What’s disgusting about it? The murders, rape and paedophilia are disgusting, yes, and there have been countless stories about TRAs doing all of the above, yes. I’m not accusing you of anything; I’m saying that if you go down the route of “you support X so that means you agree fully with Y” then it applies in both directions.
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You're the one crying about 'disgusting' things we've said. If you can't hack the discussion, why have it? The rest of us are simply tired of women not being believed or discredited. What happened to I believe her? Seize on Lily Cade all you want, but lesbians have been saying this for yonks and many people haven't been listening. If people were 'fawning' over the article as you claim perhaps it's because finally the issue is getting some sunlight
Exactly. Literally any excuse to write off women’s experiences. Yet like I said before - tonnes of TRAs with guns and threats of violence and it’s ‘not all trans people.’ I’m so tired.
The article wasn't perfect. I mean, we have people comparing the article to 'what if this was said about black men, or gay men' but entirely missing the point that this culture of coercion is acceptable and applauded when trans women do it - they even have allies doing it for them. Example: Tas hmica To rok who bullied a lesbian into seeking therapy to cure her ''aversion'' to penises and was THRILLED that she had done so. She believed that this was her being an ally to trans people and calling out transphobia. No one is advocating that straight men saying no to gay men is homophobic. But people are 100% doing that for trans women.
Perhaps the article didn't do a good job of driving that point? Or perhaps people are just deliberately not getting the point.
BUT even before Cade was revealed to be a sexual predator, you already had people discrediting the article and calling the women liars soooo
As a lesbian who has spoken about my experiences on past threads, women are constantly discredited and called liars by the same people with #BelieveWomen plastered all over their social media.
Edit: I also just want to add - I absolutely believe Cade's victims. No ifs, or buts. However, the existence of her victims does not negate the women who've been victims of this coercive and manipulative movement. Who've found themselves forcing themselves into sex they didn't want because they didn't want to be labelled transphobic and therefore become a target of harassment. Or even the ones who were harassed, had their reputations ruined, lost their friends and support systems because they said No and refused to 'change their mind' to date someone who had a dick.
This is what makes the topic of the article so unique. While other groups, like fat activists, do the whole 'if you don't date a fat person, you're fatphobic' type of thing.....the consequences for saying no are just not on par for when you say no to a trans person.
Perhaps the article didn't do a good job of driving that point? Or perhaps people are just deliberately not getting the point.
BUT even before Cade was revealed to be a sexual predator, you already had people discrediting the article and calling the women liars soooo
As a lesbian who has spoken about my experiences on past threads, women are constantly discredited and called liars by the same people with #BelieveWomen plastered all over their social media.
Edit: I also just want to add - I absolutely believe Cade's victims. No ifs, or buts. However, the existence of her victims does not negate the women who've been victims of this coercive and manipulative movement. Who've found themselves forcing themselves into sex they didn't want because they didn't want to be labelled transphobic and therefore become a target of harassment. Or even the ones who were harassed, had their reputations ruined, lost their friends and support systems because they said No and refused to 'change their mind' to date someone who had a dick.
This is what makes the topic of the article so unique. While other groups, like fat activists, do the whole 'if you don't date a fat person, you're fatphobic' type of thing.....the consequences for saying no are just not on par for when you say no to a trans person.
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Also, Veronica, it's extremely rich for you to imply that we don't care about Cade's victims but then descend into 'how bleeping dare you, what a disgusting thing to say' yourself
Exactly. And the wiSpa thing. “It didn’t happen, the women are lying” to “it didn’t happen like that, this is just trying to discredit trans people” to “that person probably isn’t even trans anyway” to “that is a male just pretending to be trans in order to assault women”.BUT even before Cade was revealed to be a sexual predator, you already had people discrediting the article and calling the women liars soooo
As a lesbian who has spoken about my experiences on past threads, women are constantly discredited and called liars by the same people with #BelieveWomen plastered all over their social media.
And throughout this thread and the other iterations before it, loads and loads of posters have repeatedly said nobody hates trans people, nobody wants trans people to have their rights (not extra rights, everyone’s human rights) taken away, and that a trans person who commits a crime is of course not representative of every single trans person out there but it never fails to amaze me that one person says something and it’s seized upon and held up as an example of “THIS is what you support”? That other poster was the one that took it down that route and was then appalled when the same was applied to themselves.
It's even more depressing when it's women disbelieving other women. I expect it from some men. We're honestly going back to the days of people combing through a persons character before deciding if we should believe them. Actually, those days never went awayThe article wasn't perfect. I mean, we have people comparing the article to 'what if this was said about black men, or gay men' but entirely missing the point that this culture of coercion is acceptable and applauded when trans women do it - they even have allies doing it for them. Example: Tas hmica To rok who bullied a lesbian into seeking therapy to cure her ''aversion'' to penises and was THRILLED that she had done so. She believed that this was her being an ally to trans people and calling out transphobia. No one is advocating that straight men saying no to gay men is homophobic. But people are 100% doing that for trans women.
Perhaps the article didn't do a good job of driving that point? Or perhaps people are just deliberately not getting the point.
BUT even before Cade was revealed to be a sexual predator, you already had people discrediting the article and calling the women liars soooo
As a lesbian who has spoken about my experiences on past threads, women are constantly discredited and called liars by the same people with #BelieveWomen plastered all over their social media.
