Gender Discussion #19

[nothanksbabes]

Worryingly, the people who take me most seriously on this issue are two straight blokes I know, one a friend and one a colleague. I suspect they're both more concerned that none of this ideology stands up to any basic scrutiny or logical analysis than the erosion of women's rights, but it's one of those things where my feminist friends will just say, "yeah but most trans people just want to live there lives". Well yes, of course they do, and in my personal life I couldn't really give a duck if I have to share a space with a trans woman. We'd probably get on. But this isn't just about me, it's about vulnerable women, the erosion of democracy, the twisting of language and ignoring bleeping scientific reality in favour of men's feelings.

I didn't just wake up one day, a left wing woman who has spent her life among LGBT people and think, "Oh I'm gonna change all my views today and become a bigot for a laugh", as if having this debate is fun for us?! But if being a TERF for defending women and girls is the hill I have to die on then so be it.

 

[Vanelope]

That's so gross. You know they're getting off on wearing period underwear too

Period underwear has been pioneered by female entrepreneurs and those things are expensive. So if they want to spend their money there are worse things they could do - like going through womens rubbish for used products.
However - normalizing it on a Twitter is completely wrong. It’s not affirming - it’s a fetish.

 

[thegirlscout]

They also seem to forget that “cis” women have been writing slash fiction on the internet for 20+ years and no one back then used to complain that they weren’t gay men and therefore had no business writing sex scenes

Also, did people see this on Twitter yesterday? Yet another woke period product company pandering to fetishists. They’re in so deep they can’t even see the absurdity of platforming a male wearing period pants to feel “more comfortable” during his fictional “period”.

This comment has me laughing - I refuse to take it seriously. Non man? duck off! The whole exchange under this is gold.

 

[Vanelope]

Canada has lost the plot

I’m sorry I read the article but the part where the university nurse refused to change his dirty diaper THE SECOND TIME.
I know there are adults who need to use these things and may require assistance. But as a nurse she should be aware of any medical needs of the students and having an adult man who needs changing would be something I would expect a nurse to be told at enrollment. Not something he can just request…. This is the waxing but worse. God these entitled and disgusting men putting women in these situations.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

This comment has me laughing - I refuse to take it seriously. Non man? duck off! The whole exchange under this is gold.
View attachment 917787

Oh god, imagine being that boring. It's all about control with these pricks, they love telling people off and policing the language of others

 

[CariettaWhite]

I didn't just wake up one day, a left wing woman who has spent her life among LGBT people and think, "Oh I'm gonna change all my views today and become a bigot for a laugh", as if having this debate is fun for us?! But if being a TERF for defending women and girls is the hill I have to die on then so be it.

EXACTLY. Hear hear.
My wonderful son is gay. Came out in his early teens. We couldn’t have been less surprised or more supportive.

My sister is married to a really lovely woman.

I’m what Stonewall would call “gender fluid” - in that I was an extremely gender non-conforming as a child, ometimes relish being all feminine and slapping on some makeup and wearing a frock, but still live mainly in “bloke” type clothes due to the work I do.

Do I feel like a woman or a man? No idea what that even means. I know I’m a woman. I feel like me.
I genuinely could not care less what people wear or how they feel about themselves. I don’t care who they fancy or who they sleep with as long as it’s with other consensual adults.

Why do people assume that someone like me would suddenly morph from an attitude of “You do you - fine by me as long as you’re not harming anyone” to being a great big bigot??

… unless of course they recognise that their ideology DOES in fact harm people, either directly (eg men in womens spaces) or indirectly as in the case of people like Grayson bleeping Perry (yeah, I don’t like being an unwilling bit part player in your AGP fantasies thanks mate).

… I have to say that it’s interesting, this thread, in that even though we can pretty much say what we like, I’ve yet to see any comments that could be deemed transphobic.
I was kicked off Mumsnet years ago for using the wrong pronoun for Katelyn Jenner (ie using the correct pronoun for his sex) and threads are often deleted fir transphobia. It’s pathetic.

 

[Platformcrocs]

Another mediocre male athlete decides they're female and entitled to compete in women's sport

Apparently people should be able to compete in the category they're most comfortable with. Nope, sorry. I couldn't give a tit if you feel "comfortable" in the women's category. You're not a woman and have no business in women's sport.

