Gender Discussion #16

[maytoseptember]

This thread is probably the last unfiltered discussion on this online, made up of women or mostly women (apart from Ovarit). I don't know how good the security is on this site- it held up against a dDOS recently so pretty good I assume. But it will become (and likely is) a target for those with a lot of time and computer skills who will inevitably come here, humdrum gossipmongers we are, as there are simply no more online spaces for women to discuss this left for them to hunt and shut down (except )

You are spot on here and I don’t know what I’d do if Tattle in general (and this thread in particular) got the MN treatment - not just DDOS attacks but constant trolling, TRAs making accounts to ask “innocent” questions, ingratiating themselves with us and then reporting what we say elsewhere.

I mean, I know it’s already happened numerous times, but it could happen again and more frequently.

At least the mods here aren’t cowards and don’t care more about advertising revenue than allowing their members to congregate and speak freely

Thanks for the reminder that I need to up my security.

So we have a future where anyone can be whatever they think they are and reality is denied. How is this a step forward?

And if anyone has any thoughts on the 'end game' here please explain to me.

I think you actually just said yourself what the end game is - nothing but full capitulation is acceptable. Reality denied, removal of sex based protections and rights. Biology meaningless, self-ID everything.

I’ve been listening to the Stephen Nolan podcast and found ep 4 on “non-binary” so fascinating. Owen Hurcum basically described life as a young “queer” gender-special person as a fun club with a dress code. If you need to signal to everyone that you’re a queer person (of course, the definition of queer is now so massive, it includes basically everyone who isn’t a cishet bore) you just need to dye your hair green and wear flamboyant clothes.

So it’s as we all thought: just a youth subculture and a way to feel different and cool. Modern goths. Which surely means it will largely fizzle out when they hit their late 20s? Does that mean we’ll never reach the end game?

 

[Mimble]

I said similar the other day and was laughed at for being dramatic…but if anyone can simply ID into being a woman, the category is entirely redundant. If misogyny can exist against people who aren’t female, as is now being claimed, again the female category is redundant. I have said this before here but I really believe this is the most important feminist fight of our lifetime. There is a very well documented history of what happens when human rights for one group starts to slide and it isn’t pretty. This is a human rights crisis. Expanding the biological, social, political category of ‘woman’ to include anyone who feels like it is simply an erasure of actual women. I fail to see how it can be interpreted any other way at this point.

This exactly. It is not an exaggeration to say we are fighting for our existence, not to be turned into categories of 'man' and 'non-man'.

Spoiler: absolute worn out rant

I'm sick of being told to 'be kind'. This is a men's rights movement and I wish more people would see it. I don't think people realise just how many men low key resent and de-human women. One thing that isn't raised enough if ever is that over the past twenty years men have been able to access constant and increasingly extreme pornography where the guy on the bus or your professor or your husband wanks over to images of women being brutalised on a daily basis, all the time. Women here in their thirties and above will be able to recognise there's been a real, weird, horrible sea change towards women lately. Misogyny has always been around, but its taken a shockingly callous tone over past 15-20 years and in some ways the nineties were far less misogynistic to women. Personally I put constant access and normalisation of pornography as the main cause for thus - something men never ever had before - before your average bloke had to slink into a shop, or stay up for a furtive look at the dirty channels. Now it's just a constant and also men regard it as a sort of divine right and unashamed of watching porn on phones in public, around women, we mean that little to them. Who thinks most porn men look at is playboy come hither eyes and big boobs anymore? Traffic and data shows that most porn most men look at is based on extreme forms of hurting and humiliating women.

With this background, alongside the entire history of the human race and how men treat women when unboundaried by law or social convention, why are we waiting for men en masse to 'wake up' and say by Jeeves, what a terrible thing! Something that means women can be mocked and humiliated with and controlled with, where they can be pushed out of jobs and shortlists and positions, something where if you fancy it you can walk around with your cock out at a swimming pool and if anyone says anything to you they are a bigot? What a dreadful thing! Call the Batmobile! Look how many (straight, average, everyday) men are lapping this up. Never before have I heard so many men be so vocal about 'feminism'. And if you think I'm going too far and probably a majority or at least a good chunk of men don't think like that, you are right. A lot of men don't think like that. They just don't care, instead. It doesn't affect them. They'll care when their sweet, shy, unhappy daughter tries to opt out of being a bleeder or cervix haver and school and state rush to support having her breasts lopped off and he can't do a thing about it. Or their aging dementing mum ends up with six food beardy for her intimate care, but not before then, not for the idea that women are actually people. Most men aren't going to fight this or raise a finger. Why should they? It doesn't impact them for most part, and I suspect a large proportion of the ones who are interested in it, the politicians who pile on the middle aged woman with better jobs than them (read: unfuckable harpies who need taking down a peg or two) are pretty gleeful about how useful it is for reaffirming the male status quo. I can count on one hand the number of men in public square being vocal and alarmed about this.

