start of meetings.


The Coal Authority might want to un-sex us all now: “You could consider removing gender markers and titles from your systems altogether.”

Staff should be allowed to carry passes identifying them as different genders on different days: “You should include at least one example specific to gender fluid people, for example the ability to have multiple passcards with different forms of gender expression.”

The Coal Authority should mark specific days in the LGBT+ Calendar: “LGBT History Month, Pride and / or IDAHOBIT (International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia)”.

The Coal Authority should have a formal programme to engage all non-LGBT+ employees to become allies. Also a separate bi- allies scheme, requiring “training, programmes and / or resources”. Hang on — “cis” people also need to become “trans allies”, so that’s more “training, programmes and / or resources”.

Spare a thought for the Equalities teams across the country who are living this. I wonder what the Coal Authority employees securing the safety of old mines think — the solidarity of men beneath the ground seems a distant and outdated memory.

 

[Pinkii]

If she has to do it for her job, go on the course and see what they say. For most workplaces gender identity should not be a consideration, like sex, except when there are practical issues like bathrooms. Ask the provider of the course how to deal with employees in training that might be traditional, unhappy with the idea, from a religion that has stricter gender roles and how to reconcile their protected characteristics with this if there is conflict? I think we’d all be interested to see what the answer was.

It’s a good idea to raise potential people who might not agree.

Think my friends issue is mainly she is so against it and she would hate to be part of the ‘problem’ to erase female rights . She has a young daughter and she doesn’t want her to grow up with this ridiculousness

She feels if she does the training and then has to provide others with the training on how to deal with it, its like condoning what is going on.

I definitely don’t envy her or anyone else in this position

 

[Vanelope]

I have young daughters. I live in hope this will be over by then.

In other news, Ashling Murphy’s murder has an arrest - a man in his 30s. We knew it was a man didn’t we… always.

It’s a good idea to raise potential people who might not agree.

Think my friends issue is mainly she is so against it and she would hate to be part of the ‘problem’ to erase female rights . She has a young daughter and she doesn’t want her to grow up with this ridiculousness

She feels if she does the training and then has to provide others with the training on how to deal with it, its like condoning what is going on.

I definitely don’t envy her or anyone else in this position

In the end she is providing training to adults - not kids. It’s the least amount of influence because most people on that sort of course will switch off and not pay attention or change their minds. We can’t all be JK Rowling - we don’t have her resources.

 

[thegirlscout]

Saw this on Twitter - granted I don’t know much about Germaine Greer but this doesn’t seem at all feminist?! This is about FGM

 

[Vanelope]

Forgive me for adding on again - but if your friend can invent ‘Agatha from admin’ who is distressed about a 6ft trans woman in her bathrooms or even unisex bathrooms and see how that is dealt with. You can’t call everyone TERFs in a professional setting.

 

[emm]

Saw this on Twitter - granted I don’t know much about Germaine Greer but this doesn’t seem at all feminist?! This is about FGM
View attachment 997428

Does she even understand what fgm is?!

 

[Vanelope]

It was published in 1999. Maybe her views have changed - the 90s were generally fucked up for women

 

[weeweegie]

Saw this on Twitter - granted I don’t know much about Germaine Greer but this doesn’t seem at all feminist?! This is about FGM
View attachment 997428

Germaine Greer is the original feminist and persona non grata these days. She’s hated by the TRAs as she’s spoken out against their beliefs. I haven’t looked closely at this quote but I actually wouldn’t put it past TRAs to invent things she’s said to try and discredit her. I could be wrong of course.

 

[nothanksbabes]

I have a copy of The Whole Woman, don't think I've read it for at least 18 years. If I can find that part in the book I'll report back.

I think there is an argument that FGM is a cultural practice that is desired by/motivated by women, much like women in the West will undergo cosmetic surgery, even labiaplasty etc. and it's hypocritical to think breast implants are an acceptable "choice" because they're a cultural norm for us but forms of female body modification in other cultures are mutilation.

Obviously this doesn't apply to children being operated on. I also don't necessarily share the above view, but I can see how it might fit in the context of the quote.

 

[emm]

I have a copy of The Whole Woman, don't think I've read it for at least 18 years. If I can find that part in the book I'll report back.

I think there is an argument that FGM is a cultural practice that is desired by/motivated by women, much like women in the West will undergo cosmetic surgery, even labiaplasty etc. and it's hypocritical to think breast implants are an acceptable "choice" because they're a cultural norm for us but forms of female body modification in other cultures are mutilation.

Obviously this doesn't apply to children being operated on. I also don't necessarily share the above view, but I can see how it might fit in the context of the quote.

i think difference between fgm and plastic surgery is tje intention behind them, plastic surgery is just about charging appearance, that is not what fgm is about at all, not to mención the conditions in which fgm are carried out, i doubt there are incidences of girls being held down forcibly while they are mutilated with a dirty de knife to make their breasts bigger

 

[Vanelope]

The thought of any circumcision on babies is wrong to me - I know many people agree with it for boys, personally I do not.

 

[Milliemoo99]

I have a copy of The Whole Woman, don't think I've read it for at least 18 years. If I can find that part in the book I'll report back.

I think there is an argument that FGM is a cultural practice that is desired by/motivated by women, much like women in the West will undergo cosmetic surgery, even labiaplasty etc. and it's hypocritical to think breast implants are an acceptable "choice" because they're a cultural norm for us but forms of female body modification in other cultures are mutilation.