 

[CariettaWhite]

FFS. That proven unfair advantage is that you’re a MAN. That’s why we used to have sex segregated sports you absolute wick.

Another mediocre male athlete decides they're female and entitled to compete in women's sport

Apparently people should be able to compete in the category they're most comfortable with. Nope, sorry. I couldn't give a tit if you feel "comfortable" in the women's category. You're not a woman and have no business in women's sport.

i can’t even watch this hole trying to defend cheating. He can barely wipe the smirk off his face

 

[emm]

FFS. That proven unfair advantage is that you’re a MAN. That’s why we used to have sex segregated sports you absolute wick.



i can’t even watch this hole trying to defend cheating. He can barely wipe the smirk off his face

musy be very comfortable knowing you will probably win because of your unfair advantage

 

[maytoseptember]

For whatever's falling out of the grotty man-made skin wound he's pretending is a tina, presumably. Or the contents of his imagination.

There’s no way that Jay doesn’t have a pen. He definitely has a pen. The law of averages says as much. Very few have surgery.

Which makes the question of what Jay needs absorbent underwear for even more troubling <shudder>

I was disappointed to read this in that BBC article:

‘Kay doesn't believe a person can change their biological sex and says her right to be gender critical is protected in law’.

As if a biological scientific fact is now just an opinion!

I’ve seen this more than once by the BBC. Of course, framing it as an “opinion” makes it sound controversial by default. It’s really sneaky.

 

[klarakluckbag]

PERIOD PANTS FOR WHAT?!?!?

Haemorrhoids probably

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

One good example is the Hindu festival of Holi, one of the customs being powder paint being thrown around to celebrate the arrival of Spring, which has been appropriated by white people into music festivals and fun runs, with absolutely zero concern around how distasteful it is to demean a religion like that (and I’m an atheist who thinks all religions are nonsense). I just can’t imagine any other religious festival being appropriated in that way.

I don't think anyone can claim ownership of a particular custom. You can buy catholic-stlye prayer candles with the Real Housewives of New York on them. I'm sure devout Catholics may be offended, but we thankfully have freedom of thought and speech.

I can just picture those naff festivals with powder paints and people wearing binds and Thai fishermen pants. It may not be to my taste, but anyone should have the freedom to wear what they like and throw colourful powder around if they wish.

There were humans 30,000 years ago in a cave in France who blew coloured powder through a pipe over their hands to leave hand prints on the wall. These practices go so far back, who owns them?

Problems around these issues do of course exist (black kids getting detention for wearing their hair naturally, white kids don't). The answer, in my opinion, is to make sure this type of discrimination is called out and stopped. Not to put people into categories where because I'm a female, white European, I can wear x,y and z, but not a,b and c.

 

[thegirlscout]

I don't think anyone can claim ownership of a particular custom. You can buy catholic-stlye prayer candles with the Real Housewives of New York on them. I'm sure devout Catholics may be offended, but we thankfully have freedom of thought and speech.

I can just picture those naff festivals with powder paints and people wearing binds and Thai fishermen pants. It may not be to my taste, but anyone should have the freedom to wear what they like and throw colourful powder around if they wish.

I disagree, I think if you’re using part of a religious ceremony so you can get #aesthically tit faced or whatnot I think it’s insensitive and shows a lack of culture and world education. I don’t know, I just find it all ‘me me me’ - I want to do this and I’m going to do this - screw what everyone else thinks or says.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

I disagree, I think if you’re using part of a religious ceremony so you can get #aesthically tit faced or whatnot I think it’s insensitive and shows a lack of culture and world education. I don’t know, I just find it all ‘me me me’ - I want to do this and I’m going to do this - screw what everyone else thinks or says.

I think that's completely valid, but what's the alternative? To prohibit people from doing certain things based in their race or cultural background? Who gets to decide what is acceptable and what isn't and for whom?

 

[maytoseptember]

I don't think anyone can claim ownership of a particular custom. You can buy catholic-stlye prayer candles with the Real Housewives of New York on them. I'm sure devout Catholics may be offended, but we thankfully have freedom of thought and speech.

