Gender Discussion #15

[smeeflet]

Yes I agree with this (lawyer). They have only overturned the judicial review case, they cannot protect Tavistock from being sued eg for negligence of non disclosure of adequate information about risks of PBs on an individual basis.

I'm not a lawyer but a clinician. My reading of the situation is similar though. The judicial review ruled that there were no circumstances in which adolescents could consent to treatment with puberty blockers and that parents could not consent for them, therefore the courts would need to make a decision for each young person who wished to take PBs.

This has been overturned and the onus put back on clinicians to ensure that the young person has the competence and capacity to understand the consequences of taking puberty blockers before they are prescribed. So Keira or other young people would have to pursue legal action against those who they believe did not accurately assess their competence to make the decision or did not provide them with accurate information to make the decision.

As it is not the Tavistock that prescribe PBs (the endocrinologists sit within different Trusts) they could argue they are not responsible for that final confirmation of capacity and competence. I would however expect it to be shared responsibility as Tavistock clinicians shouldn't be referring to endocrinology without ensuring the young person is competent to understand what they are being referred for.

So, whilst this judgement is being wildly celebrated on Twitter I'm (mildly) hopeful that the statement about there still being room for litigation means there is not going to be a free for all approach to PBs.

 

[Zenchick101]

She’s misogynistic, racist and an overall horrible person but everyone who points this out gets called transphobic…View attachment 768707

Literally name any female model, iconic actress.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

I'm sorry but every single trans woman I have seen is absolutely fug with receding hair and bad make up. Get in the bleeping bin.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I'm sorry but every single trans woman I have seen is absolutely fug with receding hair and bad make up. Get in the bleeping bin.

And the ones that do look ok have had loads of plastic surgery. Most people can’t afford all that.

 

[Very traditional]

She’s misogynistic, racist and an overall horrible person but everyone who points this out gets called transphobic…View attachment 768707

This stared with Nikita claiming that"Cis" (I hate even typing that word!) women copy Trans women's style and that trans women set every trend - obviously absolute nonsense and there's been a lot of push back, especially from the black community as Nikita is racist with a lot of what she says and does plus a lot of the styling (wigs/ nails etc) look that some of these trans women go for is often inspired by black culture. I've watched a Petty Paige YouTube video on this today and Paige has been problematic in the past and a lot of people don't like her so she chose her words very carefully but she kind of said you can't have it both ways, why are you trying to pitch us against each other if we're all women? And that's the thing isn't it, they don't want to be equal to women, they want to be above us!

And as someone else said - the majority of trans women look nothing like women and their "style" is sex worker chic with a receding hairline, hardly aspirational

 

[Whatevesmate]

I'm not a lawyer but a clinician. My reading of the situation is similar though. The judicial review ruled that there were no circumstances in which adolescents could consent to treatment with puberty blockers and that parents could not consent for them, therefore the courts would need to make a decision for each young person who wished to take PBs.

This has been overturned and the onus put back on clinicians to ensure that the young person has the competence and capacity to understand the consequences of taking puberty blockers before they are prescribed. So Keira or other young people would have to pursue legal action against those who they believe did not accurately assess their competence to make the decision or did not provide them with accurate information to make the decision.

As it is not the Tavistock that prescribe PBs (the endocrinologists sit within different Trusts) they could argue they are not responsible for that final confirmation of capacity and competence. I would however expect it to be shared responsibility as Tavistock clinicians shouldn't be referring to endocrinology without ensuring the young person is competent to understand what they are being referred for.

So, whilst this judgement is being wildly celebrated on Twitter I'm (mildly) hopeful that the statement about there still being room for litigation means there is not going to be a free for all approach to PBs.

If the Tavistock are the ones providing expertise on gender identity surely the responsibility for assessing capacity lies with them? The endocrinologists would just follow their lead. There needs to be some civil action brought ASAP. Surely following the court cases and recent whistle-blower the Tavistock will be reviewing its practice

 

[judgejohndeed]

If the Tavistock are the ones providing expertise on gender identity surely the responsibility for assessing capacity lies with them? The endocrinologists would just follow their lead. There needs to be some civil action brought ASAP. Surely following the court cases and recent whistle-blower the Tavistock will be reviewing its practice

Yes, this is right, and in most negligence cases (there are exceptions eg private care) the Trust is usually named as well because they are vicariously liable for clinicians who are employed by them.

 

[smeeflet]

If the Tavistock are the ones providing expertise on gender identity surely the responsibility for assessing capacity lies with them? The endocrinologists would just follow their lead. There needs to be some civil action brought ASAP. Surely following the court cases and recent whistle-blower the Tavistock will be reviewing its practice

I would say it's joint responsibility. Tavistock can assess competence and capacity to get to the point of referring on to endocrinology but they can't be responsible for what happens after that point. Whoever writes the prescription is professionally responsible for that.

Essentially, in a good service (that doesn't just go for automatic affirmation) that should mean there are plenty of safeguards. The Tavistock clinic would assess and provide psychological support and if they felt PBs were an appropriate next step they would be assessing capacity and competence for the young person to agree to those next steps. Then when the endocrinologist assessed for suitability they would again check capacity and competence to make the decision to take PBs.

And I agree that the Tavistock should absolutely be reviewing their practice. This case plus recent NICE guidance show they surely can't carry on as they have been.