Obviously this doesn't apply to children being operated on. I also don't necessarily share the above view, but I can see how it might fit in the context of the quote.

If its a quote from 18 years ago, Times have changed !

I vaguely knew about FGM 18 years ago, but not until the past few years have I realised how prevalent it is amongst certain communities and how young the girls are who are 'operated' on.

 

[thegirlscout]

Germaine Greer is the original feminist and persona non grata these days. She’s hated by the TRAs as she’s spoken out against their beliefs. I haven’t looked closely at this quote but I actually wouldn’t put it past TRAs to invent things she’s said to try and discredit her. I could be wrong of course.

It wasn’t from a TRA though. Seems she has some quite startling beliefs - she made a comment about child brides saying child brides are not expected to have sex.

Just checked and she’s defended FGM a few times in the recent years. I get that she’s a famous feminist but those views are trash.

If its a quote from 18 years ago, Times have changed !

But she’s made comments defending it more recently.

 

[Milliemoo99]

Some advice needed ladies- my friend’s job is providing training to other work places, eg health and safety or whatever else they need.

they have just been asked to attend a course to provide training on gender identity at work, now she is really uncomfortable with this and doesn’t agree with it at all and doesn’t want to contribute to this nonsense but she can’t pick and choose what she provides training for. ( leaving the job is not an option)

Any advice on how she can handle it without being labelled a terf

Surely it would be interesting to do the course and to ask relevant questions and to encourage others to ask relevant questions?

Elements of gender identity probably do make sense. The ones that are about its who you are that should matter, not the package or clothing that you wear. The idea of being supportive and accepting to individuals who are different to the norm.

But then add in ....what do you do about Sports? with people who were born male, competing in women's events. How do you ever balance out the physical advantages being born male give?

And ask where is the space to question or discuss gender issues openly? take in a copy of the JK Rowling letter, and ask what was so wrong with it?

And also ask .....how does wearing make up or dresses change someones gender? Are you automatically masculine if you wear trousers and a t shirt?

And can people tell anyone's birth sex, just by looking at them? I would argue yes! I have a game stuck in traffic in my car, to work out if I a pedestrian walking past is male of female, just by looking at the back of them!

And normally despite coats and nondescript winter clothes, its fairly easy, women have a different body shape, even from the back, to men!

 

[CheshireLove]

No one is correct 100% of the time. There are many people I find I agree with the majority of the time but on some matters I disagree. I find Germaine Greer on the whole a stalwart of feminism and I have great respect for her.

She does seem to have upset some people in 2017 on the topic of FGM and child marriage. In this interview (moderated by man, of course, who is supremely irritating and keeps interrupting Greer when she’s talking and she gets angry with him about this, especially at 40:50) she clarifies her comments. Worth watching the whole thing. Greer addresses her past FGM comments at 39:50 onwards - says she doesn’t agree with genital mutilation of children but that for adults, it happens in the West and other parts of the world for different reasons and that the practices are similar… I think she’s playing devils advocate here? Western women mutilate genitals through FGM (and cosmetic surgery?) but we should do only condemn non-western cultures? I think perhaps this links to her discussions around genital mutilation and how she considers circumcision mutilation but many don’t and it is routinely carried out in the US. Clearly not the most sensitive comments but I don’t think Greer could ever be accused of being particularly sensitive. She doesn’t seem to see FGM as a singular issue.



These recent interviews were fantastic

 

[klarakluckbag]

Saw this on Twitter - granted I don’t know much about Germaine Greer but this doesn’t seem at all feminist?! This is about FGM
View attachment 997428

Germaine Greer was a bleeping idiot then, and she's a bleeping idiot now if she thinks that FGM has anything to do with "self-decoration".
Mind you, she is right about "one man's beautification", it may be women carrying out FGM surgeries on their young female family members, but let's not kid ourselves that it's done to benefit anyone other than men. Men who don't want women to enjoy sex, men who want their child brides to be "virginal", men who want their daughters to be more valuable as marriage candidates, etc, etc. It's a revolting practice, and using the "cultural difference" excuse is just disingenuous. It used to be "culturally" acceptable to burn women as witches, to rape your wife, to beat your children. GG thinks that shouting controversial clap-trap makes people listen to her, but she needs to think before she speaks.

 

[Platformcrocs]

I'm still getting my head around it, but a statement has been released in the BMJ Sport & Exercise Medicine journal, calling for the International Olympic Committee to set formal standards for trans people competing in sport. This is to counter the argument from the IOC, who say that there should be no assumption of advantage based on someone's sex or trans status. The BMJ statement says:

"Testosterone is well established in the literature to promote the male secondary sex characteristics and is the primary driver for the increase in muscle mass, enhanced physique and performance for athletes. High concentrations of testosterone drive an increase in fat-free mass, which is responsible for much of the sex differences in sports performance between cisgender men and cisgender women.

The performance-defining qualities of testosterone are also reflected in the fact that the WADA lists testosterone as an S1 anabolic agent and ‘prohibits its use at all times’. Therefore, there is little doubt that high testosterone concentrations, either endogenous or exogenous, confer a baseline advantage for athletes in certain sports.

Hence, it is clear to uphold the integrity and fairness of sport that these baseline advantages of testosterone must be recognised and mitigated, as has been called for previously."

BBC article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/60038248
BMJ statement: https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/8/1/e001273