How many boys are going to wear a skirt anyway?! Presumably the girls can wear trousers...
ETA, sorry things have moved on while I was catching up
ETA, sorry things have moved on while I was catching up
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I bet not many
especially as its bloody freezing now.It's probably been done to accommodate one child.
I find often with these sorts of things it's one super woke person making a suggestion and the decision makers not wanting to say no (for various reasons) as opposed to any real numbers being in support of it at all.I bet not many
It's probably been done to accommodate one child.
It is regrettable that better due diligence was not done on one of the subjects of that interview - but it doesn’t negate all the other women’s opinions. And while it shouldn’t undermine the whole article, it does give ammunition to those who seek to discredit it. So hopefully it was done in ignorance not bad faith by the journalist. The unhinged woman shouldn’t be given any publicity for her ranting.
It's a pointless gesture that is easy to do- send an email around or a notice to parents and there you go, you've completed 'diversity and inclusion' or whatever. Much easier to do that than address any actual issues and they get to pat themselves on the back for being so tolerant and progressive.
People can do bad things and still raise valid points. These things aren't mutually exclusive. This kind of dogmatic idea that people and things are either good or bad or right or wrong in their entirety is half the problem with trying to have a conversation about this.
I agree completely but it is accepted in journalism that a 'bad source' undermines an article somewhat. Disappointing when you think how many people must have needed to approve that article.
especially with how easy it is to check things like this nowadays
Does anyone have the article where Lily Cade went off on one about transwomen? I can only find second hand accounts such as the likes of Pink News and I'm sorry but I trust them as far as I can throw them
Okay I found this:
Following her appearance in the BBC article, Cade’s blog, which had sat unused since 2019, was fired back into life.
In a flurry of new posts, five in as many days, Cade appeared to engage in extreme transphobia, with one saying: “If you left it up to me, I’d execute every last one of them [trans women] personally.”
So while that comment about transwomen being executed is absolutely awful it was posted *after* the article, not before?
And in relation to the sexual assault, I found this
"According to a unverified Wikileaks article in November 2017, Lily also admitted to sexual assault with an apology that included “I feel ashamed now, I thought that that girls went along with me because they enjoyed it, but they did it because they felt like they couldn’t say no”. The apology finished with a footnote pointing towards a Lily Cade email noting to get in touch “if you have been harmed by me and wanted to talk about it"
I should point out that a lot of these write ups are dated *after* the BBC article. Therefore it is actually wrong to say that this information was readily available and easy to find and that the journalist didn't do due diligence. We have no idea if that the case. From what I can see this stuff was spoken about after.
Okay I found this:
Following her appearance in the BBC article, Cade’s blog, which had sat unused since 2019, was fired back into life.
In a flurry of new posts, five in as many days, Cade appeared to engage in extreme transphobia, with one saying: “If you left it up to me, I’d execute every last one of them [trans women] personally.”
So while that comment about transwomen being executed is absolutely awful it was posted *after* the article, not before?
And in relation to the sexual assault, I found this
"According to a unverified Wikileaks article in November 2017, Lily also admitted to sexual assault with an apology that included “I feel ashamed now, I thought that that girls went along with me because they enjoyed it, but they did it because they felt like they couldn’t say no”. The apology finished with a footnote pointing towards a Lily Cade email noting to get in touch “if you have been harmed by me and wanted to talk about it"
I should point out that a lot of these write ups are dated *after* the BBC article. Therefore it is actually wrong to say that this information was readily available and easy to find and that the journalist didn't do due diligence. We have no idea if that the case. From what I can see this stuff was spoken about after.
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According to the Trans Murder Monitoring project, 11 trans women have been murdered in the UK since 2008. You can see the latest stats per country here: https://transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/ and their methodology here: https://transrespect.org/en/tmm-methodology/
They've noted that some countries such as Brazil and Mexico stand out due to the partner organisations in those countries working to collect data on a regular basis - I'm not sure there's as much monitoring in the UK. But it's a little underhand for TRAs to claim "many" trans women are being murdered because the current data simply doesn't match up.
And to go back to Lily Cade and the below: based on an unverified Wikileaks article from 4 years ago, you think the whole BBC article and the other women should be discredited, Veronicaa? Also if this unverified wikileaks article is the 'proof', she seems remorseful and apologetic. Calling her a 'sexual predator' like she's Harvey Weinstein is a bit much
"According to a unverified Wikileaks article in November 2017, Lily also admitted to sexual assault with an apology that included “I feel ashamed now, I thought that that girls went along with me because they enjoyed it, but they did it because they felt like they couldn’t say no”. The apology finished with a footnote pointing towards a Lily Cade email noting to get in touch “if you have been harmed by me and wanted to talk about it"
"According to a unverified Wikileaks article in November 2017, Lily also admitted to sexual assault with an apology that included “I feel ashamed now, I thought that that girls went along with me because they enjoyed it, but they did it because they felt like they couldn’t say no”. The apology finished with a footnote pointing towards a Lily Cade email noting to get in touch “if you have been harmed by me and wanted to talk about it"
I cannot comment on the statistics obviously as I have no idea, but surely this is a disadvantage if trans women want to identify as just "women", this means that none of these statistics would be accurately collected? As usual none of this really makes sense
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