I can just picture those naff festivals with powder paints and people wearing binds and Thai fishermen pants. It may not be to my taste, but anyone should have the freedom to wear what they like and throw colourful powder around if they wish.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree then, because (taking Holi as an example) I think Hindus can quite literally claim ownership of covering yourself and other people in vibrant powder paint. I’m not talking about cave paintings, I’m talking about a very very specific annual spectacle which, until the 21st century, was entirely specific to Hinduism.

I mean look at this. You can’t deny this is entirely inspired by the Holi festival.

Color Obstacle Rush | United Kingdom | Buy now and save money!

Color Obstacle Rush is the biggest run in the world that combines the fun of colour and obstacles. Book your tickets now and join the fun!

colorobstaclerush.co.uk

That’s cultural appropriation.

Anyway, this is off topic so I won’t say any more about it.

 

[thegirlscout]

I think that's completely valid, but what's the alternative? To prohibit people from doing certain things based in their race or cultural background? Who gets to decide what is acceptable and what isn't and for whom?

I think this is a good discussion to have about cultural appropriation because those are all very valid questions that should be explored but I have seen on social media that there doesn’t seem to be a dialogue and if you ask a question you are shut down and made to feel like a fool.
For me I feel if a culture or religion holds something in high regard, something that is sacrosanct and I have no connection to said religion or culture then I shouldn’t really be doing something that demeans it’s value. So I wouldn’t wearing rosary beads as an example because I’m not Catholic and I would only wear them for ‘fashion’ (not that I’d actually wear them but because I have no religious connection what other point would there be).

 

[emm]

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree then, because (taking Holi as an example) I think Hindus can quite literally claim ownership of covering yourself and other people in vibrant powder paint. I’m not talking about cave paintings, I’m talking about a very very specific annual spectacle which, until the 21st century, was entirely specific to Hinduism.

I mean look at this. You can’t deny this is entirely inspired by the Holi festival.

Color Obstacle Rush | United Kingdom | Buy now and save money!

Color Obstacle Rush is the biggest run in the world that combines the fun of colour and obstacles. Book your tickets now and join the fun!

colorobstaclerush.co.uk

That’s cultural appropriation.

View attachment 918328

Anyway, this is off topic so I won’t say any more about it.

I agree about the religious aspect of things, somehow for me religion seems totally different from clothes or a hairstyle and, for example the colour race thing for me seems really weird. it is the same as if I go into a place of worship I would dress appropriately for it (not showing my shoulders, covering my hair if I needed to etc)
Anyway, back on topic, someone sent me this I don't know if it has been posted already, it is from last year https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/22/the-gender-heretics-are-finally-winning-the-terf-wars/ sadly it seems we have less to be optimistic about this year, what does everyone else think?

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

I think this is a good discussion to have about cultural appropriation because those are all very valid questions that should be explored but I have seen on social media that there doesn’t seem to be a dialogue and if you ask a question you are shut down and made to feel like a fool.
For me I feel if a culture or religion holds something in high regard, something that is sacrosanct and I have no connection to said religion or culture then I shouldn’t really be doing something that demeans it’s value. So I wouldn’t wearing rosary beads as an example because I’m not Catholic and I would only wear them for ‘fashion’ (not that I’d actually wear them but because I have no religious connection what other point would there be).

I appreciate that stance and I personally tend to act this way too. However, I think personal behaviour around this topic should not be regulated and certainly not legislated. On social media people tend to pretend there is a clear line, I.e. x is cultural appropriation, y isn't. I think often it is far from clear.

 

[emm]

I appreciate that stance and I personally tend to act this way too. However, I think personal behaviour around this topic should not be regulated and certainly not legislated. On social media people tend to pretend there is a clear line, I.e. x is cultural appropriation, y isn't. I think often it is far from clear.

yeah, social media is really not a good place to have such a complicated conversation

 

[thegirlscout]

yeah, social media is really not a good place to have such a complicated conversation

Which is such a shame because social media has meant we are more connected with people and can talk to people from all over the world. But there is this dark side about it which means even asking a simple question can send you to the gallows.