Your colleague isn't going to stand up for you when someone on your team decides he can use the ladies or breastfeeding room as well. Your husband is going to listen to a point and then say something thoughtful and insightful from his Big Man Brain like 'well, it's never going to get that far is it' and go back to scratching himself. Your MP will send you a paternalistic letter reminding you that, unlike you, he is enlightened and there has never been a case of a transgender woman assaulting any woman or girl in a changing room or toilet because of they do that they weren't really transgender women in the first place.


It's a men's rights movement now and frankly I don't care what it was before either. Men's right to control women, push us out of public life and back cowering where we belong, able to choke our careers with one word, to stop us speaking, subdue, silence, sexualise, demean, to reduce us to frocks and fucks, holes, bleeders, womb carriers, support and service humans for men, make us uncomfortable, flash and flaunt the threat of rape in front of us in public toilets, prisons, spas, and swimming pools, undo safeguarding for children (how can they speak out that they are uncomfortable and then told it's a lady not a man and it's your own fault feeling unnerved?), the right to be scared of a man who behaves in a predatory way by barging into our safe spaces and making us props in his fetish, taking away our refuges, our tiny secret underfunded places to limp to in the dark hoping no one kills us on the way, then when they get there they find that refuge is headed by a rape apologist male (Scotland), then the final insult is saying we are not women at all, we don't even have our suffering as our own, because what is a woman anyway, we decide it and whatever a woman is we define what it is and not you, and whatever that is we are better at being it that you.


To the virtuous women who handmaiden this, all I can say is that you will be dropped and turned on as soon as your use is done or you don't cater to whatever the next demand is.


Anyway, they just want to pee! (2015)

 

[Platformcrocs]

I've ordered Kathleen Stock's book - looks interesting and also total solidarity with her. Good point on the email associated with your account, I usually always use burners for forums etc so glad I'm not being paranoid!

 

[House of Tea]

I’ve always liked Professor Robert Winston. Is it me or do the audience not look impressed at all?

That audience did not look at all pleased with what he was saying, maybe that snapshot was a bit misleading. Did anybody watch the segment in its entirety.

Don’t know why I am putting this here, I am just a bit shocked. David Amess MP has been murdered at work.
I have edited his name - there was a typo

 

[emmer_moans]

That audience did not look at all pleased with what he was saying, maybe that snapshot was a bit misleading. Did anybody watch the segment in its entirety.

Don’t know why I am putting this here, I am just a bit shocked. David Eames MP has been murdered at work.

I know, I was thinking of posting this news here too, because I'm sure very recently someone said they worried about a repeat of the MP Jo killing, in this thread. In this hostile political climate I do see why so many MPs keep quiet about certain things because you never know which lunatics will come and attack you. Obviously we don't know "why" he was killed, but I would certainly be very scared if I were an MP

 

[openbook1]

I know, I was thinking of posting this news here too, because I'm sure very recently someone said they worried about a repeat of the MP Jo killing, in this thread. In this hostile political climate I do see why so many MPs keep quiet about certain things because you never know which lunatics will come and attack you. Obviously we don't know "why" he was killed, but I would certainly be very scared if I were an MP

I googled David Eames and I can't find anything about him? Am I spelling it correctly?

 

[House of Tea]

I know, I was thinking of posting this news here too, because I'm sure very recently someone said they worried about a repeat of the MP Jo killing, in this thread. In this hostile political climate I do see why so many MPs keep quiet about certain things because you never know which lunatics will come and attack you. Obviously we don't know "why" he was killed, but I would certainly be very scared if I were an MP

Yes, I remember that post. Soon MPs will hold constituency business behind screens and I would not blame them for that.

I googled David Eames and I can't find anything about him? Am I spelling it correctly?

Sorry, there was a typo, Amess is his name. It is the top story on the news however you spell it.

 

[Mimble]

Oh my gosh that is horrendous. His poor family.

I know he set up a group to raise awareness of and investigate endometriosis after one of his constituents spoke to him about it and living with it, which frankly is incredible

RIP

 

[nothanksbabes]

I googled David Eames and I can't find anything about him? Am I spelling it correctly?

Amess is his surname.

Really horrific. Nobody should run the risk of being killed at work. The man was just doing his job in his constituency.

Also, I commented on a post on another site earlier by a obstetrician who posted explaining why she uses "people with a uterus".

I have no issue with trans people being included, but I don't see how we can argue that "person with a uterus" isn't misogynistic as duck. Women have been distilled down to our body parts and functions by misogynist for time immemorial. Just call us "human incubators" and have done with it.

 

[maytoseptember]

Oh my gosh that is horrendous. His poor family.

I know he set up a group to raise awareness of and investigate endometriosis after one of his constituents spoke to him about it and living with it, which frankly is incredible

RIP

I didn’t know that, what a great thing.

I’m absolutely horrified. He was an MP in Essex for decades.

 

[openbook1]

As a woman with endo that is brilliant what he did. So sad he was killed. I wonder what the motive was?

 

[Wackie Jeaver]

As a woman with endo that is brilliant what he did. So sad he was killed. I wonder what the motive was?