 

[emm]

Oh no I just saw this appalling news in the Mail

Children can take life-changing puberty blockers WITHOUT consent

The High Court previously ruled that children under 16 with gender dysphoria can only consent to the use of hormone-blocking treatments if they can understand the 'long-term consequences'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I can't believe we are debating whether children can decide to have the vaccine without their parents' permission yet this is allowed?! There is a reason we have a minimum age for certain things, consent, criminal liability, drinking alcohol, people who are such a young age aren;t readt to make big decisions

I'm sorry but every single trans woman I have seen is absolutely fug with receding hair and bad make up. Get in the bleeping bin.

I don't care what they look like tbh, what I find ridiculous is their OBSESSION with looks, women are not just totally obsessed with their appearance as they seem to think

 

[judgejohndeed]

 

[emm]

WTAF I don;t even understand this at all, how is the NHS, with all of the issues it is facing, wasting time on this?! imagine all of the money wasted changing signs/paperwork etc for this? definitely a priority when we are still facing a pandemic and a funding crisis. FFS I am SO angry. God forbid men feel excluded

 

[CheshireLove]

Women’s Unit = Transphobic

FFS

 

[Platformcrocs]

Link to the tweet below...I thought it was a fake screenshot because I have no idea how this was raised and then changed within a day, especially as the original request appears to be from a joke account.

Have they lost the plot?

 

[emm]

Women’s Unit = Transphobic

FFS

exactly, women only is transphobic, yet not protecting women is...?! I would say mysoginistic but.... there we go

 

[judgejohndeed]

What I find concerning is that there’s been a lot of talk recently about how a lot of women don’t know they have a cervix or what one is. The average reading age in this country is estimated to be 9 years old and there’s a lot of research showing that most people have an especially poor understanding of medical terms. How many women are going to know what obstetrics and gynaecology even mean? Making language MORE complicated in a medical context is never a good thing IMO.

 

[emm]

What I find concerning is that there’s been a lot of talk recently about how a lot of women don’t know they have a cervix or what one is. The average reading age in this country is estimated to be 9 years old and there’s a lot of research showing that most people have an especially poor understanding of medical terms. How many women are going to know what obstetrics and gynaecology even mean? Making language MORE complicated in a medical context is never a good thing IMO.

exactly, I (as someone who for a long time went to a girls only high school) had NO idea of female anatomy untilI educated myself as an adult! I just have no words anymore. A friend of mine has a daughter starting uni now, and she is just terrified she will be (in a new place, young person etc) somehoe forced into this madness

 

[Vanelope]

I would say it's joint responsibility. Tavistock can assess competence and capacity to get to the point of referring on to endocrinology but they can't be responsible for what happens after that point. Whoever writes the prescription is professionally responsible for that.

Essentially, in a good service (that doesn't just go for automatic affirmation) that should mean there are plenty of safeguards. The Tavistock clinic would assess and provide psychological support and if they felt PBs were an appropriate next step they would be assessing capacity and competence for the young person to agree to those next steps. Then when the endocrinologist assessed for suitability they would again check capacity and competence to make the decision to take PBs.

And I agree that the Tavistock should absolutely be reviewing their practice. This case plus recent NICE guidance show they surely can't carry on as they have been.

The chief exec of every other trust should refuse to work with Tavistock to avoid being sued. I don’t think that NHS should be getting involved in this at all.

archive.md

Latest Janice Turner - they turned off the comments

 

[HockyRorror]

What I find concerning is that there’s been a lot of talk recently about how a lot of women don’t know they have a cervix or what one is. The average reading age in this country is estimated to be 9 years old and there’s a lot of research showing that most people have an especially poor understanding of medical terms. How many women are going to know what obstetrics and gynaecology even mean? Making language MORE complicated in a medical context is never a good thing IMO.

Sorry to go O/T but was that a typo about the average reading age, did it mean 19? Or actually 9 years old? Did it take into consideration the number of children aged around 9 and younger or is that the average reading age of adults only?

The chief exec of every other trust should refuse to work with Tavistock to avoid being sued. I don’t think that NHS should be getting involved in this at all.

archive.md

Latest Janice Turner - they turned off the comments

The comments were there yesterday - I read them. There were 100+ and mostly all overwhelmingly positive and in agreement with JT and I only spotted two negative commentators, one whose name I recognise as he is quite obviously a TRA and posts in such a manner on every trans related article on the Times

 

[judgejohndeed]

Sorry to go O/T but was that a typo about the average reading age, did it mean 19? Or actually 9 years old? Did it take into consideration the number of children aged around 9 and younger or is that the average reading age of adults only?

Not a typo sadly. Just shockingly low. I have questioned this myself because Ive seen this cited in many research papers on comprehension (it was important for some work I did recently) but it doesn’t seem to come from a particular source. If you Google it lots comes up about it though e.g. https://www.see-a-voice.org/marketing-ad/effective-communication/readability/

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I’ve definitely heard of the reading age thing. Most people can read fluently but comprehension and understanding is a slightly different skill. At least that’s how I understand it. Not sure what the solution is though, is it our education system? That we don’t read enough as a nation? (Guilty). I also think critical thinking is a skill that’s lacking in society too and that’s partly why we’re in this mess. I suppose this is slightly off topic though, apologies.