Madness maybe? I dont know... poor man and poor family - 5 children, and his wife worked for him so she may have been there. Awful.

 

[Mimble]

As a woman with endo that is brilliant what he did. So sad he was killed. I wonder what the motive was?

This is from Wiki so might not be best summary or most accurate, but his initiative and power to really got things in motion top down. And on setting up a parliamentary panel staffed it with women:

Spoiler: Wiki summary

All-Party Parliamentary Group on Endometriosis

This section needs additional citations for verification. (February 2021)

Amess first became involved in this subject when a constituent attended one of his regular constituency surgeries after being diagnosed with endometriosis in January 2016. She highlighted that whilst affecting around 1 in 10 women, there was very little public awareness of the condition.

In March 2018 Amess launched an All-Party Parliamentary Group on Endometriosis with the aim of raising awareness of the condition, and to investigate how those who suffer from endometriosis can get the support that they need. The secretariat for the APPG is provided by Endometriosis UK, a charity which offers support services, reliable information and a community for those affected by endometriosis. The group was chaired by Amess, with Emma Hardy, Jackie Doyle-Price and Hannah Bardell as vice-chairs.

The experiences of those living with endometriosis have since been raised a number of times in the House of Commons. A Westminster Hall debate on Endometriosis Workplace Support was secured by Conservative MP Alec Shelbrooke on 29 October 2019, which saw MPs from across all parties sharing the stories of their constituents suffering from the condition.

Amess raised the plight of women with endometriosis in many debates and a number of times at Business Questions, most recently to highlight the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on endometriosis care and to draw attention to the APPG's report that was launched in October 2020.

The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Endometriosis launched an inquiry in February 2020 to find out more about the experiences of those living with the condition. The group received over 10,000 responses to its patient survey and held four oral evidence sessions where the first-hand experiences of those who suffer from the condition were heard.

The findings of this inquiry were launched in October 2020 and showed the reality of living with endometriosis, including that average diagnosis time is still 8 years. The report produced a number of recommendations to the Government on how to improve endometriosis care, including a commitment to reduce average diagnosis times, the implementation of NICE guidelines and improved awareness of the condition.

An online launch event was chaired by Amess on 20 October 2020, where Minister for Patient Safety, Suicide and Mental Health, Nadine Dorries MP, said that endometriosis was part of the Government's 'women's health agenda' and that she would work alongside the APPG to make sure that changes are made to improve the lives of those with endometriosis.

Industry and Parliament Trust

Also swayed and pushed for things related to animal welfare, like End to the Cruel Tethering Act, the Warm Houses thing after someone from a charity told him one of his constituents died in her cold house, I may be misremembering but may have brought discourse around resources for women to help in aftermath of stillbirth and miscarriage to parliament as well.

He was a social conservative, small c as well as big c, I think Christian/Catholic, for Brexit, etc. There's plenty he's said to pick at and disagree with. But we used to live in a time where you could disagree with someone politically and still be friends and still recognise the good things they were doing. He was well liked across parties.


I think he genuinely cared about the small and used his political clout and position and, in case in endo at least, his maleness to further causes that weren't big political house points.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I’m shocked about David Amess, how awful for his family. He seems like he was one of the few MP’s in this country who were doing a decent job of it.

There is so much civil unrest in the uk right now and has been for a long time. It’s getting scary now.

 

[nothanksbabes]

It's just awful. Looking at his voting history, I'm very far removed from him politically, but he evidently worked very hard for his constituents and was in politics for the right reasons, and honestly we need more MPs like that on all sides of the political spectrum, not less.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I’m shocked about David Amess, how awful for his family. He seems like he was one of the few MP’s in this country who were doing a decent job of it.

There is so much civil unrest in the uk right now and has been for a long time. It’s getting scary now.

I agree with this. Everything is very polarised these days, no tolerance for differing views, and it seems more acceptance of violence against those with ‘unpopular’ or ‘wrong’ views. I see ‘Tory scum’ is trending on Twitter - wildly inappropriate today. Bleak times we live in.

 

[openbook1]

I agree with this. Everything is very polarised these days, no tolerance for differing views, and it seems more acceptance of violence against those with ‘unpopular’ or ‘wrong’ views. I see ‘Tory scum’ is trending on Twitter - wildly inappropriate today. Bleak times we live in.

I think it's disgusting that anyone who is conservative or votes that way is called "Tory scum." It seems to be really common in the UK.

 

[Platformcrocs]

Just came across this video by Rape Crisis Scotland. It's the first time I've seen anything like this being targeted towards men. Hopefully we'll see more of this.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I saw that earlier and thought it was brilliant. Finally a campaign that focuses on men and what they can do to make the world safer for women rather than women constantly being told not to go out at night or not to wear ‘revealing’ clothing, which doesn’t stop us being attacked or harassed anyway. Hopefully it encourages more men to stop and evaluate their own behaviour towards women.

 

[openbook1]

Never thought I would be worried about possibly being doxxed for defending women's rights but here we are ... Email changed to something more anonymous.